Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PFM18 » Fri Jul 20, 2018 1:09 pm

ekrolo2 wrote:
ZombieVito wrote:Sadly it appears he will be using SSG which worries me the movie will be set on the lame manga continuity. If this is the case then I hope the next animated series adapts the movie.

Yeah, LSS should be stronger, maybe even stronger than Jiren. UI is definitely in the film to battle it.
Since Toriyama wrote this its clearly his idea that Vegeta can use SSGod. I don't think its inclusion here means anything for either the manga or anime continuity since we already know Toyotaro is retelling the movie for the manga and the anime probably will too. It's why I don't think we'll see KK Blue, Evolution Blue or Omen in the film version.
I mean Vegeta pretty much must have attained SSG if he knows SSB so this shouldn't really surprise anybody. I heard from several people that Toyotaro is going to cover the Broly stuff separately from the movie. As in, I believe it is pretty much confirmed this will be a continuation of the anime version.

And if I am wrong on this, God help us all.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Fri Jul 20, 2018 1:11 pm

I see no reason why Vegeta couldn't become a Super Saiyan God in the anime.

I'd imagine the movies story will be done in a way so that it could take place after either version.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Fri Jul 20, 2018 1:21 pm

Bullza wrote:I see no reason why Vegeta couldn't become a Super Saiyan God in the anime.

I'd imagine the movies story will be done in a way so that it could take place after either version.
Which is disappointing since Toyo is doing his manga version of the story.

This movie should have been a continuation to the anime.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PFM18 » Fri Jul 20, 2018 1:21 pm

Bullza wrote:I see no reason why Vegeta couldn't become a Super Saiyan God in the anime.

I'd imagine the movies story will be done in a way so that it could take place after either version.
That's impossible. The manga has CSSB, and the anime has SSBKK/SSBE. It is going to have to pick one of the versions to follow.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Fri Jul 20, 2018 1:48 pm

ZombieVito wrote:This movie should have been a continuation to the anime.
It probably is, why would you think it isn't?
PFM18 wrote:That's impossible. The manga has CSSB, and the anime has SSBKK/SSBE. It is going to have to pick one of the versions to follow.
The movie could just have neither at all. The trailer already showed Super Saiyan Blue with an aura. Maybe it just won't have Kaioken or Evolution.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Fri Jul 20, 2018 1:50 pm

Bullza wrote:
ZombieVito wrote:This movie should have been a continuation to the anime.
It probably is, why would you think it isn't?
PFM18 wrote:That's impossible. The manga has CSSB, and the anime has SSBKK/SSBE. It is going to have to pick one of the versions to follow.
The movie could just have neither at all. The trailer already showed Super Saiyan Blue with an aura. Maybe it just won't have Kaioken or Evolution.
Because it makes absolutely no sense for Goku and Vegeta to not use their more powerful forms against Broly.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ekrolo2 » Fri Jul 20, 2018 1:59 pm

Bullza wrote:
ZombieVito wrote:This movie should have been a continuation to the anime.
It probably is, why would you think it isn't?
PFM18 wrote:That's impossible. The manga has CSSB, and the anime has SSBKK/SSBE. It is going to have to pick one of the versions to follow.
The movie could just have neither at all. The trailer already showed Super Saiyan Blue with an aura. Maybe it just won't have Kaioken or Evolution.
I'm thinking neither at all. It'll be like BoG and RoF the movies, follow whatever vague Toriyama version of events is in his head and then the anime & manga will do their own takes later on.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Fri Jul 20, 2018 3:22 pm

ZombieVito wrote:Because it makes absolutely no sense for Goku and Vegeta to not use their more powerful forms against Broly.
I'm sure people wouldn't really over think it. Maybe they could get away with it depending how it's done. Maybe Vegeta will get knocked out early on and Goku will be forced into Ultra Instinct beforehand.

Goku didn't use the Kaioken against Black either even when he was getting stomped.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Marlowe89 » Fri Jul 20, 2018 3:33 pm

ekrolo2 wrote: I'm thinking neither at all. It'll be like BoG and RoF the movies, follow whatever vague Toriyama version of events is in his head and then the anime & manga will do their own takes later on.
Seconding this. It's not a big deal, honestly; there are two different continuities, but they're telling the same general story and the movie is likely simply following those outlines. Without Toei's intervention, I can't see Toriyama including anime-exclusive forms, and Toei themselves might want the film to remain true to his vision.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Fri Jul 20, 2018 3:55 pm

Bullza wrote:
ZombieVito wrote:Because it makes absolutely no sense for Goku and Vegeta to not use their more powerful forms against Broly.
I'm sure people wouldn't really over think it. Maybe they could get away with it depending how it's done. Maybe Vegeta will get knocked out early on and Goku will be forced into Ultra Instinct beforehand.

