Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

Moderators: Kanzenshuu Staff, General Help

User avatar
Zamasu55
I'm pretty cozy, here...
Posts: 1682
Joined: Fri Oct 14, 2016 2:23 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Zamasu55 » Wed Feb 28, 2018 7:22 pm

TheUltimateNinja wrote:At this point it's starting to look like people will keep denying Goku is far beyond Beerus even if he one shots him at the end of the series.
:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:

User avatar
Zamasu55
I'm pretty cozy, here...
Posts: 1682
Joined: Fri Oct 14, 2016 2:23 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Zamasu55 » Wed Feb 28, 2018 7:23 pm

Bullza wrote:
TheUltimateNinja wrote:At this point it's starting to look like people will keep denying Goku is far beyond Beerus even if he one shots him at the end of the series.
Well Beerus was pretty good. He has some limited version of Ultra Instinct as well and was doing just fine against multiple Gods of Destruction at once.
The manga and the anime are different, how many times do we have to repeat that.

User avatar
Kenneth La Torre
I'm pretty cozy, here...
Posts: 1563
Joined: Tue Nov 14, 2017 9:38 pm
Location: Florida

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Kenneth La Torre » Thu Mar 01, 2018 5:03 pm

Zamasu55 wrote:
Bullza wrote:
TheUltimateNinja wrote:At this point it's starting to look like people will keep denying Goku is far beyond Beerus even if he one shots him at the end of the series.
Well Beerus was pretty good. He has some limited version of Ultra Instinct as well and was doing just fine against multiple Gods of Destruction at once.
The manga and the anime are different, how many times do we have to repeat that.
Lets just say that beerus can do what he did in the manga. He has a limited UI, while goku has a perfected one that only angels possess. And jiren will handle a limited UI opponent quite well, in fact, if he may be able to fight somewhat competitive against Mastered UI goku, if an entire episode is dedicated to that.

User avatar
Miracles
I Live Here
Posts: 2742
Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2008 10:31 am

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Thu Mar 01, 2018 7:55 pm

Zamasu55 wrote:
Bullza wrote:
TheUltimateNinja wrote:At this point it's starting to look like people will keep denying Goku is far beyond Beerus even if he one shots him at the end of the series.
Well Beerus was pretty good. He has some limited version of Ultra Instinct as well and was doing just fine against multiple Gods of Destruction at once.
The manga and the anime are different, how many times do we have to repeat that.
Only on what they are allowed to fill in. But both of the manga and anime's main plot points are the same.
Beerus most likely being that advance with UI in manga may be that way in the anime too.
"The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God."~Psalm 14:1

User avatar
TheUltimateNinja
I Live Here
Posts: 4020
Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2016 12:17 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by TheUltimateNinja » Thu Mar 01, 2018 9:43 pm

Beerus' UI in the manga wasn't even that good, he only dodged a few attacks before he started getting tagged repeatedly. It probably stops working once he gets hit.

User avatar
Kenneth La Torre
I'm pretty cozy, here...
Posts: 1563
Joined: Tue Nov 14, 2017 9:38 pm
Location: Florida

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Kenneth La Torre » Thu Mar 01, 2018 11:08 pm

Here’s something about power levels, but not to be taken too seriously, it’s meant to be cute.

https://ibb.co/bxwTtH
https://ibb.co/hy38tH
https://ibb.co/iEfA7c
https://ibb.co/bXfotH
https://ibb.co/i4Qcnc
https://ibb.co/mtKsLx
https://ibb.co/eAXCLx
https://ibb.co/gadV7c
https://ibb.co/bSxOSc
https://ibb.co/ePeEYH
https://ibb.co/dqHOSc
https://ibb.co/fFaotH
https://ibb.co/eg8K0x




Zeno: Infinite
Jiren: 9500
SSB Vegito: 9300
SS4 Gogeta: 9200
UI Omen Goku: 9000
SSB Goku and Vegeta: 9000
Merged Zamasu: 9000
Spirit Bomb GT Goku: 8900
SSB Kaioken Goku: 8800
Omega Shenron: 8700
SSB Goku: 8500
SS4 Goku: 8300
SS4 Vegeta: 8300
Hit: 8200
Nova Shenron: 8000
SSB Vegeta: 8000
SS Rose Goku Black: 8000
SS Rage Future Trunks: 8000
Frost and Freeza: 7800
Berserker Kale: 7000
LSS Broly: 7000
Ultimate Gohan: 6800
SS2 Caulifla: 6500
Freeza: 6400
Android 17: 6200
Majuub: 6100
Trio De Danger: 6000
SS2 Goku: 5800
Majin Buu: 5500
Piccolo: 5000
Roshi and Tien: 4000
Rebrianne: 3800
Caulifla: 3500
Chichi and Goku: 3000
Kale: 2800
Goten, Trunks, and Bra: 2500
Bulma: 800 or 300 (too blurry)

Hakaishins And Angels: ????
Smoke Shenron: ????
Great Priest: ????
Mastered UI Goku: ????

User avatar
Kenneth La Torre
I'm pretty cozy, here...
Posts: 1563
Joined: Tue Nov 14, 2017 9:38 pm
Location: Florida

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Kenneth La Torre » Thu Mar 01, 2018 11:09 pm

Those are official wafer stickers

User avatar
dbgtFO
Kicks it Old-School
Posts: 7747
Joined: Thu Aug 26, 2010 5:07 pm
Contact:

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by dbgtFO » Fri Mar 02, 2018 12:48 am

Kenneth La Torre wrote:Those are official wafer stickers
No Krillin??

User avatar
Kenneth La Torre
I'm pretty cozy, here...
Posts: 1563
Joined: Tue Nov 14, 2017 9:38 pm
Location: Florida

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Kenneth La Torre » Fri Mar 02, 2018 1:36 am

dbgtFO wrote:
Kenneth La Torre wrote:Those are official wafer stickers
No Krillin??
https://ibb.co/j3wZiH

Krillin and 18
Power: 3200

User avatar
Hugo Boss
I Live Here
Posts: 3205
Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2013 3:04 pm
Location: Brazil

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Fri Mar 02, 2018 10:03 am

Kenneth La Torre wrote:Here’s something about power levels, but not to be taken too seriously, it’s meant to be cute.
Is there a source for these images? Curiously, no mention of Golden Freeza, Evolved SSB Vegeta, Toppo or Kefla.

User avatar
TheUltimateNinja
I Live Here
Posts: 4020
Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2016 12:17 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by TheUltimateNinja » Fri Mar 02, 2018 10:21 am

Not like there's a point in knowing those meaningless numbers.

User avatar
Saturnine
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1471
Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2016 8:45 am

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Saturnine » Fri Mar 02, 2018 12:00 pm

Yeah, these numbers are quite horrendous :D

Not only are the differences in power laughably minuscule, their insistence on putting ssj4 on somewhat equal footing to ssj blue is shameless pandering to GT fans. Wasn't there one video game that took place after GT that wrote mere ssj god as something way, way above anything that came before it? Of course it being a game is just as meaningless as the levels above, but still :p

User avatar
Kenneth La Torre
I'm pretty cozy, here...
Posts: 1563
Joined: Tue Nov 14, 2017 9:38 pm
Location: Florida

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Kenneth La Torre » Fri Mar 02, 2018 1:34 pm

Hugo Boss wrote:
Kenneth La Torre wrote:Here’s something about power levels, but not to be taken too seriously, it’s meant to be cute.
Is there a source for these images? Curiously, no mention of Golden Freeza, Evolved SSB Vegeta, Toppo or Kefla.
https://dragonball.news/news/20180228100.html

It’s hard finding an official source for some reason. Tho I have this official one of UI omen goku and jiren with some TOP characters. Golden freeza I have seen, but the image is too blurry to see its power.

