Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PFM18 » Sat May 11, 2019 2:01 am

Bullza wrote:
Thu May 09, 2019 11:11 pm

With the exception of Jiren and Ultra Instinct Goku which I'd put above Broly and Gogeta
No, we have six sources that state/imply in some capacity that Broly>Jiren. Seven if you include those Wafer Z cards or whatever they are called.
Dyspo should be up there, above Frieza with his Maximum Speed Mode.
Well he's still ultimately weaker than Golden Freeza, SSB Goku and Hit. He's faster than them, but still weaker than them.
Oh and Super Saiyan Rose Goku Black I'd at say was above Hit, power level wise.
Eh I hesitate with that since Hit did so well against Jiren who makes Black look like a joke.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Sat May 11, 2019 2:06 am

PFM18 wrote:
Sat May 11, 2019 2:01 am
Eh I hesitate with that since Hit did so well against Jiren who makes Black look like a joke.
Hit couldn't see even Dyspo move and was getting knocked down from his punches whereas Golden Frieza was actually even faster than Dyspo was and just tanked his punches.

So there's be a sizable difference in power level between Hit and Golden Frieza. I'd think Super Saiyan Rose Black wouldn't be all that far off from Frieza. Definitely not further away than Hit.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PFM18 » Sat May 11, 2019 2:20 am

wolflonnie wrote:
Fri May 10, 2019 2:04 pm
I guess why not.
I like this one a lot actually

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by wolflonnie » Sat May 11, 2019 3:07 am

PFM18 wrote:
Sat May 11, 2019 2:20 am
wolflonnie wrote:
Fri May 10, 2019 2:04 pm
I guess why not.
I like this one a lot actually
Thanks! I usually don't pick all statements at face-value (ex.: initial Jiren being stated to be the strongest enemy they ever faced and scaled by that point onwards). My list is based on logic, what is shown and what is told. It's too much to believe Zamasu Vegetto was that weak
and that easily surpassed, or that Goku and Vegeta became that much stronger. I don't think for an instance that is Toriyama's intention.

Ah while I'm at it. Although Goku isn't shown as KKx20 SSB and Vegeta isn't shown as SSBE in the Broly movie, I believe they're intended to be at max strenght. For the sake of scaling and headcanoning, let's call the SSB Broly movie form "SSB max power" (again, this is mere headcanon of course). So this "SSB max power" is as strong as Goku and Vegeta were at their peak (bar UI) during both manga and anime ToP.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Grand Marshal 1 » Sat May 11, 2019 5:29 am

wolflonnie wrote:
Sat May 11, 2019 3:07 am
PFM18 wrote:
Sat May 11, 2019 2:20 am
wolflonnie wrote:
Fri May 10, 2019 2:04 pm
I guess why not.
I like this one a lot actually
Thanks! I usually don't pick all statements at face-value (ex.: initial Jiren being stated to be the strongest enemy they ever faced and scaled by that point onwards). My list is based on logic, what is shown and what is told. It's too much to believe Zamasu Vegetto was that weak
and that easily surpassed, or that Goku and Vegeta became that much stronger. I don't think for an instance that is Toriyama's intention.

Ah while I'm at it. Although Goku isn't shown as KKx20 SSB and Vegeta isn't shown as SSBE in the Broly movie, I believe they're intended to be at max strenght. For the sake of scaling and headcanoning, let's call the SSB Broly movie form "SSB max power" (again, this is mere headcanon of course). So this "SSB max power" is as strong as Goku and Vegeta were at their peak (bar UI) during both manga and anime ToP.
I actuallu call it Super Saiyan Blue Full Potential, as it has been referenced in the manga, as a regular SSJB who uses his full power at all time, without the Perfected variants used. Come to think that the movie is (I guess) "Canon" to both timelines, I can see that working.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Nokra » Sat May 11, 2019 8:47 am

