Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

Moderators: Kanzenshuu Staff, General Help

buutenks
I'm pretty cozy, here...
Posts: 1884
Joined: Mon Mar 30, 2015 10:42 am

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by buutenks » Thu Dec 13, 2018 1:33 pm

shadd21 wrote:Now that the movie is out, can anyone confirm whether or not MUI Goku was said to be below Beerus?
Movie isnt out yet. It comes out tomorrow.

RecolorSaiyan
Regular
Posts: 606
Joined: Mon Aug 27, 2018 4:40 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by RecolorSaiyan » Thu Dec 13, 2018 1:38 pm

shadd21 wrote:Now that the movie is out, can anyone confirm whether or not MUI Goku was said to be below Beerus?

From all the summaries I've read. No Comparison between UI Goku and Beerus is made in the movie.

In the movie and the novelization (someone posted this on twitter), Goku says Broly might be stronger than Beerus and thats all the comps we get

However maybe tonights dub premier reveals something new

ankokudaishogun
Regular
Posts: 704
Joined: Thu Aug 24, 2017 8:07 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ankokudaishogun » Thu Dec 13, 2018 2:18 pm

shadd21 wrote:Now that the movie is out, can anyone confirm whether or not MUI Goku was said to be below Beerus?
Nowhere such thing is even said or hinted.

There are suggestions UI is stronger than Beerus, thoug(if anything at least because Beerus himself hasn't mastered UI)

User avatar
Kenneth La Torre
I'm pretty cozy, here...
Posts: 1579
Joined: Tue Nov 14, 2017 9:38 pm
Location: Florida

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Kenneth La Torre » Thu Dec 13, 2018 2:43 pm

ankokudaishogun wrote:
shadd21 wrote:Now that the movie is out, can anyone confirm whether or not MUI Goku was said to be below Beerus?
Nowhere such thing is even said or hinted.

There are suggestions UI is stronger than Beerus, thoug(if anything at least because Beerus himself hasn't mastered UI)
And jiren has no aspect of UI, yet he matched it.

I think that UI as a reason to why goku is above beerus is a horrible reason.

User avatar
Miracles
I Live Here
Posts: 2983
Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2008 10:31 am

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Thu Dec 13, 2018 5:01 pm

Jmass97 wrote:
Miracles wrote:
ZombieVito wrote: We have Daizenshuu guides and the manga stating they can't get zenkai's anymore.

There's also not a single statement that said they grew stronger in their base forms. Only in UI and SSBE.
This is true for the manga. However I don't remember the anime stating such? Black was getting Zenkai's solely due to a Saiyan body.
Even Black stated Goku will be back stronger after their second bout when having tea with Zamas.
The Saiyans overall ability to grow after battle was a major plot point in the Zamas arc.

Then we get the TOP where Goku uses Blue on Kale then later a fatigued red Goku is able to box with a stronger Kale.
This is why fans feel they have to try and make sense of this farce with headcannons like "Goku was holding back" or "his overall power grew during the TOP."
Exactly! I’m going by what is shown and stated in the show. I don’t recall any guides ever stating that they no longer get zenkais and the manga even says that Goku and Vegeta grew stronger after the battle with Broly so there’s also that.
After the fight with Broly could mean Goku and Vegeta did training to improve after that clash with the Saiyan titan.
However, it is stated in chapter 20 that Goku and Vegeta pushed their bodies to the limit and "probably" can't power up from Zenkai anymore.
So it isn't a statement of fact. It's up in the air if they can or can't get Zenkai's.
"The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God."~Psalm 14:1

RecolorSaiyan
Regular
Posts: 606
Joined: Mon Aug 27, 2018 4:40 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by RecolorSaiyan » Thu Dec 13, 2018 5:26 pm

"Zenkais" =/= Saiyans improving during battle.

BoG and onwards, apparently saiyans rapidly get stronger and stronger while fighting opponents above them, just by the process of fighting. This is what Toriyama tells us.

Zenkais don't really move the needle for them anymore, its not that they don't get them but lets say hypothetically, broly punches a hole in goku 5 seconds into the fight and then goku rests up in a healing pod, his power won't have moved by any noticeable amount. Not to mention go back to android/cell/boo story arcs and vegeta didn't get significantly stronger by healing from the asskickings 18 or cell gave him. Gohan got healed by Dende vs Bootenks and it was explictly stated, his power didn't increase at all

User avatar
shadd21
Beyond-the-Beyond Newbie
Posts: 336
Joined: Wed Jul 09, 2014 10:52 am

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by shadd21 » Fri Dec 14, 2018 1:16 am

ankokudaishogun wrote:Nowhere such thing is even said or hinted.
I think we may have celebrated too soon Miracles.

