Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Grand Marshal 1
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Grand Marshal 1 » Mon May 13, 2019 8:09 am

Random opinion: End of FT arc Blue Goku=Pre ToP Blue Goku.

He never got any stronger and he even stated that he was getting rusty and although this can be interpreted in many different ways, this is what I get. So even if he did become slightly stronger, his statement would make it like he was even below his FT arc power. (And to be honest, I doubt that he reached his peak power from the FT arc, while against Merged Zamasu, until the fight with Jiren, KK out of the equation).

No need for hundreds or thousands of times for someone to get stronger. Anyway, I went off point. But yes, if a character can become stronger, they can become weaker too.

Random opinion 2: KK×10 Blue (TotD arc) > any Blue incarnatiom prior to the ToP, except from Blue KK used against Merged Zamasu, which is equal to it.

I find it unlikely that Blue Goku from the FT arc was above his KK×10 Blue from the TotD arc. That was a limit at the time. In the meantime he could only try and master the stable variant of said form, and get stronger to face off against new opponents, but nowhere near that level.

I think that his power became comparable in the FT arc, when he activated a normal KK on top of his full power as Blue, which is above pretty much all the incarnations of Blue (plus the Quake of Fury variant), before the ToP comes and gives some zenkais.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by wolflonnie » Mon May 13, 2019 8:19 am

Kenneth La Torre wrote:
Sun May 12, 2019 2:08 am
You know. In the situation that UI Goku battles beerus, and loses, or barely edges out a fight, I wonder how people who put UI Goku far above beerus would feel. It's not like the rematch would be one sided at all.
Annoyed by Beerus. Which started to happen more and more towards the end of Super.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Mon May 13, 2019 9:17 am

I do seriously hope we'll see Beerus stop being put on a pedestal. It's crazy enough that he's in the same ballpark as SSB Fusion, and I feel like we need to dial down the crazy for the time being.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Thani » Mon May 13, 2019 1:16 pm

I don't mind Beerus still being a powerhouse, but not to the extent of overshadowing both the other GoDs and other stabilished powerhouses like SSFP Broly, the SSB Fusions, MUI Goku and Jiren.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Mon May 13, 2019 2:55 pm

Grand Marshal 1 wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 8:09 am
Random opinion: End of FT arc Blue Goku=Pre ToP Blue Goku.

He never got any stronger and he even stated that he was getting rusty and although this can be interpreted in many different ways, this is what I get. So even if he did become slightly stronger, his statement would make it like he was even below his FT arc power. (And to be honest, I doubt that he reached his peak power from the FT arc, while against Merged Zamasu, until the fight with Jiren, KK out of the equation).

No need for hundreds or thousands of times for someone to get stronger. Anyway, I went off point. But yes, if a character can become stronger, they can become weaker too.
Goku got stronger. He told Freeza so after they both KO'd each other. Not to mention before that he fought in the exhibition matches and trained a little bit with Whis in the gravity chamber.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Mon May 13, 2019 4:07 pm

Miracles wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 2:55 pm
Grand Marshal 1 wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 8:09 am
Random opinion: End of FT arc Blue Goku=Pre ToP Blue Goku.

He never got any stronger and he even stated that he was getting rusty and although this can be interpreted in many different ways, this is what I get. So even if he did become slightly stronger, his statement would make it like he was even below his FT arc power. (And to be honest, I doubt that he reached his peak power from the FT arc, while against Merged Zamasu, until the fight with Jiren, KK out of the equation).

No need for hundreds or thousands of times for someone to get stronger. Anyway, I went off point. But yes, if a character can become stronger, they can become weaker too.
Goku got stronger. He told Freeza so after they both KO'd each other. Not to mention before that he fought in the exhibition matches and trained a little bit with Whis in the gravity chamber.
I recall Goku training with Whis and some blows exchanged with Buu, Gohan, 17, etc which count as some sort of work out, but about Goku's comment, wasn't it regarding the last time they met, meaning RoF? there is no doubt about that.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Mon May 13, 2019 7:13 pm

Koitsukai wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 4:07 pm
Miracles wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 2:55 pm
Grand Marshal 1 wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 8:09 am
Random opinion: End of FT arc Blue Goku=Pre ToP Blue Goku.

He never got any stronger and he even stated that he was getting rusty and although this can be interpreted in many different ways, this is what I get. So even if he did become slightly stronger, his statement would make it like he was even below his FT arc power. (And to be honest, I doubt that he reached his peak power from the FT arc, while against Merged Zamasu, until the fight with Jiren, KK out of the equation).

No need for hundreds or thousands of times for someone to get stronger. Anyway, I went off point. But yes, if a character can become stronger, they can become weaker too.
Goku got stronger. He told Freeza so after they both KO'd each other. Not to mention before that he fought in the exhibition matches and trained a little bit with Whis in the gravity chamber.
I recall Goku training with Whis and some blows exchanged with Buu, Gohan, 17, etc which count as some sort of work out, but about Goku's comment, wasn't it regarding the last time they met, meaning RoF? there is no doubt about that.
All that transpired since RoF until they met again before the TOP.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Tue May 14, 2019 12:16 am

Miracles wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 2:55 pm
Grand Marshal 1 wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 8:09 am
Random opinion: End of FT arc Blue Goku=Pre ToP Blue Goku.

