Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Doctor. » Thu Jul 19, 2018 4:21 pm

Bergamo wrote:
Doctor. wrote:
Bergamo wrote: I don't see the problem. The point of the RoSaT is power boosts.

Vegeta God/Blue > Rosé Black > Super Saiyan Black = Blue Vegeta

In terms of pure 100% strength, Blue Vegeta was stronger than Rosé by a lot, but the entire point of the arc is that they can't use pure 100% strength until the very end.
The RoSaT barely made Goku and Vegeta any stronger in 3 years and you're saying Vegeta got dozens of times stronger in 6 months?

You realize, at the very least, how arbitrary his power boost is?
Vegeta didn't get dozens of times stronger. I don't know what that assertion is based off of.
Super Saiyan 3 is 8x stronger than Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan God/Rosé are both massively above 3. Vegeta went from tying to SS1 in Blue to beating Rosé in God. He got at the very least 8x stronger; realistically, at least a dozen times.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PFM18 » Thu Jul 19, 2018 4:23 pm

Doctor. wrote:
Bergamo wrote:
Doctor. wrote: You're not explaining yourself.

Vegeta's strength is either inconsistently portrayed in both fights, or he gets ridiculously stronger in a short amount of time in the RoSaT.
I don't see the problem. The point of the RoSaT is power boosts.

Vegeta God/Blue > Rosé Black > Super Saiyan Black = Blue Vegeta

In terms of pure 100% strength, Blue Vegeta was stronger than Rosé by a lot, but the entire point of the arc is that they can't use pure 100% strength until the very end.
The RoSaT barely made Goku and Vegeta any stronger in 3 years and you're saying Vegeta got dozens of times stronger in 6 months?

You realize, at the very least, how arbitrary his power boost is?
Now to be fair, the massive boost Vegeta got in the RoSAT was a plot point. I don't know about the manga, but it was stated in the anime that he got a larger boost because of his anger towards Black for killing Bulma/hurting Trunks. You can argue if it was a good explanation, but there was an explanation. Of course, the increase in the anime was substantial but certainly not 100x+ like in the manga

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Thu Jul 19, 2018 4:26 pm

Bergamo wrote:
Doctor. wrote:
Bergamo wrote:The tweet says that the line is a direct reference to Trunks from the cell saga. Trunks was too slow, thus why you can infer that Kale is too slow. Also, the tweet implies that this is a problem with her form, not that she's just bad at martial arts.
They're not the same form, they don't have the same disadvantages; a pointless callback is just a pointless callback. If Kale was slow, she wouldn't be hitting characters like Toppo, Vegeta and Freeza.
Bergamo wrote:I'm thinking about making a post to explain the powerscaling in the manga, so that people like you will stop your blind hatred.
Nobody misunderstands the manga. You're the one trying to excuse everything while ignoring the original series' logic.
Kale hit Frieza and Goku because she wasn't as bulky then. She got a lot bigger in between then and when she fought the pride troopers.

I think many people misunderstand things like SSJ Black vs SSB Vegeta. I don't think the manga is flawless, but so many people hate on it for no good reason.
ZombieVito wrote:
Bergamo wrote: Oh look, a other person who dislikes the manga because they don't fundamentally understand it.

Let me guess...
-"Super Saiyan Black is fighting SSB Vegeta! Screw context, that's duuuuummmb.:
-"Vegeta using SSG is duuummmb."
-"I wanted to wait another 3 months for the fodder characters to get eliminated. Actually, if that happened I'd call the manga boring."

I'm thinking about making a post to explain the powerscaling in the manga, so that people like you will stop your blind hatred.
Sigh.

Since they gave Black Super Saiyan then that means he has 2, 3 and God. This means that since his base is over 400 times stronger than Goku's then his Rose form is 400 times stronger than Blue.

Power scale broken. The anime did the right thing to not only skip Super Saiyan but to say Rose is his version of Super Saiyan not Blue.

You clearly have no idea what you are talking about. I'm even surprised you like that mess of a manga since Bergamo was awful on it.
Black having super saiyan does not mean he has the rest of the forms. That makes no sense.