User avatar
Miracles
I Live Here
Posts: 2983
Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2008 10:31 am

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Fri Dec 14, 2018 5:54 am

shadd21 wrote:
ankokudaishogun wrote:Nowhere such thing is even said or hinted.
I think we may have celebrated too soon Miracles.
I am not pulling for Beerus but the truth is it's just that he is shielded by the story. Trust the narrative, if Beerus is your fav, no one will be stronger than him until Goku surpasses him.
RecolorSaiyan wrote:"Zenkais" =/= Saiyans improving during battle.

BoG and onwards, apparently saiyans rapidly get stronger and stronger while fighting opponents above them, just by the process of fighting. This is what Toriyama tells us.

Zenkais don't really move the needle for them anymore, its not that they don't get them but lets say hypothetically, broly punches a hole in goku 5 seconds into the fight and then goku rests up in a healing pod, his power won't have moved by any noticeable amount. Not to mention go back to android/cell/boo story arcs and vegeta didn't get significantly stronger by healing from the asskickings 18 or cell gave him. Gohan got healed by Dende vs Bootenks and it was explictly stated, his power didn't increase at all
Yeah, Zenkai's mean recovery from near death and also could mean growing during battle. Toriyama did say that Saiyans improve and can change the tide during combat but he didn't say how. Goku exceeded his limits in BOG against Beerus after the god poked a hole in him and he recovered stronger. That wound from Beerus "caused" the full potential of SSJJG to come out. Then from there on Goku surpassed the limit of god a few more times until he reached his full power. Then we had Black stating in the anime that the damage he takes makes him stronger. Which is hinting towards Zenkai's. Then we have Goku and Vegeta in the anime's TOP getting new forms from near death experiences with UI from the Genki dama struggle and Beyond Blue after the Jiren whooping Vegeta took. Which again hints towards Zenkai's. It could be very well Saiyans growing could depend on both from Zenkai's and exceeding their limits when pushed into a corner.
"The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God."~Psalm 14:1

User avatar
shadd21
Beyond-the-Beyond Newbie
Posts: 336
Joined: Wed Jul 09, 2014 10:52 am

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by shadd21 » Fri Dec 14, 2018 10:34 pm

Miracles wrote: I am not pulling for Beerus but the truth is it's just that he is shielded by the story. Trust the narrative, if Beerus is your fav, no one will be stronger than him until Goku surpasses him.
It’s not so much him being protected by plot but more the writers dancing around the subject by avoiding direct comparisons between Beerus and “X” character.

User avatar
Miracles
I Live Here
Posts: 2983
Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2008 10:31 am

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Sat Dec 15, 2018 5:58 pm

shadd21 wrote:
Miracles wrote: I am not pulling for Beerus but the truth is it's just that he is shielded by the story. Trust the narrative, if Beerus is your fav, no one will be stronger than him until Goku surpasses him.
It’s not so much him being protected by plot but more the writers dancing around the subject by avoiding direct comparisons between Beerus and “X” character.
Yes, they avoid it cause there is no reason to directly compare Goku's current opponents to his goalpost Beerus. Why do you think they couldn't even say Broly; who forced a fusion to use full power, is stronger than Beerus? They will keep Beerus out of Goku's hill climb to the top and leave him as the final boss alone waiting at the pinnacle until they battle or it's outright stated that Goku or anybody else is stronger than him. Beerus is protected by the plot due to his role to the main character. Here we are, in a new arc of Super, with a new villain, Broly is already yesterdays news. Still Beerus throne is untouched. Beerus fans have nothing to fear, just enjoy the show.
"The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God."~Psalm 14:1

User avatar
shadd21
Beyond-the-Beyond Newbie
Posts: 336
Joined: Wed Jul 09, 2014 10:52 am

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by shadd21 » Sat Dec 15, 2018 8:30 pm

Honestly this whole thing about Beerus being the “end game” died after the U6 arc, nether Beerus or Goku hasn’t shown interest in fighting each other again, the writers stopped building up to it since then. Between the buildup of Jiren being as strong as the GoDs, and Goku’s statement in Broly about the ToP “opening his eye to strong fighters from other universes” it feels like ToP arc was soft way of saying the GoDs are no longer Goku end goal.

User avatar
Miracles
I Live Here
Posts: 2983
Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2008 10:31 am

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Sat Dec 15, 2018 11:28 pm

shadd21 wrote:Honestly this whole thing about Beerus being the “end game” died after the U6 arc, nether Beerus or Goku hasn’t shown interest in fighting each other again, the writers stopped building up to it since then. Between the buildup of Jiren being as strong as the GoDs, and Goku’s statement in Broly about the ToP “opening his eye to strong fighters from other universes” it feels like ToP arc was soft way of saying the GoDs are no longer Goku end goal.
If what you were saying is true we currently wouldn't have Goku, who can't even tell if a guy who just pushed Blue Gogeta to full power; is stronger, weaker or equal to Beerus.