ZombieVito wrote:
Sat May 11, 2019 12:47 am
Soldierofficial wrote:
Fri May 10, 2019 6:48 pm
Current Goku? Yeah, I have no reason to think that Vegeta is still much stronger than Goku (w/o UI), both have the same strength in base form, and we know that SSBE = SSBKK.
But SSBE is far weaker than Kefla or GoD Toppo.
Nokra wrote:
Fri May 10, 2019 10:01 pm
Even if he "rivaled" his blue form (he didn't)
Narrator confirmed it. You have no argument here.
Nokra wrote:
Fri May 10, 2019 10:01 pm
he still would lose to 17 who has a powerful barrier, infinite energy and is extremely tactical/strategic.
This is nothing but headcanon.
Nokra wrote:
Fri May 10, 2019 10:01 pm
17 was the first person to do actual damage to Jiren also which is a feat I highly doubt Gohan could pull off.
He damaged Jiren by hitting him on the back and off guard. Not really impressive at all.
Nokra wrote:
Fri May 10, 2019 10:01 pm
Goku literally stated in ep. 86 that he "didn't intend to use blue" which implies he was forced to because of 17s power.
How is this proof that 17 > Gohan? Good job ignoring 17 saying Freeza was a monster. That's as clear cut power statement as it can get.
Nokra wrote:
Fri May 10, 2019 10:01 pm
The fact is that 17 would beat Lamehans ass 9 times out of 10 due to all of his hax. Suck it up fanboy :thumbup:
You sound like a 12 year old.

:?
17 damaging Jiren is a better feat than anything Gohan did so my point stands. He is also put Jiren on his knees so that is an even better feat. By comparison Gohan got beat on by a weak yardrat who Freeza made his bitch in just base form :lol: 17 calling Freeza a "monster" simply means he is impressed with his power. How does that mean gohan is stronger than him? You also ignored the fact that 17 is a better fighter with infinite energy. You seem to not realize that having hax like that gives you a huge edge over someone who doesn't. Did you even watch 17 vs Toppo? Toppo was stronger but wasn't able to finish 17 off because of his "inexhaustible energy". Gohan is weaker or at best "rivals" 17 so he would stand no chance. All Gohan has is energy blasts (something that 17 has along with a broken barrier ability and strategic calm mind) and asspulls. Maybe he can win with his asspulls :lol: So let me reiterate, 17 would beat Lamehans ass 9 out of 10 times and that is a fact. Its obvious that you're just a salty gohan fanboy who is upset 17 got way more shine than he did and became the mvp unlike gohan. Sorry but gohan blanco was never going to happen. get over it. :thumbdown:
Last edited by Nokra on Sat May 11, 2019 9:04 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Sat May 11, 2019 8:56 am

My take has always been and still is that 17 and Gohan are at the same level of strength, above SSG but below SSB, but 17 has several other advantages as mentioned that solidly put him above Goku's son.

So, the 2 of them fighting would be like when Piccolo and 17 fought years ago. Relatively equal in power and ability, but Gohan would ultimately lose because he lacks the other inherent qualities that a Modified Human possesses.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Sat May 11, 2019 11:41 am

I don’t know about that. Gohan has confidence that he can take Freeza, even brushing off any trace of damage that Freeza could inflict in him whenever he was asked (I doubt he could win but there is that), while 17 was showed to be baffled by his strength against Jiren. 17 only seems to have a better instinct for survival than everyone else, which deserves the most respect. But I don’t see how he can rank above Gohan as a fighter. He pretty much planned to throw himself out of the ring along with Top. If anything, he is the most adaptative in the battlefield.

So, I guess it would be something like this: Top (justice warrior) > Freeza > Gohan > 17.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Sat May 11, 2019 12:16 pm

So if SSBE Vegeta's boost wasn't a temporary one then that would mean Vegetto is an ant to Gogeta since Vegeta would have to get hundreds/thousands of times stronger than his FT arc to beat GoD Toppo.

I don't buy this at all.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ruler9871 » Sat May 11, 2019 12:32 pm

ZombieVito wrote:
Sat May 11, 2019 12:16 pm
So if SSBE Vegeta's boost wasn't a temporary one then that would mean Vegetto is an ant to Gogeta since Vegeta would have to get hundreds/thousands of times stronger than his FT arc to beat GoD Toppo.

I don't buy this at all.
Black arc Vegito is an ant compared to Current Gogeta. Goku and Vegeta themselves by the end of the ToP are massively stronger than their Black arc counterparts, so there's no way Black arc Vegito & Current Gogeta are anywhere close in power.