Black says, "The soul of a God and the body of a saiyan are INCREASINGLY becoming one and the same." This means that the transformation from Super Saiyan to Super Saiyan Rose is gradual. When he fought Vegeta he was 90% transformed, and that's why he had God tier strength in a mortal form.
Yes. Because having the forms of the body you stole makes no sense.

>_>

Black is a natural god so he fits perfectly with the definition of Blue.

A Saiyan with the power of god as a Super Saiyan. There's no need for the other forms in the anime.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Bergamo » Thu Jul 19, 2018 4:28 pm

Doctor. wrote:
Bergamo wrote:
Doctor. wrote:
The RoSaT barely made Goku and Vegeta any stronger in 3 years and you're saying Vegeta got dozens of times stronger in 6 months?

You realize, at the very least, how arbitrary his power boost is?
Vegeta didn't get dozens of times stronger. I don't know what that assertion is based off of.
Super Saiyan 3 is 8x stronger than Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan God/Rosé are both massively above 3. Vegeta went from tying to SS1 in Blue to beating Rosé in God. He got at the very least 8x stronger; realistically, at least a dozen times.
You're still misunderstanding. SSJ Black didn't jump from SSJ to Rosé, in fact, his SSJ and Rosé forms are close in power. His power was gradually increasing. First he's weaker than SSJ2 Vegeta, then he's equal to a SSJB Vegeta, all in his Super Saiyan state. Finally his power stops increasing, and his hair turns pink. It's one long gradual transformation.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ekrolo2 » Thu Jul 19, 2018 4:29 pm

ZombieVito wrote:Yes. Because having the forms of the body you stole makes no sense.

>_>

Black is a natural god so he fits perfectly with the definition of Blue.

A Saiyan with the power of god as a Super Saiyan. There's no need for the other forms in the anime.
That doesn't really fit with what you said for the anime though. If Rose is just his SS1 but with different hair, then by definition he should have a pink haired SS2, SS3, God and Blue. It's a problem with Black across both his appearances, the manga just makes it even more obvious by giving him a regular SS1 first.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Doctor. » Thu Jul 19, 2018 4:31 pm

PFM18 wrote:
Doctor. wrote:
Bergamo wrote: I don't see the problem. The point of the RoSaT is power boosts.

Vegeta God/Blue > Rosé Black > Super Saiyan Black = Blue Vegeta

In terms of pure 100% strength, Blue Vegeta was stronger than Rosé by a lot, but the entire point of the arc is that they can't use pure 100% strength until the very end.
The RoSaT barely made Goku and Vegeta any stronger in 3 years and you're saying Vegeta got dozens of times stronger in 6 months?

You realize, at the very least, how arbitrary his power boost is?
Now to be fair, the massive boost Vegeta got in the RoSAT was a plot point. I don't know about the manga, but it was stated in the anime that he got a larger boost because of his anger towards Black for killing Bulma/hurting Trunks. You can argue if it was a good explanation, but there was an explanation. Of course, the increase in the anime was substantial but certainly not 100x+ like in the manga
I don't care if it's a plot point. It's stupid either way. All it means is that it's Toriyama's fault, but Toei and Toyotaro both had hands in the way they wanted to execute the idea. I think both of them did it poorly, but it's a much bigger issue in the manga.
Bergamo wrote:You're still misunderstanding. SSJ Black didn't jump from SSJ to Rosé, in fact, his SSJ and Rosé forms are close in power. His power was gradually increasing. First he's weaker than SSJ2 Vegeta, then he's equal to a SSJB Vegeta, all in his Super Saiyan state. Finally his power stops increasing, and his hair turns pink. It's one long gradual transformation.
This is your own headcanon, Rosé is just Black's equivalent to Blue, it's not "one long transformation"; he was just in the process of unlocking the form. How do you know his Super Saiyan and Rosé forms are close in power? Are you suggesting Rosé has a set powerlevel and can't get any stronger? Super Saiyan forms are multipliers. If Super Saiyan Black got stronger, then all that means is that his other forms got stronger too.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PFM18 » Thu Jul 19, 2018 4:33 pm