Goku didn't use the Kaioken against Black either even when he was getting stomped.
That has an explanation. Goku just recovered of that Ki disorter by that time. He only used Kaioken when it was absolutely necesarry.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Fri Jul 20, 2018 4:58 pm

ZombieVito wrote:That has an explanation. Goku just recovered of that Ki disorter by that time. He only used Kaioken when it was absolutely necesarry.
That just seems like convenience. It was only like a day after he was having the stuffing beaten out of him by Black.

It's not going to be an important detail for the movie. They'll probably just use Super Saiyan, Super Saiyan God and Super Saiyan Blue up to the point they come out with something special for the end.

Both the anime and manga have the same plot so it'll just take place after both. They'll probably reference the Tournament of Power, Jiren and maybe Ultra Instinct and that will happen in both versions.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Fri Jul 20, 2018 7:15 pm

Bullza wrote:
ZombieVito wrote:That has an explanation. Goku just recovered of that Ki disorter by that time. He only used Kaioken when it was absolutely necesarry.
That just seems like convenience. It was only like a day after he was having the stuffing beaten out of him by Black.

It's not going to be an important detail for the movie. They'll probably just use Super Saiyan, Super Saiyan God and Super Saiyan Blue up to the point they come out with something special for the end.

Both the anime and manga have the same plot so it'll just take place after both. They'll probably reference the Tournament of Power, Jiren and maybe Ultra Instinct and that will happen in both versions.
How is it not a problem? It's like if on BoG Goku never uses SS3 against Beerus. This could be a legit plothole.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Fri Jul 20, 2018 7:34 pm

ZombieVito wrote:How is it not a problem? It's like if on BoG Goku never uses SS3 against Beerus. This could be a legit plothole.
Well Gotenks didn't turn Super Saiyan 3 for Beerus in the anime. Gohan didn't turn Super Saiyan for Beerus in the anime. Goku didn't use Super Saiyan Blue Kaioken for Black, obviously his Ki was back to normal by then too. Goku didn't use the Kaioken for Kale or Aniraza.

It's a minor thing. Goku obviously has an aura as a Super Saiyan Blue so there is no Perfected Super Saiyan Blue there.

If it's going to follow anything he'd be the anime anyway as it's what everyone is familiar with. It would never follow on from the manga.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by dragon boss z » Fri Jul 20, 2018 9:12 pm

ZombieVito wrote:
Bullza wrote:
ZombieVito wrote:This movie should have been a continuation to the anime.
It probably is, why would you think it isn't?
PFM18 wrote:That's impossible. The manga has CSSB, and the anime has SSBKK/SSBE. It is going to have to pick one of the versions to follow.
The movie could just have neither at all. The trailer already showed Super Saiyan Blue with an aura. Maybe it just won't have Kaioken or Evolution.
Because it makes absolutely no sense for Goku and Vegeta to not use their more powerful forms against Broly.
Well Goku never used kaioken on Black. He only used it for a second against fused Zamasu.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Fri Jul 20, 2018 9:29 pm

Doctor. wrote:
Bergamo wrote:
Doctor. wrote: You're not explaining yourself.

Vegeta's strength is either inconsistently portrayed in both fights, or he gets ridiculously stronger in a short amount of time in the RoSaT.
I don't see the problem. The point of the RoSaT is power boosts.

Vegeta God/Blue > Rosé Black > Super Saiyan Black = Blue Vegeta

In terms of pure 100% strength, Blue Vegeta was stronger than Rosé by a lot, but the entire point of the arc is that they can't use pure 100% strength until the very end.
The RoSaT barely made Goku and Vegeta any stronger in 3 years and you're saying Vegeta got dozens of times stronger in 6 months?

You realize, at the very least, how arbitrary his power boost is?
The RoSaT itself is already very convenient.

In Saga Cell, Vegeta trained 1 year in the salon and proved to be much stronger than Cell second form. But on training the second time, the increase in strength was almost irrelevant.

In DBS, Goku and Vegeta trained 3 years and did not demonstrate any great increase of power, but when Vegeta trained 6 months in FT saga, it obtained a much greater power up. It never made much sense in any way
Bullza wrote:
ZombieVito wrote:He needs to use Kaioken. Something must make Brolly use Super Saiyan.

Blue Kaioken is very popular to not use.
Yeah something will have to push him to go further. I didn't know about this but Super Saiyan God Vegeta is in this?

[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]

There's also two different versions of Super Saiyan for Broly.

[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]

I'm guessing what we saw in the trailer was the former because he has the armour so would Super Saiyan Broly be around 50 times as strong as Super Saiyan Blue Goku and then Legendary Super Saiyan Broly stronger than that?