And like I said, it’s meant to be cute, and not too consistent. I would probably post more once I find official sources, but most likely not

User avatar
DB▪Magnum-Expert
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 280
Joined: Tue Jul 11, 2017 4:33 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by DB▪Magnum-Expert » Fri Mar 02, 2018 4:13 pm

SayianBeyondGod wrote:Again the burden of proof on you and please don't use what I already posted. Again you're neglecting the fact that it can be translated differently."元気玉を浴びた時のパワーに" - the most important part of the translation is の, which indicates possession of the Spirit bomb in which Goku was submerged in or alternatively Goku when he was submerged in the Spirit bomb which is what a JLPT 2 person told me which is the 2nd highest degree when learning Japanese in University. Your ignoring the fact that native Japanese people interpreted this as directly compared to the genki so are you implying native Japanese viewers is less than non-natives? Even herms believes that the statement is directly comparing Kefla with the Genki.

https://twitter.com/herms98/status/932063436527112192

You're only relying on a subjective view here, unless you have better translations or could speak Japanese in a JLPT 2 level or above if you aren't a native then you should just concede.
I can't read Japanese and I have no idea what your point is by complicating things, and Please, you yourself are saying this:

[spoiler]
SayianBeyondGod wrote:that it can be translated differently.
[/spoiler]

Also, you horribly played yourself here and kind of supported my point somehow:

[spoiler]
SayianBeyondGod wrote:possession of the Spirit bomb in which Goku was submerged in or alternatively Goku when he was submerged in the Spirit bomb
[/spoiler]

When you say "possession of the Spirit Bomb in which Goku was submerged in", this actually indicates Goku who was completely enveloped by the Spirit Bomb in which his shell just broke prior to appearing in the stage, but after the Spirit Bomb suddenly got compressed, while Goku was there. You're making it difficult to understand your point and makes it more clear to me. I want to meet the " Japanese Person" You're contacting if it's possible. I'm not saying you're lying and instead I'm very open to the possibility, but you're making it look like as if you're struggling desperately to interpret it differently. You also contradicted your own point when you said this: "Goku when he was submerged in the Spirit bomb", because the Goku who was submerged in the spirit bomb is not the spirit bomb Itself. The Goku who got bathed and done so is the Goku who broke through his shell which is Ultra Instinct Goku.

Herms didn't directly state that it states "spirit bomb", and he isn't absolute in accordance to your reference he seems far more reliable and the explanation given by you supports me.

If you want to convince me, then get direct sources and better convincing and word your thoughts better because it seems you're supporting me further. So the burden of proof is not on me, but on you.

Also, why shouldn't I use your translation you got? Maybe you need some credit?
SayianBeyondGod wrote:Yes, because the evidence I'm drawing are factual and are coming from the source material, I'm far aware that the burden of proof is on me at times
You're trying to claim that your argument can never be countered and will always stay correct whatsoever which is kind of hypocritical if you ask me, considering that your argument could easily be countered as I did before and will be doing now.
SayianBeyondGod wrote:Again it's unnecessary to add more scans as I think I already added near a dozen. But again I rather have better quality arguments rather than a quantity of weak or negligible ones.
Remember what I said prior to now?

[spoiler]
DB▪Magnum-Expert wrote:Well if you can't add more quantity with further quality in it then Kek I'm no longer interested at all. I'm not telling you to add the same thing you already elaborated on but it seems that's all you can get, so I'm not even gonna debate with you unless you get "inclined" to or somebody else comes at it. Sorry for being offensive, but when you said "I don't see how what I posted can easily been countered just because they're not long with no change of multiple made points", you sounded clueless. Making a bigger reply yet repeating the same points? I don't think I'd want that or waste my time waiting.
[/spoiler]

I already told you, adding more scans without quality is not what I'm looking for, so this here is an obvious accusation from you. I never asked you to add anything else if it has zero quality, but if you think I'm telling you that then it shows more than you're incapable of proving anything greater than this easily counterable "evidence"
SayianBeyondGod wrote:Again I already posted a sufficient amount of evidence from the show. I don't think you realize your arguments are very simple sentences yet you criticize me for have easy to counter arguments, you're relying too much on just scans here
Talking a lot uselessly equates to nothing more than rubbish. If you think your long paragraphs are really something else then you're the one who's unintentionally thinks quantity with bare quality > Quality content. All you're doing is lengthen your paragraphs which add nothing to the main topic which could be summarized by one scan. Relying on factual scans > useless arguments which go in circles without any reason
SayianBeyondGod wrote:I can simply win an argument with a few credible and disputable evidence, for example I can post 3 feats yet you post 8 statement which are all take out of context with dishonesty. You have a bad habit of bigger arguments> better quality arguments.
It seems accusation is part of your habit...? I'm the first one who told you to increase the quantity and Quality of it yet you interpreted it fallaciously and blatantly. If those 3 feats have a very weak basis then they hold no merit to the issue in the first place and those 8 statements which are factually taken beats you. No one in this post is taking statements out of context. In fact, you're cherrypicking what feels supporrive to your point which only depends on 1 single information which is quite funny indeed considering you're misinterpreting it horribly.
SayianBeyondGod wrote:No, it's not just about post scans like you're entire post is about, you're going have to logical draw interpretation off statements,
It's funny given that I never said I don't have to draw interpretations so that's more accusation on your part. Also, my post relies on scans which has statements which prove my point. You're only misinterpreting the scans.
SayianBeyondGod wrote: it got nothing to do with spamming negligible scans or evidence such as a scan of Kefla kicking Goku
You obviously seem to lack the reason behind the scans which means I'll have to explain things fully for you so you could catch on. There's no reason for me to place that scan for no reason but it seems you can't grasp the reasoning at all, which makes it funnier since you're trying to lecture me here before looking at your own mistakes. I don't mind being corrected but the way you're doing it makes you seem in denial, frankly speaking.
SayianBeyondGod wrote: or Champa calling Kefla a secret weapons and etc
That's not a negligible scan, you're just calling it that because your opinion can't handle it at all. You render things invalid based on whether it goes against your opinion or not which is not an element in a debate, and this gives a big impression on yourself. The fact that it is unrefuted and you can't refute it stays there. Furthermore, you also are telling me that I rely on one statement but your argument also relies in a single argument, which I'll showcase down.
SayianBeyondGod wrote:This is why you're lacking quality in your arguments and focus more on quantity.
My arguments do not lack in any of this, as it is comprised of quantity but in a quality fashion rather than neither quantity nor quality which defines your argument that basically nitpicks whatever the issue feels like it could be supported by.
SayianBeyondGod wrote:Being a secret weapon does not correlate to being to most powerful weapon of U6. Vados saw Hit elimination being a painful loss to U6 which puts them all in a bind(defines to problematical situation), so it's evident that Hit was the most important for U6.

[spoiler]Image

Image[/spoiler]
You try to use the statement for Hit yet you bluntly ignore the statement for Kefla just to suit yourself and move on fallaciously. This same statement is debunked by the multiple facts mentioned later that Kefla is Universe 6's ultimate weapon which will lead Universe 6's survival. That pretty much goes contradictory to What's mentioned before, and the evidences factually prove that Kefla is meant to be the key to Universe 6's survival.
SayianBeyondGod wrote:I don't think you know the definition of a trump card. Here's what google dictionary implies:
"a valuable resource that may be used, especially as a surprise, in order to gain an advantage"
In other words a trump card got nothing to with being to most important or valuable resource but rather a formidable one that is used as a surprise. Kefla for example was used as a last resort which was a surprise and was considered valuable to U6 at the same time.

If you look up other dictionaries on the internet they all define "trump card" in a similar way:

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/trump-card

https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dicti ... trump-card

https://www.macmillandictionary.com/dic ... trump-card
I don't think you understand what the definition entails or means.

Trump card is a surprise used to gain an advantage (an important part you ignored) to achieve success. Kefla is in no way a trump card if she is not going to succeed in making universe 6 survive, or at least open to the possibility.

Champa states that Kefla is a trump card:

[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]

Champa even states that a real trump card is saved till the end meaning Kefla was the secret weapon saved until the end when universe 6 becomes in a blind similar to the case with Hit, but Kefla removes that blind and makes it more possible to win. It is believed that Kefla will even beat Jiren, the one who defeated Hit (based on Jiren's released energy against hit, and Vados seems to agree completely that she's a trump card which I'll show down the process of my reply) and that she will lead Universe 6 to survival, which breaks your point completely.

Cabba states that Kefla is the secret weapon for UNIVERSE 6'S SURVIVAL unlike with Hit in which his trump card correlated with beating Jiren:

[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]

So Kefla is a trump card which will lead Universe 6's survival despite knowing of Jiren's existence but your example of hit is a trump card up his sleeves made to defeat JIREN, and wasn't a last resort for Universe 6's survival:

[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]

Definitions of Trump card:

[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]

Something not known (Kefla), and is to be an advantage which makes you succeed more than others (Kefla being relied on more than Hit). Hit was never stated to be the Key for Universe 6's survival, but Kefla was.