And fatigued SSBE Vegeta from ep.127 was portrayed as being much stronger than full-stamina SSBE Vegeta from ep.123. So it was definitely a permanent boost.
zarmack wrote:The whole "Dragonball is only supposed to be light and funny" mentality that exist in a lot of the fandom is in many ways even dumber than the "edgeload" side of the fandom. You know, the contrarians who think DB should be a Slice-of-Life series, the folks who worship Pre-Raditz Dragonball uncritically, the folks who downplay and often flat-out deny that Dragonball is an action series, the folks who try to push that false argument that none of the serious moments in the series were mean't to be taken seriously, etc.

Dragonball doesn't have a single tone. It has both silly and serious moments, both humor and drama, just like real life. The idea that a work of fiction should be only all-comedy or all-serious is unnatural and frankly, retarded.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Sat May 11, 2019 2:07 pm

I was rewatching the Broly movie and I was wondering: If the super saiyan form of their fusion is above their SSB forms, would that mean that a hypothetical SSB from the Buu arc would be below Super Vegito, just like stronger versions of Goku and Vegeta were weaker than Super Gogeta in the movie? and if SS3 Goku from the Janemba movie would go SSB, he would too be weaker than Super Gogeta? even SSB Goku and SSB Vegeta wouldn't inflict as much damage to Buu-han as Super Vegito?

Fusions in Z were the strongest you could get, nobody on their own could reach that level, and I know we were told at the beginning of Super that the god forms could now do just that and surpass that benchmark and logically SS Blue would kill Vegito but then we even have base Gogeta doing better than SS Blue Goku.

In the FT arc, Goku managed to hurt Zamasu as a SSB, so Super Vegito would've been enough to control the fight by DBS Broly movie standards, right? even if not, Vegito Blue should right out toy with his enemy. But that was not the case.

So am I correct to say that Z Super Vegito would defeat Z SSBlue Goku? or am I missing something? The only change I see is that the saiyans got way stronger and have god ki and so should their fusion, but just as their strongest iterations fused had the edge over them, a "weaker" iteration should mantain the same pattern, right?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Sat May 11, 2019 2:14 pm

Koitsukai wrote:
Sat May 11, 2019 2:07 pm
I was rewatching the Broly movie and I was wondering: If the super saiyan form of their fusion is above their SSB forms, would that mean that a hypothetical SSB from the Buu arc would be below Super Vegito, just like stronger versions of Goku and Vegeta were weaker than Super Gogeta in the movie? and if SS3 Goku from the Janemba movie would go SSB, he would too be weaker than Super Gogeta? even SSB Goku and SSB Vegeta wouldn't inflict as much damage to Buu-han as Super Vegito?

Fusions in Z were the strongest you could get, nobody on their own could reach that level, and I know we were told at the beginning of Super that the god forms could now do just that and surpass that benchmark and logically SS Blue would kill Vegito but then we even have base Gogeta doing better than SS Blue Goku.

In the FT arc, Goku managed to hurt Zamasu as a SSB, so Super Vegito would've been enough to control the fight by DBS Broly movie standards, right? even if not, Vegito Blue should right out toy with his enemy. But that was not the case.

So am I correct to say that Z Super Vegito would defeat Z SSBlue Goku? or am I missing something? The only change I see is that the saiyans got way stronger and have god ki and so should their fusion, but just as their strongest iterations fused had the edge over them, a "weaker" iteration should mantain the same pattern, right?
When god ki was introduced in BoG, it was stronger than fusions. When the fusions obtained god ki, they regained their throne.

god ki fusions > Blue > SS fusions Z/BoG.
Last edited by Miracles on Sat May 11, 2019 2:17 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Grand Marshal 1 » Sat May 11, 2019 2:14 pm

Koitsukai wrote:
Sat May 11, 2019 2:07 pm
I was rewatching the Broly movie and I was wondering: If the super saiyan form of their fusion is above their SSB forms, would that mean that a hypothetical SSB from the Buu arc would be below Super Vegito, just like stronger versions of Goku and Vegeta were weaker than Super Gogeta in the movie? and if SS3 Goku from the Janemba movie would go SSB, he would too be weaker than Super Gogeta? even SSB Goku and SSB Vegeta wouldn't inflict as much damage to Buu-han as Super Vegito?

Fusions in Z were the strongest you could get, nobody on their own could reach that level, and I know we were told at the beginning of Super that the god forms could now do just that and surpass that benchmark and logically SS Blue would kill Vegito but then we even have base Gogeta doing better than SS Blue Goku.