He never got any stronger and he even stated that he was getting rusty and although this can be interpreted in many different ways, this is what I get. So even if he did become slightly stronger, his statement would make it like he was even below his FT arc power. (And to be honest, I doubt that he reached his peak power from the FT arc, while against Merged Zamasu, until the fight with Jiren, KK out of the equation).

No need for hundreds or thousands of times for someone to get stronger. Anyway, I went off point. But yes, if a character can become stronger, they can become weaker too.
Goku got stronger. He told Freeza so after they both KO'd each other. Not to mention before that he fought in the exhibition matches and trained a little bit with Whis in the gravity chamber.
While I do agree that Goku got a stronger (He mastered Kaioken after all), he was referring in that quote to his RoF self since that was the last time Freeza saw him.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Kenneth La Torre » Thu May 16, 2019 2:21 pm

Some "leaks" (not really leaks, more like reactions) about the next chapter has come out. What MShadows from naruto forums got from it was that this arc will likely conclude rather soon, and that possibly Moro isn't the main threat, or isn't a main threat, don't know which one it is.


Tho since this is a power scaling thread, let's talk about this.
To me, I think we are not going to be seeing hakaishin+ level antagonists lioe Broly or Jiren for a while. I feel like UI and Fusion will sit out for a while, and without them, they aren't scrarching any of the hakaishins any time soon. I'm probably wrong, but the Moro arc is giving me a feeling that's how it's going to be for now, until a big major arc. I feel like Goku will have his rematch with beerus first before stepping into a territory higher than Jiren or Broly.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Thu May 16, 2019 3:22 pm

ZombieVito wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 12:16 am
Miracles wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 2:55 pm
Grand Marshal 1 wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 8:09 am
Random opinion: End of FT arc Blue Goku=Pre ToP Blue Goku.

He never got any stronger and he even stated that he was getting rusty and although this can be interpreted in many different ways, this is what I get. So even if he did become slightly stronger, his statement would make it like he was even below his FT arc power. (And to be honest, I doubt that he reached his peak power from the FT arc, while against Merged Zamasu, until the fight with Jiren, KK out of the equation).

No need for hundreds or thousands of times for someone to get stronger. Anyway, I went off point. But yes, if a character can become stronger, they can become weaker too.
Goku got stronger. He told Freeza so after they both KO'd each other. Not to mention before that he fought in the exhibition matches and trained a little bit with Whis in the gravity chamber.
While I do agree that Goku got a stronger (He mastered Kaioken after all), he was referring in that quote to his RoF self since that was the last time Freeza saw him.
Goku said "WHILE FREEZA WAS IN HELL..."He has been fighting strong guys from other universes. That includes the exhibition matches, that means all that has happened during Freeza's stay in Hell. Not just referring to his RoF self.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Thu May 16, 2019 6:04 pm

Miracles wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 3:22 pm
ZombieVito wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 12:16 am
Miracles wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 2:55 pm

Goku got stronger. He told Freeza so after they both KO'd each other. Not to mention before that he fought in the exhibition matches and trained a little bit with Whis in the gravity chamber.
While I do agree that Goku got a stronger (He mastered Kaioken after all), he was referring in that quote to his RoF self since that was the last time Freeza saw him.
Goku said "WHILE FREEZA WAS IN HELL..."He has been fighting strong guys from other universes. That includes the exhibition matches, that means all that has happened during Freeza's stay in Hell. Not just referring to his RoF self.
Maybe I was confusing.

All I'm trying to say is that Goku could have not gotten stronger after the FT arc and that line still works.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ruler9871 » Fri May 17, 2019 11:44 am

Was there ever a clear statement in or outside the series of how much stronger Whis is compared to Beerus?
zarmack wrote:The whole "Dragonball is only supposed to be light and funny" mentality that exist in a lot of the fandom is in many ways even dumber than the "edgeload" side of the fandom. You know, the contrarians who think DB should be a Slice-of-Life series, the folks who worship Pre-Raditz Dragonball uncritically, the folks who downplay and often flat-out deny that Dragonball is an action series, the folks who try to push that false argument that none of the serious moments in the series were mean't to be taken seriously, etc.