Also, when Hit's loss was stated to be a blind, Kefla's case was hidden from the fans. Similar to how the fact that Beerus held back against Goku SsjG was kept a secret for us fans:

[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]

Same thing goes here, because we're not supposed to know of Kefla yet.

Champa states that Kefla is a last resort, and here's a definition of a last resort:

[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]

A final course of action, used when all else has failed

Basically, Kefla is the last resort which will aid in Universe 6's survival if everything else has failed (example: Hit). This is obviously an intention showcased by the writers so we could understand that Kefla is stronger than Hit. And even then, Champa originally had Kefla below what she showed infornt of Goku and yet still considers her the key for Universe 6's survival which places her beyond Hit.

If you think that definition is unclear, here's a more clear definition:

[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]

So according to this here, Kefla is the only character which could lead Universe 6 to survival, when any other possibility fails.

A proof That Hit's trump card wasn't his existence in general in relation to the survival of Universe 6 is the fact that Vados noted that Hit's trump card is an attack solely implemented on Jiren for gaining a win against him:

[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]

So a trump card is an advantage you have that your opponent doesn't have which makes it possible to win or succeed, which Hit fails yet Kefla is rendered as a secret weapon:

[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]

Even examples in real life of a trump card proves my point. A trump card makes it possible for you to win, if all else has failed, making this "trump card" the toppest thing up your sleeves revolving around the topic:

[spoiler]Image
Image[/spoiler]

Kefla is also stated to be a secret weapon for Universe 6's survival. A definition of the term Secret Weapon:

[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]

It's something which will help them achieve something and is anonymous to others. Kefla is believed that she will achieve Universe 6's win over other universes yet Hit wasn't stated to be a secret weapon.

The following definition also supports me even further in which it defines a secret weapon as something which will give you an advantage over other competitors:

[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]

And if you check out the synonyms which could replace the term Secret Weapon, you'll see the term Trump Card listed and other terms which are directly defined as to be something at the top of a play or issue which will make you gain an advantage if everything else possible couldn't:

[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]

No matter how much you try, this brings your point down. The intention is that Kefla > Hit. Plain and Simple.

So not only does this place Kefla beyond Hit, it also proves that Hit is not the trump card intended for Universe 6 at all
SayianBeyondGod wrote:You're basically just reinforcing my prior points, Hit able to push Jiren that was putting the same effort against 110 UI Goku where as Kefla was said to be inferior to Jiren more supressed when fighting UI Goku from 110. So it obvious that Hit has better feats than Kefla which you pretty much prove yourself.

[spoiler]Image

Image[/spoiler]
I'm not reinforcing any of your points, you just think that's the case. You seem to nitpick your interpretation and are afraid to admit that it supports me so you manipulate its original meaning, as this statement is quite obvious in its meaning.

Vegeta does state that Jiren is beyond anything he ever felt:

[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]

But you're ignoring the fact that this makes the Jiren who fought Goku (unknown which one, but it makes more sense for it to be about SsjB Goku Episode 122 Which I'll explain fully later on, but I'll roll with your logic) above the Kefla who threatened a powered up Goku from episode 116, and the Hit who fought Jiren better than Ultra Instinct Goku Episode 110. You say specifically that Kefla is said to be weaker yet the statement was quite General on the matter.

The chain is now:

[spoiler]Image

(Note: this Jiren is the one who was suppressed against Vegeta at the beginning of the fight)

Vegeta being above Previous Ultra Instinct Goku is true based on this because his feats surpass anything Goku showcased:

Vegeta made Jiren wet himself when Vegeta managed to hit Jiren:

[spoiler]Image

Image[/spoiler]

Vegeta even trade blows with this same Jiren later on:

[spoiler]Image

Image

Image

Image

Image[/spoiler]

Vegeta > Goku is true. The narrator even confirms this by saying that not even Vegeta could defeat Jiren, but if Vegeta is weaker than UI Goku Episode 110, the same guy who is inferior to Jiren, then it makes little to no sense for the Narrator to credit Vegeta that far:

[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]

Also, Jiren being stronger than Kefla, Hit and UI Goku Episode 116 doesn't put Kefla at lower heights of strength. The Jiren who fought UI Goku Episode 110 (it wasn't that Jiren based on what s proven above, but Kek let's roll with your absurd logic) is stronger than UI Goku Episode 110, AND the newly improved Hit who combated a stronger Jiren. Does that even make the slightest bit of sense? No. Here you contradicted yourself, in which if you believe that Vegeta meant the Jiren who fought Ultra Instinct Goku, you are implying that Jiren Episode 111 > Jiren Episode 110 > Hit Episode 111 > Jiren Episode 111? What? This breaks your absurd point completely. Besides, Jiren struggling against Goku on Episode 110 would only prove how strong the ability of ultra instinct is.

Goku fought Jiren enough already to be rendered as a fight:

[spoiler]Image

Image

Image[/spoiler]

On Episode 123, SsjB Goku combats a Jiren who is far beyond what he has ever shown previously. This is a proof that Goku does get stronger throughout the Tournament which would make sense given he combated Kefla who is very well shown to be above anything Universe 6 has shown.

Goku and Vegeta are shocked that Jiren could walk right through Goku's traps as if it's something amazing, despite tanking attacks which are "supposed" to be better (implying Goku magically got stronger, though this is further supported down the road) (The reaction of Goku, and Vegeta's wonder is the surprise)

[spoiler]Image

Image[/spoiler]

Goku fights Jiren while having his aura visible around him (never has Jiren done that before while fighting, and Jiren supposedly is ticked of due to what Goku did to him, which made him far more serious):

[spoiler]Image

Image[/spoiler]

Jiren becomes more than just serious, and Vermouth comments that he senses a rise in Jiren and that he never has seen him that serious in a VERY LONG TIME:

[spoiler]Image

Image

Image

Image[/spoiler]

This Jiren far surpasses anything Jiren has showed before, and Goku powers up, actually trading blows with that same Jiren:

[spoiler]Image

Image

Image

Image[/spoiler]

Jiren got even more serious, by showing a hint of his power only, thus returning Goku to his base form

Jiren's "hint" of his real power is the strongest thing Goku ever felt and witnessed:

[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]

Goku goes Kaioken x20 (It's stated he goes full power), and Beerus believes that Goku has a shot against this same Jiren:

[spoiler]Image

Image

Image[/spoiler]

Vegeta Also transforms, and both Vegeta and Goku attack Jiren together, and Jiren credits both of them to have become far stronger than before:

[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]

What I found interesting is that The Narrator states that BOTH Goku AND Vegeta are together in their limit-breaking forms, despite Goku only being in Kaioken x20, and the fact that Goku has already stated that he got the hang of Ultra Instinct (which originally is his limit breaking power, which has pushed Goku into ultimately new heights, yet Kaioken x20 {episode 123} transcends beyond that):

[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]

Apparently This case has shifted far beyond than whether current SsjB Goku or Vegeta surpassed Ultra Instinct Goku on Episode 110, into how much did they get stronger.

Unless by your logic you're saying that UI Goku on Episode 110 is stronger than Hit, Kefla and Aniraza and so on then you're contradicting yourself since you agree with me on Hit being above UI Goku from episode 110. This is what happens when you nitpick your answer as you chose Kefla to be part of the statement when that statement involves everybody so it makes far more sense for it to be about Goku from episode 122 (when Vegeta said he's stronger when he fought Goku) than from Episode 110.

This does make sense given that we see Goku fight Kefla who is written to be above Hit which at this point is quite evident enough for us. Goku is shown in the Tournament of Power to get stronger each time he fights, and far stronger than before at that. As for your stamina argument, I'll debunk It later on. This establishes that Goku gets stronger the more he fights or break his shells. This is even more evident as Goku even gets somehow stronger in later episodes after the narrator states that Goku and Vegeta are fighting in their limit breaking forms. Based on What's shown above, IT'S OBVIOUS Vegeta is talking about Goku. The reason he'd use more power is because he already saw Goku's Power prior to that and expects it to be far better Vegeta's whom he never battled before which explains the scenario we're currently facing.

