Rally 07 wrote:
First off. Gokou's stamina was depleting due to him using Kaioken. Thank you for pointing out the most obvious. But all the same Gokou's stamina seems to not really be much of an issue at all. Mainly due to Gokou being able to repeatedly transform into his God forms and keep fighting. I know it's bad writing on Toei's part but I don't like to slap bad writing over everything like everyone else does. I see it as a pretty lazy argument to make.
Beerus claimed that in Goku fatigued state he shouldn't utilize normal SSBKK
and that he has only one more shot
before he runs out of stamina/ki which explains Kelfa being able to knock him out of the form with a single kick when she got behind him while he was distracted with his last Kamehameha. If you agree with this base what you said in the latter here, then you should may as well concede to the point that SSBKK Goku had little stamina left when Kefla kicked him, so it was due running out of more stamina why he got knocked out. Yes he was able to turn into god forms, but it doesn't change the fact his stamina got worse when going so far as to go SSBKK and it's not really relevant at all. I think you're underestimating his staimia considering the fact he can't go SSJ3 long, go kaioken x20 with Vados implying fullpower SSB would be too much for SSJ Kefla.
Rally 07 wrote:
Secondly, Gokou was most definitely not overpowering Kefla at all. He just got some pretty critical hits and did some damage to suppressed Kefla. And Kefla straight up said she wasn't even going all out and wasn't even trying to actually defeat and eliminate Gokou as she wanted to continue fighting him. You've provided no proof to claim Kefla wasn't suppressed and was going all out. If you think transforming into Super Saiyan was her going to full power, then you're kinda wrong. Mainly because that scene was more or less a plot hype scenario just to keep things interesting. But it does sorta mean Base form Kefla < Super Saiyan Blue Gokou. As she did want to transform against Gokou. But it seems that you may be implying Kelfa only stood any chance due to Gokou being fatigued which is quite laughable and very redundant and which has been disproven.
Yes he was, Goku in kaioken/king kai fist was able to cause her arm to go numb
when in just in regular kaioken/king kai fist
(which is around x2 or close) as he says it without the added multiplier. When he later powers up more she was failing to react to him move
and continues to overpower her initially to the point where she struggles to get up while damaged with the crowd worried even Champa whom is aware of her power
. Kefla never claimed she wasn't going all out she only claimed that she wanted the fight him more which doesn't mean she was holding back for the purpose of dragging out the fight. She wanted a longer fight that's all she's trying to imply not that she held back despite Goku not having the stamina to prolong the fight. Goku already told Kefla to max out when he told her to pump things up in which they both powered up to their max. Nothing suggests the she was holding back, it contradicts the point that she thought Goku was a worthy opponent, Kefla letting herself get overpowered or the fact the it took her SSJ2 form to surpass the same SSBKK Goku that was overpowering her. The burden of proof is on your to prove this claim that you originally made. I don't think transforming into a SSJ means she's at full power but with the various statements across the show and the fact she powers up more than once proves she's using her max potential.
It's was already made evidently clear that the reason why she could hold her own was due to Goku being fatigue, so it's not redundant nor have you showed any burden of proof to disprove this. In halfway of episode 115, when Vados claims that kefla at SSJ should take blue Goku carefully
, while champa responded that Goku was still fatigue
implying to why Kefla stood a chance which was due to Goku currently being fatigued in the fight and proves that a full power SSB would be too much, with no argument against her statement from champa. Just after that Vados question whether Kefla can take on
(not beat or win) fatigue blue goku(which champa already acknowledges in the conversation) in which Champa responded "yeah"
, even while further saying and acknowledging that he didn't know Kefla power as SSJ would be so powerful at the same time and it was a happy miscalculation.
Rally 07 wrote: And Piccolo and Whis both claim Kefla is both stronger than the Genkidama as a Super Saiyan and Gokou's Ultra Instinct from earlier as a Super Saiyan 2. Also this same Genkidama was likely much more powerful than Super Saiyan Blue w/ Kaioken x 20, it was enough to make Belmod concerned about it which could mean very well mean that Genkidama was more than likely Haikishin tier, and made suppressed Jiren struggle more than he did with Super Saiyan Blue w/ Kaioken x 20. This is openly and blatantly stated. It's apparent that you've haven't paid attention to Super episode 115 and 116.
First of all here are the actual Japanese translations of the scene in episode 116, which I've been given from someone whom speaks Japanese:
Kondo no hatsudou no hikigane wa osoraku kefura-san
The trigger this time appears to have been Kefla-san
Yatsu no kyoudai na ki ga...
Her gigantic Ki...
Ee. Genkidama wo abita toki no pawaa ni hittekisuru hodo no kefura-san no ki ga gokuu-san wo shigekishite mata hitotsu onore no genkai no kara wo yabutta no deshou.
Indeed. I presume Kefla-san's Ki, who rivaled his power when he bathed in the Genkidama, acted as a stimulus and allowed Goku-san to once again break through his limit.
Important part being "元気玉を浴びた時のパワーに匹敵するほどのケフラさんの気", in detail and somewhat transliterally:
"元気玉を浴びた時のパワーに" means "The power of when [Goku] bathed in the Genkidama"
"匹敵するほど" means "to be so much as to rival" (匹敵 means equaling/rivaling/matching)
"ケフラさんの気" means "Kefla-san's Ki"
So in other words, Whis isn't comparing Kelfa to the Genkidama, but to Goku when he bathed in the Genkidama. Most likely is that Whis is talking about Kelfa gigantic ki made Goku rival the low state he was to when he bathed in the Genkidama, especially when he was so fatigued he fell into the spirt bomb with his Ki being hard to sense and low under rubble to the point no one could sense it momentarily. It wouldn't make sense for kefla power to be comparable to the Goku low state but instead the effects as both broke his limit to the point he had no ki left. Regardless it makes more sense if you connect the rest of the context without disturbing the statement, as Whis continue to talk about Kefla ki being a stimulus that broke his shell which reinforces the fact he was comparing the effect(both pushed Goku into a low state) and role interpretation. Though I heard this could be also translated
to Kefla Ki compared directly to the spirit bomb but again, I don't see why it can't be interpret as role/ability comparison especially with what Whis says in the latter or the fact that he says "ki" instead of power. But in the end Whis is presuming something so he's not 100% or factual, just like when he though Caulifa was just a brawler but takes it back afterwards. Besides translation with further context of the scene or more credible feats to back it up, it was obvious Whis was talking about Kelfa having the spirit bomb role rather than literal power.
Even the narrator confirms that it was the extreme overall battle
that served to trigger the form
not a single attack/kick that rivalled the Genkidama. If you believe she's Genkidama level at SSJ then you may as well concede to SSB full power Goku or SSBKK rivalling that level too especially when she never powered up when she kicked him, so she was still at the same level of power when Goku overpowered her. Another point to bring up is that, in episode 122 Vegeta implies that Jiren even more suppressed than rivalling UI Goku(Spirit bomb level) was the strongest ki he felt even when he already felt Kefla's while distracted multiple times.
When Kelfa was powering up in SSJ2, Picoolo clearly claim she surpassed his prior level with the Japanese translation suggesting it to be more recent, which implies it being Goku's SSBKK. In the same fight you notice that UI fatigue Goku needed to power up a little to be confident enough to take her on which in prior even incited her to use more power according to Gohan which Picoolo confirms.
Actual Japanese translation of Picoolo's statement, in episode 116:
このパワー means "This power"
先ほど means "a little time ago"
まで means "until"
だったら means something like "if that's the case"
孫を超えてるかもしれん means "Might surpass Son [Goku]"