Doesn't look like he'll be getting a new form but that's ok.
Honestly, I do not think Toriyama still remembers any of those SSJ multipliers (which were never used in the original manga, only shown in guides supervised by him).

But it does not surprise me that Broly is able to fight Goku SSB without even being in his final form. He has always been a very exaggerated character (this is a bad thing). And now they just want to put it in canonical history with all that overpowering strength, basically repeating what they did in movie 8.

But the film seems much more a continuation of anime than manga. For those who just follow the anime, it would be strange that Goku and Vegeta were being defeated without even using their latest forms shown in ToP, Kaioken and Blue Evolution

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Fri Jul 20, 2018 9:58 pm

Bullza wrote: Well Gotenks didn't turn Super Saiyan 3 for Beerus in the anime. Gohan didn't turn Super Saiyan for Beerus in the anime. Goku didn't use Super Saiyan Blue Kaioken for Black, obviously his Ki was back to normal by then too. Goku didn't use the Kaioken for Kale or Aniraza.

It's a minor thing. Goku obviously has an aura as a Super Saiyan Blue so there is no Perfected Super Saiyan Blue there.

If it's going to follow anything he'd be the anime anyway as it's what everyone is familiar with. It would never follow on from the manga.
Gotenks underestimated Beerus (And you know it's Gotenks) and Gohan use Ultimate, why would he need Super Saiyan?

Goku was told by Kaio to not use Kaioken for a while so that does have an excuse.

He also didn't need to use Kaioken with Kale. I don't remember the fight with Aniraza so I'll watch it first.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Simere » Fri Jul 20, 2018 10:03 pm

I agree with ZombieVito. Except about the ki disorder thing, that was irrelevant. More importantly, Goku at the end of the U6 arc said he wasn't going to use SSBKK until he had improved his mastery further. That he wasn't using it when Black rolled around told us he still needed more time; we didn't question why he wasn't using it because we already knew. More time passed, the ToP came, and then we saw he was able to freely use it. That told us he had mastered it.

All Goku not using SSBKK against Kale told us was the fight wasn't serious enough for him to use it. She wasn't enough of a threat to him. If he doesn't use it against Broly in the movie then that will likewise mean Broly's not enough of a threat to him(at that moment).

Provided they don't explain it.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Fri Jul 20, 2018 10:13 pm

Kaio's warning was very clear. Keep using Kaioken recklessly and you'll risk screwing up your ki so much that you won't be able to use it anymore. Goku agreed and we only see him use it when he was absolutely going to get killed. Hell, even one preview for the episode said that Goku was going to use a life risking attack. Fused Zamasu was so much stronger than him so he had no choice.

Now that I think about it, the reason he didn't use it against Anilaza is maybe because he was saving his stamina for Jiren. He wasn't at full power at that time.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PFM18 » Fri Jul 20, 2018 10:20 pm

ZombieVito wrote:Kaio's warning was very clear. Keep using Kaioken recklessly and you'll risk screwing up your ki so much that you won't be able to use it anymore. Goku agreed and we only see him use it when he was absolutely going to get killed. Hell, even one preview for the episode said that Goku was going to use a life risking attack. Fused Zamasu was so much stronger than him so he had no choice.

Now that I think about it, the reason he didn't use it against Anilaza is maybe because he was saving his stamina for Jiren. He wasn't at full power at that time.
He obviously learned at some point how to control KKx20 as a SSB. He uses it for giant chunks of his fight against Jiren with no negative repercussions. But yeah the fight vs the U3 guys was all about saving stamina. Gohan was mindful of that.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Simere » Fri Jul 20, 2018 10:24 pm

ZombieVito wrote:Kaio's warning was very clear. Keep using Kaioken recklessly and you'll risk screwing up your ki so much that you won't be able to use it anymore. Goku agreed and we only see him use it when he was absolutely going to get killed. Hell, even one preview for the episode said that Goku was going to use a life risking attack. Fused Zamasu was so much stronger than him so he had no choice.
It wasn't that clear. I used to argue this all the time back before the ToP when the prevailing opinion was that he'd never master it and we'd never see it again. What he was saying was that Goku in general was pushing himself too much too often, it wasn't about the Kaio-ken specifically. Here's a post I made before the Black arc started:
He wasn't that explicit anyway. In fact:

The Kaio-ken was one thing, but I understand you also tried to predict things several seconds ahead of time throughout the recent tournament.

This phrasing indicates predicting the Time-Skip was worse than the Kaio-ken, but no one rules that out from happening.

I think between SSBKK and "Late-Onset Disordered Ki Syndrome", we're more likely to not hear from the latter again.

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