I'll answer you on this topic now:

[spoiler]
SayianBeyondGod wrote:There's multiple things to address here. Beside the fact that Ui Goku was already fatigue, his stamina got worse as he was panting after hitting Kefla a bunch of times. It was stated at the same time he had to finish it with a kamekameka hence why he was vulnerable. It should be noted she was using all of her power while bloodlusted. It's consistent that characters when in the same state can exceed their limits such as Vegeta final flash against Jiren or Cell, if not when he was matching Goku's kamekameka with x3 kaioken with his galick gun or like when Goku overpowered fused Zamasu ki attack. It's doesn't take much power to harm someone much stronger as Krillin has harmed Frezia with the destructo disk or Vegeta big bang harming Cell when facing kid Gohan in a kamekameka clash.

Image
[/spoiler]

You sure do have a weird definition of stamina don't you? Stamina doesn't indicate power loss in the slightest. Your power doesn't necessarily get less when your stamina decreases, but your ability to continue a certain activity depending on context or situation. You're speculating that the word relates to strength despite the disagreement being quite obvious.

Here's the definition of the term Stamina:

[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]

This doesn't support you in any possible way. It is the ability to sustain an effort, which has nothing to correlate with strength in the slightest, given that effort doesn't equate to strength at all. In Goku's case, the effort here is about whether he's capable of staying transformed and do the same activity as he did prior to his situation (fighting at the same pace). Goku fought as usual and was capable of withstanding SsjB for quite a while and hasn't even noted that he isn't fighting like before or that he lost strength.

It is endurance,The ability to sustain a prolonged stressful effort or activity, which makes it make much more sense given that we see Kefla fighting SsjB Goku and calling him a worthy opponent now that we're open to the possibility that Goku got stronger. Stamina can also be defined as the physical strength (staying power) or mental strength to do something that might be difficult:

[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]

Someone who might be weaker than you strength wise might be capable of running far longer distances than you thus having more Stamina, so by your logic that certain person who can run faster than you should also be more powerful than you although both terms don't correlate to the power to beat somebody else. You might outlast somebody with your superior Stamina, but that doesn't equate to being equal or stronger than that certain somebody.

Here's a good difference for each:

[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]

This directly explains that stamina is how much resistance you have to continuously doing an exercise for a long time while strength refers to the quality of being strong, or in another simpler sense: how strong you are. So in Goku's case, Goku' stamina might not be able to last a long time staying as SsjB and fight for long against a powerful enemy like Kefla in the same since of continuous activity. That's why they comment about stamina when Goku transforms into SsjB rather than anything relating to power; they are asking whether Goku is capable of eduring SsjB as a transformation, given it's a transformation which burns stamina quickly:

[spoiler]Image
Image
Image[/spoiler]

This also answers what you said here, in which you didn't even grasp what that scan's reason was for, despite the reason being explained:

[spoiler]
DB▪Magnum-Expert wrote:And SsjB is a form which drains stamina:
SayianBeyondGod wrote:I don't see what you're trying to dismiss here, but it's even worse when Goku was already in a fatigue state to begin with.
[/spoiler]

This also debunks your utter speculation that you tried to pull out of something which has nothing to do with stamina in the first place, just so that it supports your own speculative thoughts:

[spoiler]
SayianBeyondGod wrote:In the Super Exciting Guide: Story Volume Toriyama says ki is made of genki(energy), yuuki(bravery), and shouki(ones right mind). Genki is the main pull away from this paragraph. Ki is your energy, so Ki and stamina are practically the same thing.
[/spoiler]

Since You've been debunked here based on your awful interpretations of the terms Stamina, you have no evidence that Goku got weaker in the slightest but there is proof that Goku gets stronger each time he fights which I'll show later on. With this, you have lost ALL OF your argument basis here
SayianBeyondGod wrote:No, Champa and Vados was talking about SSJ Kefla as this statement literally came after she transformed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CQFuS1BQv5s
No, I don't know how you even say that given that the link you linked me shows that the statement doesn't come from there.

Champa's statement comes from here:

https://youtu.be/hja-z7FAKPg 1:35

This is when base Kefla arrived. This is the scan I'm talking about:

[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]
SayianBeyondGod wrote:Again, all the spectators have being implying that Goku was fatigue which has been affected his performance. Being fatigue does correlate to weaker power even Vados thinks SSB Goku if at full power may be too much for Kefla which implies Goku is lacking in power and the rest of his ki abilities.
No, all the spectators have been implying that Goku's stamina has decreased after his fight with Jiren. Nowhere does anyone say he got weaker. When Goku reverted back from Ultra Instinct, he lost the transformation again but he got more powerful despite having his stamina drained. Android 17 fails to escape the black hole made from the fighters from Universe 2 yet SsjB Goku stands up and frees himself with a Kamehameha (the same Goku from Episodes 122 to 123 {at the very least}) and this is the same Android 17 who later on damages Aniraza for a moment:

[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]

So Goku gets stronger the more he fights or breaks his limit breaking shells. Evidence that he gets stronger the more he break his shells is What' implied by Whis, and Logic itself. Whis states that Goku broke into another one of his self-limiting shells which implies Goku has more than one self-limiting shell and that he already broke through one and now he broke through another and so since they're not the same potential limits it's bound to have a difference. If we say that Character A has 4 self-limiting shells and he broke the first one, the second time he'd break the second shell, which makes much more since for it to be stronger, since the first level of limits has broken and so another higher level of limits has to be broken with more effort. So what Kefla did is superior to Goku's Power in every possible way:

[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]

So what you're saying is absolutely wrong and speculation on your own part.

This also breaks your point here:

[spoiler]
SayianBeyondGod wrote:Your point is the contraction here, nowhere it was implied that Jiren changed the amount of effort when he just fought Goku earlier, why would he use more power against Goku in SSB than Vegeta, it makes less sense. That fact Vegeat did better than 122 Goku proves Jiren would need to put in more effort. Even Belmod was worried, why would he be worried if Jiren was able to put in more effort against SSB Goku. Vegeta calls out that Jiren has the strongest Ki so are you implying SSB Goku now surpasses 110 Goku, SSJ2 Kefla, fused Zamasu? I mean Goku even later in 123 could not breach Jiren barrier like Vegeta did so it's clear that Jiren would need to put more effort against Vegeta. It happened to early to be considering a past tense if you ask me.
[/spoiler]
SayianBeyondGod wrote:Why did Goku become tired in the original Dragon Ball after using the Kamehameha too many times?
Because it consumes lots of Ki, thus decreasing his Ki output, when it's excessively used. Simple as that
SayianBeyondGod wrote:Why was Goku incredibly tired after the Instant Transmission Kamehameha wave on Cell?
Goku was getting stomped by cell prior to that which lead him to lose more strength and couldn't hold his own against Cell at all. Also, Goku used a full power Kamehameha which condenses all of his Ki into a single point reducing his Ki dramatically as he unleashes it at one go. Kamehameha Full Power reduces power and stamina together:

[spoiler]Image
Image[/spoiler]
SayianBeyondGod wrote:As for lower stamina equaling weaker attacks, just look at real life, if you’re extremely tired you run slower and punch weaker. As shown in the RoF arc when Golden Freeza was exhausted from Ki drain from the Golden form he tries to punch Goku in the face but Goku simply tanks it with no problem.

https://youtu.be/K8YSw8J5rAg?t=628
When your stamina decreases you don't get weaker as in unable to exert the same attack potency as you do with your stamina at its fullest, but it depends on whether your stamina is enough to make you capable of exerting that same force again at the same pace and power as previously when stamina loss is not an issue. This is almost the same case as Goku in which his attacks aren't really weakened, but it's about whether his stamina could hold out so much as to stay in his transformed states and output the same power he do with stamina not being an issue at all. Frieza's case is not an example in the slightest because Golden Frieza's weakness is that it drains stamina and his Ki.
SayianBeyondGod wrote:Anytime Goku just says Kaioken(like he did in the fight with kelfa), he's just using normal Kaioken. Even in the battle with Hit, he specifically explains this as after just saying "kaioken" and using the technique, he explains he starts off doubling his abilities. Does Goku need to say the kaioken multiplier to let us know which level of multiplication he's using? no
But when he says kaioken, it's expected for him to also say x10 or x20 if not at all hence being just normal kaioken.