Doctor. wrote:I don't care if it's a plot point. It's stupid either way. All it means is that it's Toriyama's fault, but Toei and Toyotaro both had hands in the way they wanted to execute the idea. I think both of them did it poorly, but it's a much bigger issue in the manga.
I don't think so. His power increases being a function of his character and it's development is a cool concept to me.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Green » Thu Jul 19, 2018 4:33 pm

I'd also like to add that Black having SS and SSR was Toriyama's idea (stated in his character design), Toei supposedly decided to skip the first form and have base Black no sell Vegeta's attacks.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Doctor. » Thu Jul 19, 2018 4:34 pm

PFM18 wrote:
Doctor. wrote:I don't care if it's a plot point. It's stupid either way. All it means is that it's Toriyama's fault, but Toei and Toyotaro both had hands in the way they wanted to execute the idea. I think both of them did it poorly, but it's a much bigger issue in the manga.
I don't think so. His power increases being a function of his character and it's development is a cool concept to me.
I mean Vegeta's power increase being so huge after training in the RoSaT, when the RoSaT was rendered obsolete not only in the Cell arc but in Super once already.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Thu Jul 19, 2018 4:39 pm

ekrolo2 wrote:
ZombieVito wrote:Yes. Because having the forms of the body you stole makes no sense.

>_>

Black is a natural god so he fits perfectly with the definition of Blue.

A Saiyan with the power of god as a Super Saiyan. There's no need for the other forms in the anime.
That doesn't really fit with what you said for the anime though. If Rose is just his SS1 but with different hair, then by definition he should have a pink haired SS2, SS3, God and Blue. It's a problem with Black across both his appearances, the manga just makes it even more obvious by giving him a regular SS1 first.
Why doesn't Goku stack up SS2 with god ki then?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Bergamo » Thu Jul 19, 2018 4:42 pm

Doctor. wrote:
PFM18 wrote:
Doctor. wrote:
The RoSaT barely made Goku and Vegeta any stronger in 3 years and you're saying Vegeta got dozens of times stronger in 6 months?

You realize, at the very least, how arbitrary his power boost is?
Now to be fair, the massive boost Vegeta got in the RoSAT was a plot point. I don't know about the manga, but it was stated in the anime that he got a larger boost because of his anger towards Black for killing Bulma/hurting Trunks. You can argue if it was a good explanation, but there was an explanation. Of course, the increase in the anime was substantial but certainly not 100x+ like in the manga
I don't care if it's a plot point. It's stupid either way. All it means is that it's Toriyama's fault, but Toei and Toyotaro both had hands in the way they wanted to execute the idea. I think both of them did it poorly, but it's a much bigger issue in the manga.
Bergamo wrote:You're still misunderstanding. SSJ Black didn't jump from SSJ to Rosé, in fact, his SSJ and Rosé forms are close in power. His power was gradually increasing. First he's weaker than SSJ2 Vegeta, then he's equal to a SSJB Vegeta, all in his Super Saiyan state. Finally his power stops increasing, and his hair turns pink. It's one long gradual transformation.
This is your own headcanon, Rosé is just Black's equivalent to Blue, it's not "one long transformation"; he was just in the process of unlocking the form. How do you know his Super Saiyan and Rosé forms are close in power? Are you suggesting Rosé has a set powerlevel and can't get any stronger? Super Saiyan forms are multipliers. If Super Saiyan Black got stronger, then all that means is that his other forms got stronger too.
This actually isn't headcanon.

"The soul of a God and the body of a saiyan are INCREASINGLY becoming one and the same."

"Vegeta, your level is quite suitable for INCREASING my strength."

"Goku Black is aiming to CONTINUOUSLY increase his strength."

"I thought I would gain Son Goku's power immediately after I acquired his body."(Implies he gains his power over time.)

"Goku Black's Super Saiyan form is stronger than before."

"The more these damaged cells regenerate, the more they become mine to control."

Every single line implies his power increased gradually towards Rosé
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ekrolo2 » Thu Jul 19, 2018 4:45 pm

ZombieVito wrote:
ekrolo2 wrote:
ZombieVito wrote:Yes. Because having the forms of the body you stole makes no sense.