In the FT arc, Goku managed to hurt Zamasu as a SSB, so Super Vegito would've been enough to control the fight by DBS Broly movie standards, right? even if not, Vegito Blue should right out toy with his enemy. But that was not the case.

So am I correct to say that Z Super Vegito would defeat Z SSBlue Goku? or am I missing something? The only change I see is that the saiyans got way stronger and have god ki and so should their fusion, but just as their strongest iterations fused had the edge over them, a "weaker" iteration should mantain the same pattern, right?
Although I agree with this concept (of Fusion being stronger than the max power of what a fusee can do) we have to take in account a very important thing. In Z, in the Buu Sag, Goku had reached the peak of his power with Super Saiyan 3. That said, by using the very same logic, then Z Vegito should be above that.

Now, if Goku and Vegeta were to go Blue in that saga, then they would never need fusion. Why? Because, Buuhan and other enemies never showed the potential of being much supriro than SSJ3 threats. In Super, Vegito and Gogeta where this strong because Goku and Vegeta have become gods. They have even surpassed that power.

So a Buu Saga Blue Goku or Vegeta would dominate any opponent. If after the defeat of Kid Buu, had passed 6 months for BoGs, then without getting any amazing results from training, Blue Goku and Vegeta (Buu saga) should hypothetically be superior even to their SSJG counterparts from the 14th movie.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Sat May 11, 2019 2:19 pm

Thus far, the only power of a fusee that HASN'T been definitively surpassed via Fusions has been Ultra Instinct.

Somehow, this power eludes the potential of even SSB Fusion, though the latter certainly approaches that level through raw power. Could be that, unlike other forms and power-ups, this one doesn't "count" towards the potential a Fusion has.

Either way, the fact that there's even an argument about whether SSB-level base Fusion stacked with SSB or Ultra Instinct is stronger should tell you how ludicrous this kind of power is. That's a boost many thousands of thousands of times stronger than base form.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Sat May 11, 2019 2:45 pm

Well, we have two Saiyan girls that have never experienced god ki and they succeeded in creating a warrior that can eclipse SSGod. I think it simply depends on the power of the ones that will merge, no matter in which circumstances. The higher the base, the higher the result.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Sat May 11, 2019 2:48 pm

Nokra wrote:
Sat May 11, 2019 8:47 am
By comparison Gohan got beat on by a weak yardrat who Freeza made his bitch in just base form
That was Base Gohan though so that's not really saying anything. Goku went Super Saiyan for him also.

There's really not that much separating them and you could make arguments for both. Android 17 was soon overpowered by Toppo but Ultimate Gohan defeated Koichiarator who was overpowering Super Saiyan Blue Goku and Vegeta at the same time.

He also defeated Dyspo and matched Saonel and Pirina at the same time. Android 17 didn't really beat anyone of any worth except Aniraza but that was under a unique circumstance anyway.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ruler9871 » Sat May 11, 2019 2:53 pm

Koitsukai wrote:
Sat May 11, 2019 2:07 pm
I was rewatching the Broly movie and I was wondering: If the super saiyan form of their fusion is above their SSB forms, would that mean that a hypothetical SSB from the Buu arc would be below Super Vegito, just like stronger versions of Goku and Vegeta were weaker than Super Gogeta in the movie? and if SS3 Goku from the Janemba movie would go SSB, he would too be weaker than Super Gogeta? even SSB Goku and SSB Vegeta wouldn't inflict as much damage to Buu-han as Super Vegito?

Fusions in Z were the strongest you could get, nobody on their own could reach that level, and I know we were told at the beginning of Super that the god forms could now do just that and surpass that benchmark and logically SS Blue would kill Vegito but then we even have base Gogeta doing better than SS Blue Goku.

In the FT arc, Goku managed to hurt Zamasu as a SSB, so Super Vegito would've been enough to control the fight by DBS Broly movie standards, right? even if not, Vegito Blue should right out toy with his enemy. But that was not the case.

So am I correct to say that Z Super Vegito would defeat Z SSBlue Goku? or am I missing something? The only change I see is that the saiyans got way stronger and have god ki and so should their fusion, but just as their strongest iterations fused had the edge over them, a "weaker" iteration should mantain the same pattern, right?
1. "If the super saiyan form of their fusion is above their SSB forms, would that mean that a hypothetical SSB from the Buu arc would be below Super Vegito"

That depends on how big of a multiplier SSB is in general.