[spoiler]Image
Image[/spoiler]
Placing these scans for no reason is not really gonna prove anything, so if you thought these are quality scans then don't, so you no obligation to say my scans are unneeded like you said later on. I'm far more aware than you think and possibly more than you considering you started accusing me of my tactics and then acted intilligient just so that you get debunked like this. Anyways, Goku states that he needs to go full power or things would go badly so it makes little to no sense for him to hold back as you're claiming:

[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]

Also, you seem to ignore the fact that Goku is shown to have powered up more in SsjB Kaioken directly on screen. Goku went Kaioken against Kefla, but then both Kefla and Goku decide to power up further to heighten up the level of the fight and pump things up when then, on screen, are shown powering up further so Goku is beyond SsjB Kaioken. Goku already said he'd have to go full power, Whis states that Goku said who couldn't defeat her unless he tries using Kaioken but at the end of it Beerus states Goku needs to end the fight with Goku's last shot so Goku had to try all he had at that last shot but failed:

[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]
SayianBeyondGod wrote:This only telling us Kefla is strong vaguely.
No it does not tell us Kefla's power vaguely, you just want to dismiss this for no reason so don't try. Everyone's reaction about Kefla' power far surpassed Everyone's reaction to Goku's Power and everyone can sense God Ki in the Tournament of Power. In fact, Hit was shocked and surprised of Kefla's power:

[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]

The fact that Hit is shocked of all people makes the validity of this scan far more than you claim it ain't because you can't comprehend what this shows. This acts as a supporter to the Kefla > Hit case and the reaction from the crowd far surpasses the reaction about Kefla, making everyone worried. Don't try to dismiss valid points because they go against your point, that's a horrible tactic you do, so before you Try lecture me about my tactics which have non of the flaws you're mentioning, look at yours which are more horrible than what you're claiming on, cherrypicking your arguments while dismissing most of the things which go against you.
SayianBeyondGod wrote:Where does it imply this? All what's happening in the context is that the crowd is surprised Goku has this amount of stamina left. I don't know how you can conclude that they were worried that he couldn't stabilize the form without much context. You're just contradicting your own points here, if you really think the crowd was concern about SSB being drain then it's more reason to doubt Goku in his state could go Kaioken x20 or close.
Again no. You're the one who's speculating that it's about power. I actually meant to say this:

[spoiler]
DB▪Magnum-Expert wrote:For the Stamina Point, Goku wasn't weakened power wise, They were just worried because Goku could barely hold the SsjB Transformation:
[/spoiler]

Second, we CAN conclude and we have enough context. Stop trying to dismiss points and claim they are missing some extra info despite the available info is more than enough but it seems it hurts you at this point. Goku is directly stated to have his stamina decreased, but at the same time he goes SsjB which is burns stamina quickly and that's stated by Goku himself directly which I showed previously. The fact that Goku could go SsjB despite haven't recovering his stamina fully yet makes it obvious enough that they are worried about Goku's stamina holding out the transformation itself since SsjB is an issue in relation to stamina and not power so I'd advice you look at the context carefully rather than claim they aren't usable:

[spoiler]Image
Image[/spoiler]

You're point is null here. They directly mention stamina in relevance to the transformation as stated by Krillin yet they say nothing about SsjG, unless you want to imply Ssj3 Goku is Stronger Than SsjG Goku because he couldn't maintain the form due to stamina issues.
SayianBeyondGod wrote:No it's not if anything your points are, how could Hit put up a fight against Jiren that rivalled UI 110 Goku yet being inferior to Kefla that is weaker than Jiren that was more supressed. You entire argument here relies on the "trump card" statement which is take out of context.
YES IT IS you just think this solidifies your points for no reason at all. You just like to assume that no one is stronger than before don't You? It is quite evident enough that characters are far beyond what they've already shown themselves and especially Goku, has become even stronger which is far supported than your misinterpreted argument which depends on one single source, which is stamina despite you taking its definition out of context yourself. Jiren didn't rival the Goku from episode 110, he's far beyond him. It was the fact that Ultra Instinct in general as a transformation is OP Which allowed him to combat with Jiren long enough. The Trump Card argument has far more supports, proofs and evidences than your baseless stamina argument which you yourself have no idea what does it incite on.
SayianBeyondGod wrote:Again Goku was fatigue there's no reason to believe he performance was better even Beerus in the same time claimed that it was not a good idea Goku in his fatigue state using kaioken.
No where was it directly stated that Goku got stronger but it was quite the opposite. Beerus saying using Kaioken is not a good thing is obvious because Kaioken destroys someone's own body completely and burns stamina to an utmost rate which makes Goku unable to hold his Powers for long:

Kaio-Ken
First Appearance: Chapter 226
Category: ki manipulation
People: Son Goku
Special Characteristics: A technique that instantly amplifies the ki inside one’s body, multiplying all that person’s abilities, including power, speed, defense, etc. Since it makes one capable of utilizing battle power many times their own ability, it is extraordinarily effective during battles with formidable opponents. However, because it is impossible to multiply excessively far beyond one’s abilities, experimenting with an unreasonably high Kaio-Ken might destroy one’s own body. When the user’s battle power is 8,000, their limit is x2, and when they are at 3 million the limit is x10. However, since real battles are harsh, Goku often had to use Kaio-Ken above those limits. The Kaio-Ken’s designer is the North Kaio, but Goku was the first person to be able to master it. (Daizenshuu 2, p.212/ Daizenshuu 4, p.113)

SayianBeyondGod wrote:Why would Champa be underestimating Goku, he's literally witnessing him overpowering Kefla in front of him, I don't think you understand the context of what's happening. As for Goku's kamekameka they literally went through the ki blast and overpowered it
Funny, it's the opposite as you're the one who's taking things out of context throughout all your arguments Champa originally downplayed Kefla but she turned out to be stronger than before. Champa has already witnessed Kaioken Goku and SsjB but it didn't matter to him. Then Goku attacks Kefla and Champa thinks that he got overpowered hence getting flustered and so protective. It is quite obvious that he is underestimating Goku, as he thought he would get stomped but wasn't so which goes against Champa's original beliefs.

Also, the Kamehameha didn't overpower the blasts. I know this will be offensive, but It feels like this scene hurts you. The blasts from Kefla quite clearly stopped the Kamehameha and same goes for the Kamehameha as well. If it really overpowered it rather than equalled it or relatively close, then the blast would have kept going just like the final Kamehameha did against the Traingle Danger Beam:

[spoiler]Image
Image[/spoiler]

You're trying so hard now that you're desperate in which you started inventing answers here. Goku only had one shot against Kefla and he didn't need to waste it which is supported by Beerus himself yet he failed. Later she casually knocks him out and states that she wanted to match but since it's a match she ended it which says a lot but I'll leave it for later.
SayianBeyondGod wrote:Again you're taking things too out of context. Kefla just says she's far from done vaguely, not that she held more power back or anything related but then again she has a ego so statements could be exaggerated.
You're trying to dismiss this statement which says a lot but excusing it just so that you want to stick to your cherrypicked argument. It is not vaguely and she doesn't have to say "I'm hplding back!" to understand that she can yet apply more strength. Kefla says she's far from done meaning she still has her own tricks and own confidence in her power which is yet to be revealed and simply starts out as Ssj where her casual blasts match that of Goku's full power Kamehameha. You try to imply that Ssj Kefla's energy is spirit bomb level yet at the same time say she's weaker than "a weaker goku" than from Episode 109, which honestly shows so much that you're contradicting yourself and at the same time cherrypicking statements to believe something yet leave so many holes in your argument which from the very start is wrong and out of context. Kefla as a Ssj is quite clearly above Goku and that was all fully intended. In fact, the spoilers of Episode 115 state that Kefla overpowers Goku. The burden of proof is on you so heavily now:

[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]
SayianBeyondGod wrote:With later further context Whis explains that Kefla's saiyan blood is what's driving her to continue fighting as that's what was meant when she was far from done. This also implies Kefla is already at her limit in power if she only has her will power or saiyan instincts left.
Having Saiyan blood doesn't equate to being far from done or excuse the notion at all. Kefla would've went Ssj2 or got enraged if she was inferior and couldn't do anything, otherwise her "Saiyan blood" would have made her laugh and continue fighting ultra instinct Goku without any anger swallowing her. That excuse is a bad one since it contradicts the main context and is an attempt to stay relevant despite it being wrong
SayianBeyondGod wrote:This was early when she fought him in blue. She starts using her full effort in SSJ later.
She doesn't use her full power against Ssjb Goku or SsjB Kaioken as well until the end. She could have gone into her full power as Ssj when she knocked Goku out hence the credit from Whis about her powers comes by which relates to her KICK and not the power she used to fight Goku. The trigger to ultra instinct Goku was Kefla's Ki which was outputted by her in that kick of hers which explains why only then Goku reverted back and made him break his shell which isn't something you do on a regular basis. Kefla' kick was powerful enough to make Goku go Ultra Instinct, while attacks such as the one Jiren attacked Goku with didn't reawaken ultra instinct or make him break another one of his self-limiting shells:

[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]

This actually adds on the point that each time awakening ultra instinct becomes far greater of a feat. An example is when Goku got hit but Jiren with the strongest attacks he ever felt yet Ultra Instinct wasn't awakened because non of Goku's self-limiting shells were broken. This would support our point and Logic which I argued on previously and supports me here on the fact that Goku got stronger when he broke his shell and that it takes more effort to break the second one. jiren got even more serious, by showing a hint of his power only, thus returning Goku to his base form. Jiren's "hint" of his real power is the strongest thing Goku ever felt and witnessed:

[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]

This completely supports my point and breaks whatever your mind thinks of. You claim Kefla as a Ssj is weaker than Goku despite the fact that you think Ssj Kefla is spirit bomb level unless you want to imply that your weaker goku you're dreaming of is stronger than the spirit bomb then I don't think you have grounds to stand on at all.
SayianBeyondGod wrote:This is not what Beerus meant nor what he clearly says, what he meant is that Goku had one more shot until his stamina get's affected much more. Goku when fighting Hit in the U6 arc was beginning to get fatigue and knew he would lose to hit at that point even when still in his form, the same implies to here.
Yup, exactly thanks for proving my point. Goku had one more shot until his stamina decreases but obviously your mind can't understand what the definition of stamina means so you just went upon yourself to invent a meaning for it and interpreted it all wrongly which all your argument depends on rather than multiple supports and many arguments like me. Kaioken kills the person's stamina and destroys the body if used excessively. Beerus said he had one shot due to Kaioken. Another thing to say is, Goku had that single shot but it failed and got overwhelmed power-wise overall. Stop misinterpreting things just so that you would make yourself stick to your wrong interpretation of a battle
SayianBeyondGod wrote:You didn't even need to post Kefla kicking Goku, I'm starting to realize that your entire tactic here is too post so much scans to create too much space for me to respond. But don't worry excluding your scans your arguments are hardly elaborative here.
Yes I needed because your point was so reliant on Kefla defeating Goku was an issue of its own so I had to post this scan to show you that Kefla kicked Goku while in SsjB Kaioken prior to losing all his stamina which would allow him to hold out his form. All my scans are needed but you just say they aren't simply due to this scan which you needed to grasp a situation but even then you failed so. You sound so hypocritical even though it doesn't suit You at all since you're the one here who's getting torn at this point.
People I'm always keen to Debate with for the sole purpose of increasing experience and joy:

User avatar
DB▪Magnum-Expert
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 280
Joined: Tue Jul 11, 2017 4:33 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by DB▪Magnum-Expert » Fri Mar 02, 2018 4:16 pm

Continuing here since there's no space
SayianBeyondGod wrote:None of them refers to Kefla's kick but rather her ki which makes it evident that the kick doesn't rival the spirit bomb or UI Goku in anyway.
Now that's some high level speculation you got there saying that the kick doesn't rival ultra instinct or so. What caused Goku to transform to ultra instinct was Kefla, but moment did that occur? When Kefla kicked him, causing this turn point. Whis then comments on her Ki, though that's exactly the Ki enhanced in that Kick of hers. If it was her Ki when she fought Kaioken Goku then that would make zero sense given that her Ki as stated by Whis have been credited far beyond Goku' ki. Context > headcanon, so what you're doing isn't supporting you at all
SayianBeyondGod wrote:They're both talking about her overall ki and abilities with it that began to wore and tear Goku into a low state. Even that narrator claims it was a overall battle that triggered the form not the kick.

[spoiler]Image
Image[/spoiler]
Direct feats and statements which contradict the narrator makes what the narrator say null. Mainly that Kick triggered Ultra Instinct which is relevant to when she said that she had to end the match at the end meaning she could have ended it anytime she wanted. Jiren's match with Goku from Episode 110 is rendered as an extreme battle despite the difference in strength.
SayianBeyondGod wrote:She doesn't say she purposely dragged that fight, she just wanted it to be longer but wasn't a possibility since Goku was fatigue and couldn't keep up in for longer period so she basically out tried him rather than having the power in SSJ to beat him
What? Kefla never said that she couldn't continue the fight because Goku is weaker or fatigued, never!, you just felt like adding that to the notion speculating a scenario. Kefla clearly said that she wanted to fight Goku longer, but this is a match hence she should finish it either way meaning she dragged the fight. She never said "I wanted to keep fighting you a little longer, but you're fatigued" or along the lines, but She specifically says it's a match. You sure got the burden of proof on your head so heavily:

[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]
SayianBeyondGod wrote:Just because she wanted to fight him more doesn't mean she was holding back for the purpose of dragging out the fight, you are using your headcanon to conclude that.
More like you're the one who's concluding something and dismissing a factual direct statement which debunks you horribly which shows how much of a cherrypicker and speculative you are. The statement shows Kefla stating that she ended The fight because she decided so, not because he's fatigued. Futile Trial
SayianBeyondGod wrote:It was already implied that was suing full efforts when being overpowered by SSBKK Goku due to her calling Goku a worthy opponent
Yet you tell me I speculate? Calling someone a worthy opponent doesn't mean you should use 100% against them or even close to that. You're simply pulling that out of thin air yet dismiss factual material and claim they're wrong by inventing misinterpretations
SayianBeyondGod wrote:the crowd being worried,
This is all when you're dismissing the fact that Goku got stronger and the point where your ENTIRE argument relies on your misinterpretation of the definition of the word stamina and your baseless headcanon arguments and misinterpretations.
SayianBeyondGod wrote:Whis claim her saiyan drive is the only thng that kept her fighting
He never said her Saiyan drive the only thing which drives her to fight, that's just part of it but that's more of an excuse which I already countered above and you obviously have taken this statement out of context. Kefla clearly said she's far from done while fighting Goku meaning she has more to bring out:

[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]
SayianBeyondGod wrote:Goku inflicting great pain and damage on her and being too fast for her to react.
I guess Namek Saga Frieza is stronger than Ssj Goku because he inflicted pain on him and blitzed him at some points. Your point proves nothing
SayianBeyondGod wrote:I don't know how you could conclude to that as all she said is that they can't be too cautious and somehow you interpreted this as being SSB may be too much for Jiren. You're manipulating context here. The difference is that Vados already saw Kefla in action while Marcarita hardly saw a full power Goku in action (he held back a few times prior).
No one is manipulating context here except you thinking that's what's happening although nothing of that sort is being done. Marcarita saw full power SsjB but felt worried and then when the Spirit Bomb was being made she was worried. When the spirit bomb was thrown Vermouth thought that it might be troublesome for Jiren despite knowing the fact that Jiren is far beyond anything he's ever shown before which makes it an obvious occurrence that they're h just overworrying:

[spoiler]Image
Image[/spoiler]

Vados was pretty much eager and confident on Kefla's power but magically she gets worried. It's all simply overworrying.
SayianBeyondGod wrote:Again Picoolo claimed that she surpassed Goku earlier level which was SSBKK not UI, did you neglect the translations I provided,
It makes little to no sense for it to relate to the Goku who is weaker than Kefla and the fact that you believe Kefla rivaled the spirit bomb yet you say she's weaker than Kaioken SsjB Goku? You're heavily contradicting yourself. I'll show you full evidence now that Kefla is far beyond what you think and that Ssj Kefla. This will also debunk this cringiness:

[spoiler]
SayianBeyondGod wrote:fatigue Goku at a power cap was igniting her according to Gohan so it's evident that she's not UI level. The time frame from episode 110 was 12 minutes while the time frame of episode 115 was 2 minutes, it make sense that it was SSBKK which was the latter due to how earlier it was. UI Goku attacks were overpowering Kefla, while I could argue Kefla is a known egoist after mocking Goku's attacks he later claims he's getting the hang of this in which he powers up by igniting his aura. When overpowering he she starts receiving noticeable damage while claiming "impossible" when grasping her stomach in pain and struggling to get up, so her expectations were exceeded.
ImageImage
[/spoiler]

Kefla is far beyond what you're saying and you're actually downplaying her heavily. Champa seemed awfully happy and concluded that she is a trump card that will lead Universe 6's win throughout the Tournament despite Hit losing which you dismissed. Vados got her curiosity and eagerness out of her toes and agreed with Champa that she is a trump card that will lead Universe 6's survival:

[spoiler]Image
Image
Image[/spoiler]

So not only does Vados agrees with the fact that Kefla is a trump card which will lead Universe 6 into the path of victory, she supports Champa clearly in all of his thoughts. The narrator then implies that Universe 7 is not going to have it easy and that they might lose despite the fact that you're suggesting she's inferior to Kaioken Goku and just a bit above him, and a "weaker" goku at that. This actually speaks a lot given that Kefla sure was a turn point made so that she would be treated as the strongest being from Universe 6 and this will be supported down the road.