>_>

Black is a natural god so he fits perfectly with the definition of Blue.

A Saiyan with the power of god as a Super Saiyan. There's no need for the other forms in the anime.
That doesn't really fit with what you said for the anime though. If Rose is just his SS1 but with different hair, then by definition he should have a pink haired SS2, SS3, God and Blue. It's a problem with Black across both his appearances, the manga just makes it even more obvious by giving him a regular SS1 first.
Why doesn't Goku stack up SS2 with god ki then?
Because unlike Black, as per the anime explanation, his SS1 form doesn't run on God Ki. Black's in the anime does, hence why it's "just his Super Saiyan with God Ki" and not his version of Blue. Christ, just thinking about this makes me want to drop kick someone for re-introducing the old transformations.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Doctor. » Thu Jul 19, 2018 4:47 pm

Bergamo wrote:Every single line implies his power increased gradually towards Rosé
Yes, they imply that he unlocked the transformation just like any other Saiyan unlocks any other transformation with any other prerequisite. He got stronger because Saiyans get stronger in battle, that's how Saiyan bodies work. He reached a point where he was strong enough to use Rosé.

What you're saying is that Super Saiyan turned into Rosé at some point. That clearly isn't true because that's not how Super Saiyan forms work.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Bergamo » Thu Jul 19, 2018 4:49 pm

Doctor. wrote:
Bergamo wrote:Every single line implies his power increased gradually towards Rosé
Yes, they imply that he unlocked the transformation just like any other Saiyan unlocks any other transformation with any other prerequisite.

What you're saying is that Super Saiyan turned into Rosé at some point. That clearly isn't true because that's not how Super Saiyan forms work.
God ki + Super Saiyan = Blue
God ki + Super Saiyan(Goku Black) = Pink

It's safe to say that the mechanics of his form work differently, especially when everything in the story suggests it.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by BlueBasilisk » Thu Jul 19, 2018 4:51 pm

ekrolo2 wrote:
ZombieVito wrote:
ekrolo2 wrote: That doesn't really fit with what you said for the anime though. If Rose is just his SS1 but with different hair, then by definition he should have a pink haired SS2, SS3, God and Blue. It's a problem with Black across both his appearances, the manga just makes it even more obvious by giving him a regular SS1 first.
Why doesn't Goku stack up SS2 with god ki then?
Because unlike Black, as per the anime explanation, his SS1 form doesn't run on God Ki. Black's in the anime does, hence why it's "just his Super Saiyan with God Ki" and not his version of Blue. Christ, just thinking about this makes me want to drop kick someone for re-introducing the old transformations.
That...actually kind of makes sense. Base Black was said to be a bit stronger than SS3 Goku. So if Rose was the equivalent to Blue in terms of power boost, wouldn't he be like 400x stronger than Goku and Vegeta in their Blue forms? He's definitely strong, but he doesn't come off as THAT strong. Vegeta's able to train for a bit and lay an ass beating on him and Goku overpowers Fused Zamasu in a beam struggle and hurts him with Kaioken.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Thu Jul 19, 2018 4:54 pm

ekrolo2 wrote:
ZombieVito wrote:
ekrolo2 wrote: That doesn't really fit with what you said for the anime though. If Rose is just his SS1 but with different hair, then by definition he should have a pink haired SS2, SS3, God and Blue. It's a problem with Black across both his appearances, the manga just makes it even more obvious by giving him a regular SS1 first.
Why doesn't Goku stack up SS2 with god ki then?
Because unlike Black, as per the anime explanation, his SS1 form doesn't run on God Ki. Black's in the anime does, hence why it's "just his Super Saiyan with God Ki" and not his version of Blue. Christ, just thinking about this makes me want to drop kick someone for re-introducing the old transformations.
But Blue is SS + god ki. Maybe SS2 is just too much to handle, I don't know.

The way I see it is that since Black is a natural god then his base form is a Saiyan beyond God, exactly as powerful as a SSG and once he turns Super Saiyan then he turns Rose. That's why him having regular Super Saiyan is not right.