Dragonball doesn't have a single tone. It has both silly and serious moments, both humor and drama, just like real life. The idea that a work of fiction should be only all-comedy or all-serious is unnatural and frankly, retarded.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Nokra » Fri May 17, 2019 11:49 am

ruler9871 wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 11:44 am
Was there ever a clear statement in or outside the series of how much stronger Whis is compared to Beerus?
Beerus is a 10 while whis is a 15 according to Toriyama.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ruler9871 » Fri May 17, 2019 11:54 am

Nokra wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 11:49 am
ruler9871 wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 11:44 am
Was there ever a clear statement in or outside the series of how much stronger Whis is compared to Beerus?
Beerus is a 10 while whis is a 15 according to Toriyama.
That was retconned (and only applies to the Z movie version). I'm talking about generally how much stronger the Angels are compared to the Hakaishin.
zarmack wrote:The whole "Dragonball is only supposed to be light and funny" mentality that exist in a lot of the fandom is in many ways even dumber than the "edgeload" side of the fandom. You know, the contrarians who think DB should be a Slice-of-Life series, the folks who worship Pre-Raditz Dragonball uncritically, the folks who downplay and often flat-out deny that Dragonball is an action series, the folks who try to push that false argument that none of the serious moments in the series were mean't to be taken seriously, etc.

Dragonball doesn't have a single tone. It has both silly and serious moments, both humor and drama, just like real life. The idea that a work of fiction should be only all-comedy or all-serious is unnatural and frankly, retarded.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Nokra » Fri May 17, 2019 11:58 am

ruler9871 wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 11:54 am
Nokra wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 11:49 am
ruler9871 wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 11:44 am
Was there ever a clear statement in or outside the series of how much stronger Whis is compared to Beerus?
Beerus is a 10 while whis is a 15 according to Toriyama.
That was retconned (and only applies to the Z movie version). I'm talking about generally how much stronger the Angels are compared to the Hakaishin.
How can something Toriyama came up with be "retconned" unless he did so himself? Was it ever stated that the movie scale is retconned?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Fri May 17, 2019 1:15 pm

Though never directly stated by an official source, the numbers Toriyama came up to SSGod and Beerus are difficult to reconcile with the events of Dragon Ball Super, because that would require Goku to be at less than 10 by the time he prepares to fight Jiren.

Since Goku fought Beerus, he has acquired SSBlue and on top of that he blended Blue with kaioken in the anime, which literally multiplies battle power, making it impossible for Goku to be still weaker than Beerus, despite having direct implications that he was still weaker.

The manga is a little easier to reconcile, because it doesn’t have kaioken in it, and SSGod is still implied to rival the Gods, despite having stronger forms.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Nokra » Fri May 17, 2019 1:44 pm

Hugo Boss wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 1:15 pm
Though never directly stated by an official source, the numbers Toriyama came up to SSGod and Beerus are difficult to reconcile with the events of Dragon Ball Super, because that would require Goku to be at less than 10 by the time he prepares to fight Jiren.

Since Goku fought Beerus, he has acquired SSBlue and on top of that he blended Blue with kaioken in the anime, which literally multiplies battle power, making it impossible for Goku to be still weaker than Beerus, despite having direct implications that he was still weaker.

The manga is a little easier to reconcile, because it doesn’t have kaioken in it, and SSGod is still implied to rival the Gods, despite having stronger forms.
All that means is goku rivals/surpasses beerus in power now which is obvious when you factor in MUI in which case he definitely surpasses and most likely one shots.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ruler9871 » Fri May 17, 2019 2:20 pm

Nokra wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 11:58 am
ruler9871 wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 11:54 am
Nokra wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 11:49 am


Beerus is a 10 while whis is a 15 according to Toriyama.
That was retconned (and only applies to the Z movie version). I'm talking about generally how much stronger the Angels are compared to the Hakaishin.
How can something Toriyama came up with be "retconned" unless he did so himself? Was it ever stated that the movie scale is retconned?
There's no way the 6-10-15 scale from the BoG movie is still valid, because even if you downplay SSB to being only 2x SSG, it would still mean that Goku & Vegeta surpassed Beerus in RoF.
zarmack wrote:The whole "Dragonball is only supposed to be light and funny" mentality that exist in a lot of the fandom is in many ways even dumber than the "edgeload" side of the fandom. You know, the contrarians who think DB should be a Slice-of-Life series, the folks who worship Pre-Raditz Dragonball uncritically, the folks who downplay and often flat-out deny that Dragonball is an action series, the folks who try to push that false argument that none of the serious moments in the series were mean't to be taken seriously, etc.

Dragonball doesn't have a single tone. It has both silly and serious moments, both humor and drama, just like real life. The idea that a work of fiction should be only all-comedy or all-serious is unnatural and frankly, retarded.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Thani » Fri May 17, 2019 2:41 pm

The scale don't need to be read like that, but yeah. Godku being a 6 makes no sense anymore since it's been regarded in Super as useless against a serious GoD, both in the ToP and Broly.

With Blue being unable to match a suppressed Jiren and a SS Broly, it's also pretty clear it's no match either against the active Gods of Destruction. And then there's the curbstomp Vegeta receives from Beerus.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Fri May 17, 2019 3:00 pm

There's also the fact that only SSB Fusions are implied to truly rival Gods of Destruction in raw power.

And with said Fusions having base forms equal to their fusees' god forms, it really plays up just how bloated things have become.

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