[spoiler]Image
Image[/spoiler]

Goku goes SsjB and Champa still believes that Kefla could beat him despite that anyways, and Vados is very much smiling at the issue but she's just overreacting similar to how Marcarita did towards Goku and the Spirit Bomb. If you want to argue that Champa thought she could beat him because Goku was short of stamina, then no, because stamina has nothing to do with Goku's strength and it's supported by the fact that Goku got stronger as Ultra Instinct yet His stamina was about to be lost.

[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]

Both Goku and Kefla match each other. Actually, this doesn't prove Kefla is weak but in fact it proves that Goku is far stronger than before given that it's a fact Kefla is the strongest character in Universe 6. You've already lost your argument the moment your misinterpretation about the term Stamina has been debunked and exposed. Goku matching Kefla supports me in the fact that Goku does get stronger:

[spoiler]Image
Image[/spoiler]

Goku's Power and Kefla's were so strong they made Jiren flinch which is not something you could do easily to someone of Jiren's calibre at all. I think the intention is quite obvious, and Kefla making Jiren flinch with Goku sure is some high level feat that can't he denied:

[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]

I suppose this would be your refute right?

[spoiler]
SayianBeyondGod wrote:The kind of power to grasp Jiren attention is inconsistent. In the same time Jiren had taken note of Kale uncontrolled berserk form that was weaker than the control one later since he needed to take her out. The stronger controlled one that struggled against fatigued SSJ2 Goku also made Jiren twitch as well. Not to mention as Maji Kayo made Jiren in the need to engage in battle. SSG was enough to make Jiren block the attacks, while SSJ2 made his head move. Not to mention Vegeta was more concern on Goku being able to keep up while tired than on Kefla's power later in the fight. The fact Vegeta is making Jiren sweat more and go defensive is a lot more than making him twitch despite the fact his power is heavily above any of the said people above. So the kind of power in order to alert Jiren can be inconsistent at times with lowends. But the real reason Jiren reacted to their fight was more so because of Goku's power combine with Kefla's rather than them individually.
[/spoiler]

Don't worry I'll dissect this piece by piece.
SayianBeyondGod wrote:In the same time Jiren had taken note of Kale uncontrolled berserk form that was weaker than the control one later since he needed to take her out
At the time Kale was made to be SsjB level purposedly so it was intended for kale to be that strong and it was never contradicted until she controlled it and had trouble with SsjG Goku (she literally traded blow with him and faired much better against Goku than Caulifla by far). The spoilers of Episode 100 where kale makes her second appearance as a Berserk Super Saiyan was stated to have thrown the Tournament of Power into chaos crediting her strength far beyond concern:

[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]

In fact, Hit himself states that a monster was managed to be awaken to Caulifa given her performance showing even Hit is surprised and credits her to be a monster herself. This adds more onto the fact that Kale was intended to be "that" powerful:

[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]

An Entire board of the fighters, especially the top tiers, appear after Kale powers up catching each of their attention such as Toppo, Dyspo and Jiren. Kale has made everybody shocked and left everyone standing:

[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]

Even Vegeta warned Goku to be careful and Goku himself said that he is. More to that, Vegeta makes a reference to Kale's transformation which was soon left in the dust, however they were very much trying to thicken things up by Vegeta's statement and worry about her sinister transformation. Vegeta even looks pretty much worried as fuck about this case here:

[spoiler]Image
Image
Image[/spoiler]

And Later on Goku transforms into a Super Saiyan Blue hoping to defeat Kale after being stomped as a Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan 2 and directly states that he will use even more power in regards to the Kamehameha and putting more energy than what SsjB already gives. No statement has been ever mentioned that Goku was holding back since then and nothing implied he was holding back until, although so faint, episode 109 but most of this has started on Episode 114 which really doesn't show anything which I'll argue on down. Apparently Kale simply just moves through Goku's Kamehameha as if it is nothing (referencing Broly doing the same to Goku on movie 8, though it still doesn't mean this is dissmisable) and further continues to power up further.

[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]

Kale's power goes out of control and starts releasing her Ki everywhere and everyone couldn't do anything to her. She even knocks Goku out his SsjB form and reverts back to Base form:

[spoiler]Image
Image[/spoiler]

Everyone had the time to go and waste their time fighting kale and having fun if it would happen but no one approached her, not even Dyspo or Toppo. Toppo even states that her voice is "that strong" and the only one who stood infornt of Kale was Jiren, to let us "witness" Jiren's power and at the same time we already have seen Kale's power so Jiren's was considered "OP" by fans. This describes Toei's intention really well:

[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]

What you could argue about Goku defeating Mastered Berserk Super Saiyan Kale is that he got stronger which completely supports all of the evidences and arguments from before. It all adds up. This answers your other point because They also were referencing the same ass power up from before on Episode 100. Goku being able to fend against that only proves he got stronger. Nuff said

[spoiler]
SayianBeyondGod wrote:The stronger controlled one that struggled against fatigued SSJ2 Goku also made Jiren twitch as well
[/spoiler]
SayianBeyondGod wrote:Not to mention as Maji Kayo made Jiren in the need to engage in battle. SSG was enough to make Jiren block the attacks, while SSJ2 made his head move
Maji Kayo making Jiren engage battle proves nothing as Maji Kayo overpowered Dyspo and actually Toppo was going to stop Maji Kayo but Jiren felt like going up against him and told Toppo to move. This throws your ENTIRE point since Jiren wasn't in the need to engage battle so you just pulled that headcanon out of thin air. SsjG Goku making Jiren pull out a finger and counter all of this attacks? I don't think you understand the scenes quite well at all. Ssj2 made Jiren's head move but then he failed to do any such occurrence which means Jiren was holding back further but then strengthened up himself more which made Goku's attacks attacks as a Ssj2 no longer useful. The rest of your comment is rubbish
SayianBeyondGod wrote:But the real reason Jiren reacted to their fight was more so because of Goku's power combine with Kefla's rather than them individually
[/quote]

Oh please cut the speculation that was never ever mentioned and it never has been said that it was both but instead it was stated in general individual and combined, either way it didn't matter despite the context was talking about their powers more so about each's.

Now getting back onto the main analysis about Kefla vs Goku

According to you, Goku was getting weaker because his stamina was decreasing since SsjB is a transformation which burns up stamina. Yet you dismissed the statement which puts your argument down. It's directly stated that Goku's and Kefla's energy is increasing during their battle which goes against your point on Stamina Issues but supports the idea of Goku not being weakened and the fact that the stamina issue was more about Holding out the transformation rather than power wise:

[spoiler]Image
Image[/spoiler]

Beerus believes Goku needs to finish Kefla in the next blow but of course he wouldn't be able to if Goku is getting weaker as according to you given Kaioken reduces his stamina heavily and destroys one's own body. Goku's last blow was a Kamehameha but it completely failed. It all makes sense when Stamina is not even correlative to Strength.

[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]

As soon as Kefla beats Goku, Champa believes that Universe 6's victory is assured despite the existence of Jiren is their (The Jiren Champa knows is the one who's beyond Hit and struggled against his ability). Goku's strength has definitely increased and was considered a threat beyond anything to Champa so he had to knock him out. It's so much evident now: Goku got stronger.