The manga just fucked up yet again.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Doctor. » Thu Jul 19, 2018 4:54 pm

Bergamo wrote:
Doctor. wrote:
Bergamo wrote:Every single line implies his power increased gradually towards Rosé
Yes, they imply that he unlocked the transformation just like any other Saiyan unlocks any other transformation with any other prerequisite.

What you're saying is that Super Saiyan turned into Rosé at some point. That clearly isn't true because that's not how Super Saiyan forms work.
God ki + Super Saiyan = Blue
God ki + Super Saiyan(Goku Black) = Pink

It's safe to say that the mechanics of his form work differently, especially when everything in the story suggests it.
You're just proving my point. Rosé is just Blue but for Black, there's no reason to think the difference between Super Saiyan and Rosé is any less than the difference between Super Saiyan and Blue. The transformations are still multipliers.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Bergamo » Thu Jul 19, 2018 4:55 pm

BlueBasilisk wrote:
ekrolo2 wrote:
ZombieVito wrote: Why doesn't Goku stack up SS2 with god ki then?
Because unlike Black, as per the anime explanation, his SS1 form doesn't run on God Ki. Black's in the anime does, hence why it's "just his Super Saiyan with God Ki" and not his version of Blue. Christ, just thinking about this makes me want to drop kick someone for re-introducing the old transformations.
That...actually kind of makes sense. Base Black was said to be a bit stronger than SS3 Goku. So if Rose was the equivalent to Blue, wouldn't he be like 400x stronger than Goku and Vegeta in their Blue forms? He's definitely strong, but he doesn't come off as THAT strong when Vegeta's able to train for a bit and lay an ass beating on him.
Oh my God. As Blacks SSJ form gets stronger, he says, "The soul of a God and the body of a saiyan are INCREASINGLY becoming one and the same."

What do you think happens when the soul of a God and the body of a super saiyan become the same? It's the literally definition of Super Saiyan Rosé. He's saying he's getting increasingly closer to Super Saiyan Rosé.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by BlueBasilisk » Thu Jul 19, 2018 4:57 pm

Bergamo wrote:
BlueBasilisk wrote:
ekrolo2 wrote: Because unlike Black, as per the anime explanation, his SS1 form doesn't run on God Ki. Black's in the anime does, hence why it's "just his Super Saiyan with God Ki" and not his version of Blue. Christ, just thinking about this makes me want to drop kick someone for re-introducing the old transformations.
That...actually kind of makes sense. Base Black was said to be a bit stronger than SS3 Goku. So if Rose was the equivalent to Blue, wouldn't he be like 400x stronger than Goku and Vegeta in their Blue forms? He's definitely strong, but he doesn't come off as THAT strong when Vegeta's able to train for a bit and lay an ass beating on him.
Oh my God. As Blacks SSJ form gets stronger, he says, "The soul of a God and the body of a saiyan are INCREASINGLY becoming one and the same."

What do you think happens when the soul of a God and the body of a super saiyan become the same? It's the literally definition of Super Saiyan Rosé. He's saying he's getting increasingly closer to Super Saiyan Rosé.
I'm talking about the anime version, not the manga one. Anime Black doesn't transform until he turns Rose. I don't know what the manga one is doing.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ekrolo2 » Thu Jul 19, 2018 4:57 pm

ZombieVito wrote:But Blue is SS + god ki. Maybe SS2 is just too much to handle, I don't know.

The way I see it is that since Black is a natural god then his base form is a Saiyan beyond God, exactly as powerful as a SSG and once he turns Super Saiyan then he turns Rose. That's why him having regular Super Saiyan is not right.

The manga just fucked up yet again.
Blue being SS + God Ki IS the problem, it doesn't make any sense for either Black or Goku since that should mean they'd have God Ki version of 2 and 3. The sole good thing the retcon thing has done is stop treating Blue like a hybrid form and making it an upgraded SSGod instead. But that's like slapping a moron across the face for not shitting himself instead of kicking them down a flight of stairs as far as congratulations go.
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