This still shows Toriyama is letting the audience know that Beerus is and will be that guy. I know fans don't like it cause they don't like the way Beerus punks Goku and Vegeta and slaps women but those are story facts.
"The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God."~Psalm 14:1

User avatar
ssj3kakarot
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 184
Joined: Mon Dec 07, 2015 12:47 am

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ssj3kakarot » Sun Dec 16, 2018 1:37 am

Miracles wrote:
shadd21 wrote:Honestly this whole thing about Beerus being the “end game” died after the U6 arc, nether Beerus or Goku hasn’t shown interest in fighting each other again, the writers stopped building up to it since then. Between the buildup of Jiren being as strong as the GoDs, and Goku’s statement in Broly about the ToP “opening his eye to strong fighters from other universes” it feels like ToP arc was soft way of saying the GoDs are no longer Goku end goal.
If what you were saying is true we currently wouldn't have Goku, who can't even tell if a guy who just pushed Blue Gogeta to full power; is stronger, weaker or equal to Beerus.

This still shows Toriyama is letting the audience know that Beerus is and will be that guy. I know fans don't like it cause they don't like the way Beerus punks Goku and Vegeta and slaps women but those are story facts.
But some fans really enjoy it!! :D
" I swear on that faith I can never back down now" - Goku

User avatar
shadd21
Beyond-the-Beyond Newbie
Posts: 336
Joined: Wed Jul 09, 2014 10:52 am

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by shadd21 » Sun Dec 16, 2018 1:28 pm

I just wish Beerus wasn’t such an unlikeable dick in Super?

BWri
OMG CRAZY REG
Posts: 764
Joined: Mon May 02, 2016 1:56 pm
Contact:

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by BWri » Sun Dec 16, 2018 3:00 pm

Kenneth La Torre wrote:
ankokudaishogun wrote:
shadd21 wrote:Now that the movie is out, can anyone confirm whether or not MUI Goku was said to be below Beerus?
Nowhere such thing is even said or hinted.

There are suggestions UI is stronger than Beerus, thoug(if anything at least because Beerus himself hasn't mastered UI)
And jiren has no aspect of UI, yet he matched it.

I think that UI as a reason to why goku is above beerus is a horrible reason.
This is one of the reasons I feel UI has been wasted as a concept. Its honestly barely more than a powerup. It would be a great tool for weaker fighters to stall those far more powerful.
Big fan of the characters of Dragon Ball, all of them, especially formerly prominent sub-characters. -__-

User avatar
Kenneth La Torre
I'm pretty cozy, here...
Posts: 1579
Joined: Tue Nov 14, 2017 9:38 pm
Location: Florida

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Kenneth La Torre » Sun Dec 16, 2018 3:25 pm

Dimension feat they talked about looks insane.

As a side note. They were doing it BEFORE they powered up to SSB and LSS. So there's that.

User avatar
PFM18
Banned Alternate Account
Posts: 3701
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2018 2:23 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PFM18 » Sun Dec 16, 2018 5:13 pm

shadd21 wrote:I just wish Beerus wasn’t such an unlikeable dick in Super?
Uhhh how exactly?

Freezerbaby
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 135
Joined: Sun Oct 09, 2016 10:41 am

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Freezerbaby » Sun Dec 16, 2018 6:06 pm

Very disappointed to see that there isn´t golden freeza vs Broly at all, just a shot hinting that freeza lost.

zarmack
Banned Alternate Account
Posts: 852
Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2018 12:22 am

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by zarmack » Sun Dec 16, 2018 6:25 pm

shadd21 wrote:I just wish Beerus wasn’t such an unlikeable dick in Super?
To be honest, I hope Beerus becomes an enemy again in some way. Like, the Z-crew finding out that Beerus told Freeza to destroy Planet Vegeta, and then Vegeta trains his ass off so he could kill him.

User avatar
Kenneth La Torre
I'm pretty cozy, here...
Posts: 1579
Joined: Tue Nov 14, 2017 9:38 pm
Location: Florida

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Kenneth La Torre » Sun Dec 16, 2018 6:30 pm

Freezerbaby wrote:Very disappointed to see that there isn´t golden freeza vs Broly at all, just a shot hinting that freeza lost.
No. There definitely is golden Freeza vs broly. You see him get stomped by broly in his Golden form, not just the shot with him on the Mountain.

Post Reply