2. "Fusions in Z were the strongest you could get, nobody on their own could reach that level, and I know we were told at the beginning of Super that the god forms could now do just that and surpass that benchmark and logically SS Blue would kill Vegito but then we even have base Gogeta doing better than SS Blue Goku."

You are forgetting that Fusion itself is a multiplier, not a fixed tier of power. Finger Fusion is A x B, while Potara is A x B x Rival Boost (which varies due to the partner's characters). That's why Base Vegito in the Buu arc was stronger than SSJ3 Goku and stronger than SSB Goku in the Black arc, why Base Kefla in the ToP was stronger than Mastered Berzerk Kale and why Base Gogeta in DBS Broly was stronger than Post-ToP SSB Goku.

3. "In the FT arc, Goku managed to hurt Zamasu as a SSB, so Super Vegito would've been enough to control the fight by DBS Broly movie standards, right? even if not, Vegito Blue should right out toy with his enemy. But that was not the case."

Merged Zamasu was not at max power when he fought SSBKKx10 Goku. It was only when M.Zamasu strikes himself with a the Lightning of Absolution and gains the purple arm is when he becomes powerful enough that Goku & Vegeta have to fuse to beat him.

4. "So am I correct to say that Z Super Vegito would defeat Z SSBlue Goku? or am I missing something? The only change I see is that the saiyans got way stronger and have god ki and so should their fusion, but just as their strongest iterations fused had the edge over them, a "weaker" iteration should mantain the same pattern, right?"

Yes, SSJ1 Z-Vegito would be much stronger than SSB Z-Goku due to the fusion formula (Base fusions tend to always be stronger than their individual halves' strongest natural transformation. The only exception to this seems to be MUI, which seems like a much bigger multiplier than SSB Fusion.)
zarmack wrote:The whole "Dragonball is only supposed to be light and funny" mentality that exist in a lot of the fandom is in many ways even dumber than the "edgeload" side of the fandom. You know, the contrarians who think DB should be a Slice-of-Life series, the folks who worship Pre-Raditz Dragonball uncritically, the folks who downplay and often flat-out deny that Dragonball is an action series, the folks who try to push that false argument that none of the serious moments in the series were mean't to be taken seriously, etc.

Dragonball doesn't have a single tone. It has both silly and serious moments, both humor and drama, just like real life. The idea that a work of fiction should be only all-comedy or all-serious is unnatural and frankly, retarded.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ruler9871 » Sat May 11, 2019 2:56 pm

Hugo Boss wrote:
Sat May 11, 2019 2:45 pm
Well, we have two Saiyan girls that have never experienced god ki and they succeeded in creating a warrior that can eclipse SSGod. I think it simply depends on the power of the ones that will merge, no matter in which circumstances. The higher the base, the higher the result.
God ki has nothing to do with strength. This has been pointed out multiple times.

Base Kefla being stronger than SSG Goku isn't much of a stretch, since Mastered Berzerk Kale herself wasn't too far away from SSG Goku and Base Fusions are always much stronger than their individual halves' strongest natural transformation at the time.
zarmack wrote:The whole "Dragonball is only supposed to be light and funny" mentality that exist in a lot of the fandom is in many ways even dumber than the "edgeload" side of the fandom. You know, the contrarians who think DB should be a Slice-of-Life series, the folks who worship Pre-Raditz Dragonball uncritically, the folks who downplay and often flat-out deny that Dragonball is an action series, the folks who try to push that false argument that none of the serious moments in the series were mean't to be taken seriously, etc.

Dragonball doesn't have a single tone. It has both silly and serious moments, both humor and drama, just like real life. The idea that a work of fiction should be only all-comedy or all-serious is unnatural and frankly, retarded.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Sat May 11, 2019 3:03 pm

Again, this is DB. It all comes down to power. Ever since Goku obtained god ki; which indeed raised his overall power. He still increased beyond that level. Naturally, future opponents level of power will be just as high or higher, in order for Goku to grow to new levels.

Kefla's base being more powerful than red Goku has a lot to do with Kale's power being Blue level.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Sat May 11, 2019 3:15 pm

I’m confused. Why SS Kale’s power should factor on Base Kafla’s power? I’m obviously talking about their regular states.

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