[spoiler]Image
Image[/spoiler]

As soon as Goku awakens Ultra Instinct, Champa screams out telling Kefla to defeat Goku before mastering Ultra Instinct. While this might be calling it being hopeful, Champa was clearly saying that Kefla should beat Goku quickly before he masters it so his main worry was Goku mastering Ultra Instinct and not the form itself, which tells us a lot about her power which you tried to imply that she's barely above a "weaker" SsjB Kaioken Goku which directly contradicts the context and other materials:

[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]

Kefla states that the more Goku powers up the stronger she gets. Goku's Power affected Kefla's growth and powered her up far more, where her Ki was treated equally and relative to that of Goku's by the audience which makes it even more clearer that Kefla is relative to this powered up Goku. It's even believed that Goku's power could go ahead with Kefla's Ki and equally clash despite the fact that this would not have been mentioned if the difference is clear and very wide.

[spoiler]Image
Image
Image[/spoiler]

As for your interpretation of Piccolo's statement, let me counter this very well. Piccolo witnesses Kefla's and Goku's Ki and he compares both of them on equal terms. He puts Goku and Kefla in a single sentence and treats both of their powers equally. He states that Both of their Ki(s) are inciting the other to power up even more and increases their strength. Kefla's power is very powerful that it affects Goku's Ki into powering up even further and increases it. Unless a Raditz could incite Goku to power up further then this statement kind of makes what you're saying ironic since Kefla affecting Goku that much is no cakewalk and proves a lot about her power.

[spoiler]Image
Image
Image[/spoiler]

Goku also seems to be affecting Kefla which makes her draw out even more power than before. Her growth in power seems to be very high that it makes Gohan even worried or shocked at the case after the case being explained by Piccolo:

[spoiler]Image
Image
Image
Image[/spoiler]

Then Piccolo states that Kefla's Ki is even greater than Goku's Earlier level. How can it be related to SsjB Kaioken Goku when he's inferior to Ssj Kefla? Even if you want to take Whis's statement about Kefla's Ki being above the Spirit Bomb which was thrown against Goku then that would make it IMPOSSIBLE for it to refer go an inferior power. You're obviously just trying to purposedly downplay Kefla given you're blinded by your saltiness towards her. All events are "Earlier" in the Tournament of Power as the events all take place without much time interval between them similar to this case. It has been almost 10 minutes between Episode 110 Ultra Instinct Goku and Episode 116 Ultra Instinct Goku so 10 minutes isn't far off. In fact, When Piccolo says Kefla's power is above Goku' Earlier level, Gohan responds with "No way!" as if it's some danger to Ultra Instinct Goku despite the difference in power between SsjB Kaioken Goku and Ultra Instinct is astronomical. Piccolo seems to even agree with Gohan and mentions that ONLY if Kefla manages to increase Goku's Power then Goku might take the win in terms of Power so Kefla is far beyond where you're putting her:

[spoiler]Image
Image
Image
Image[/spoiler]

This is completely supported by Vados, since she actually notes the difference between Ultra Instinct Goku and Kefla, she states Goku's reaction is better than Kefla but notes nothing about Goku being above Kefla but the opposite in which she implies Kefla is beyond Goku where she said that Kefla's power and speed are impressive but only reaction has been stated by Vados to be above Kefla. When Goku attacks Kefla, she bounces back as if nothing happened and claims his attacks are fodder despite such attacks working on Jiren, pushing him and even letting us see an expression of pain on him (slight though):

[spoiler]Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image[/spoiler]

Goku gets more used to Ultra Instinct and attracts Jiren's attention absolutely. This proves Goku got stronger than before which is supported by the spoilers mentioning that Jiren got more interested in fighting a more powered up Goku despite his stamina being less than when he fought him earlier on:

[spoiler]Image
Image[/spoiler]

Yes Goku here starts to overpower Kefla but She still manages to block an attack from Goku and react to it. She even manages to quickly stand up after being hit by Goku:

[spoiler]Image
Image
Image[/spoiler]

Kefla then decides to go Full Power. Sure she does become angry and kind of Bloodlusted but she's still aware of the power she's outputting and she herself states that she'll reveal her Full Power, meaning the power which is powerful enough to threaten Goku is her full power not some extra power she got from nowhere:

[spoiler]Image
Image
Image
Image[/spoiler]

Vados then implies that Kefla is indeed literally a final weapon based on her Ki. This kind of implies that she originally believed that Kefla is a final weapon but this confimed it furhter. Vados believes Kefla is a final weapon, but after seeing Kefla's Ki like this she reconfirms it far more straightforward and better:

[spoiler]Image
Image[/spoiler]

More evidence that Kefla is a final weapon is everyone's reaction when Kefla lost. Basically, Champa implies that even Kefla lost while the context was mainly implying that Kefla is the strongest being in Universe 6 and is supported by the Kaioshin of Universe 6:

[spoiler]Image
Image[/spoiler]

Toppo and Dyspo state that Goku got even stronger which debunks your trial of saying that he didn't get any based on your horrible stamina interpretation:

[spoiler]Image
Image[/spoiler]

Whis states that Goku had to finish it in one blow due to his stamina issue so he chose a Kamehameha and used Ultra Instinct's ability to gather all His ki into a single full power Kamehameha and decided to throw it at her or otherwise he would have lost meaning he knew he couldn't beat her unless he uses a Full Power Kamehameha and that was before she revealed her true full power:

[spoiler]Image
Image
Image
Image
Image[/spoiler]

If you reconsider Ssj2 Multiplier in which it isn't much far away from Ssj then that would explain a lot. The END
Last edited by DB▪Magnum-Expert on Fri Mar 02, 2018 4:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
People I'm always keen to Debate with for the sole purpose of increasing experience and joy:

User avatar
Miracles
I Live Here
Posts: 2742
Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2008 10:31 am

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Fri Mar 02, 2018 4:18 pm

TheUltimateNinja wrote:Beerus' UI in the manga wasn't even that good, he only dodged a few attacks before he started getting tagged repeatedly. It probably stops working once he gets hit.
Well consider the fact that Beerus was dodging multiple god's at the same time. No one else replicated that feat in all of Super, via anime or manga.
"The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God."~Psalm 14:1

User avatar
Kenneth La Torre
I'm pretty cozy, here...
Posts: 1563
Joined: Tue Nov 14, 2017 9:38 pm
Location: Florida

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Kenneth La Torre » Fri Mar 02, 2018 4:24 pm

Still with the Kefla debate? The majority already have accepted the fact that as a SS2 she is already way beyond a ssb kaioken x20 goku, and possibly 110 UI goku. I know it seems stupid, but that’s because she was stupidly written that strong.

User avatar
TheMikado
I Live Here
Posts: 4866
Joined: Sun Jan 17, 2016 1:28 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by TheMikado » Fri Mar 02, 2018 4:25 pm

I can't believe this thread is still going on.

User avatar
DB▪Magnum-Expert
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 280
Joined: Tue Jul 11, 2017 4:33 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by DB▪Magnum-Expert » Fri Mar 02, 2018 4:30 pm

Kenneth La Torre wrote:Still with the Kefla debate? The majority already have accepted the fact that as a SS2 she is already way beyond a ssb kaioken x20 goku, and possibly 110 UI goku. I know it seems stupid, but that’s because she was stupidly written that strong.
Well yeah I could see how she's stupidly written but I agree with you, I'm just arguing with him because he disagrees and implies she is barely above Kaioken Goku From Episode 115 as a Ssj2
People I'm always keen to Debate with for the sole purpose of increasing experience and joy:

User avatar
PerhapsTheOtherOne
I Live Here
Posts: 2053
Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2017 5:55 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Fri Mar 02, 2018 4:33 pm

So, I was checking out episode 110 again for kicks before tomorrow night's episode, and I noticed some things I missed.

Gohan and Piccolo noted that Goku's attacks AND dodges had that same quality to them where they didn't sense him making those moves at all.

So, Goku did indeed utilize the Ultra Instinct offensively against Jiren.

Also, looking at this episode and the one where Toppo utilized Hakai Energy, I've come to the conclusion that their states as Ultra Instinct and Hakaishin are indeed forms, but they aren't forms separate from the techniques/energies they utilize. I believe that, in these instances, Goku and Toppo were basically doing the same thing: mutating in Ki composition and body in order to be able to utilize the power they display.

These forms they take on aren't separate from the powers they use, but rather their bodies' way of being able to utilize/handle them. In turn, they end up stronger than their previous stated; Toppo's natural state and SSB Goku, in this case. Basically, Goku uses an Ultra Instinct mutation that makes him stronger than his SSB form, and Toppo uses a Hakai mutation that puts him on the level of a contemporary Hakaishin.

Post Reply