Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

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Miracles
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Thu May 23, 2019 5:11 pm

Hugo Boss wrote:
Thu May 23, 2019 5:06 pm
That was before he absorbed Goku and Vegeta’s energy though. He also increased his battle power when he got younger and during his Dragon Ball hunt. Considering that, could his battle power be lower than SSBlue by the time he fights Boo?
It's literally an unknown at that point.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Thani » Thu May 23, 2019 7:22 pm

Like Miracles said, it's unknown. Moro's main scthick was not using his own power, but the planet's. So even if he's stronger now (before the wish to restore his full magic), he was still relying in the planet's energy, which was topped by SSBE Vegeta.

I'd argue that even that younger, he would still lose in a straight combat if he didn't buy time to absorb their ki. But that's just a guess, we can't know for now.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Super Murjin » Fri May 24, 2019 5:18 pm

Hey everyone,

Been working on this for a couple of years. Just wondering what people's thoughts are. I used Toriyama's power scale from Battle of Gods (Goku 6, Beerus 10 & Whis 15). Note, I tried to stick with the Dragon Ball & Dragon Ball Super manga as well as the three most recent Dragon Ball films (Battle of Gods, Resurrection F & Broly), throw in there Jaco's manga and Dragon Ball Minus.

∞. Zeno, Zeno (future)
?. Grand Priest
15. Whis, Vados, Cognac, Awamo, Marcarita, Mojito, Cus, Cukatail, Korn, Martinu, Campari, Sour
14.
13.
12.
11. Goku UI, Gogeta SSB, Broly SSJFP, Jiren, Vegetto SSB
10. Beerus, Champa, Sidra, Iwen, Helles, Mosco, Quitela, Arak, Liquir, Rumsshi, Belmod, Gene,
09.
08. Merged Zamasu, Broly SSJ, Goku SSB(C), Vegeta SSB(C)
07. Goku SSB, Vegeta SSB, Golden Frieza, Hit, Goku Black SSR, Toppo (god ki), Broly (Wrathful)
06. Goku SSG, Vegeta SSG, Yamoshi SSG
05.
04. Goku Black SSJ, Frieza (after training), Goku w/ SSG(P), Vegeta w/ SSG(P), Vegetto SSJ, Toppo, Kefla SSJ, Mystic Gohan (after training), Gogeta SSJ, Super Buu (Mystic Gohan absorbed), Super Buu (Gotenks SSJ3 absorbed), Mr Buu (after controlled by Dai Kaioshin), Moro
03. Goku SSJ3, Majin Buu, Mr Buu, Vegeta SSJ2, Future Trunks SSJ2, Gotenks SSJ3, Mystic Gohan, Super Buu, Android 17 (after training), Vegetto, Kefla, Kale SSJFP, Anilaza, Dai Kaioshin, Gogeta, Super Buu (Piccolo absorbed), Dyspo, Goku Black
02. Goku SSJ2, Gohan SSJ2, Super Perfect Cell, Dabura, Zamasu
01. Goku SSJ, Vegeta SSJ, Gohan SSJ, Future Trunks SSJ, Goten SSJ, Trunks SSJ, Frieza, Piccolo, Magetta, Pui Pui, Android 16, Android 17, Android 18, Android 19, Android 20, Cell Jr, King Cold, Yakon, Frost, Cabba SSJ, Shin, Kibito, Kale SSJ, Caulifla SSJ, Vuon, Kahseral, Tupper, Zoiray, Kettol, Kunshi, Perfect Cell, Ribrianne, Kakunsa, Rozie, Basil, Lavender, Bergamo, Rozel, Hyssop, Chappil, Comfrey, Obuni, Napapa, Mulithim, Damon, Gamisaras, Majora, Ganos, Yamoshi SSJ, Gotenks SSJ, Aka
00. Goku, Vegeta, Gohan, Future Trunks, Goten, Trunks, Nappa, Raditz, Saibaman, Krillin, Tenshinhan, Chaozu, Ginyu, Barta, Guldo, Jeice, Zarbon, Dodoria, Appule, Kui, King Piccolo, Drum, Tambourine, Cymbal, Android 8, Buyon, General Blue, Tao Pai Pai, Master Roshi, Jaco, Shashimi, Sorbet, Tagoma, Bardock, Fangs, Bandages, Akkuman, Invisible Man, Giran, Nam, Grandpa Gohan, Avo, Cado, Tarble, Cabba, Kale, Caulifla, Botamo, Merus, Broly, Zarbuto, Rabanra, Jimeze, Vikal, Zirloin, Prum, Hermila, The Preecho, Narirama, Maji Kayo, Katopesla, Bollarator, Koitsukai, Viara, Panchia, Paparoni, Nigrissi, Pirina, Saonel, Oregano, Dr. Rota, Sorrel, Hopp, Zium, Jilcol, Rubalt, Methiop, Murisarm, Jirasen, Lilibeu, Shantza, Nink, Monna, Shosa, Dercori, Caway, Abo, Cado, Tarble, Leek, King Vegeta, Paragus, King Sadala, Yamoshi, Beets, Gine, Taro, Moroko, King Vegeta’s Majordomo, Lemo, Cheelai, Berryblue, Kikono, Ba, Cranberry

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Kenneth La Torre
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Kenneth La Torre » Tue May 28, 2019 2:48 am

I feel like this arc is an appetizer for what's to come in a next arc. I have my doubts that they'll keep introducing opponents above hakaishin level. That is just ridiculous considering how far above that realm of power is without UI or a Blue fusion. I think know Broly and Jiren will stick around as the strongest opponents for a little bit. Moro will likely be below hakaishin level.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ssj3kakarot » Thu May 30, 2019 12:31 pm

Hugo Boss wrote:
Tue May 21, 2019 10:18 pm
ssj3kakarot wrote:
Tue May 21, 2019 1:45 pm
Even with everything it's hard for me to say that Buu has surpassed Goku and Vegeta in terms of power output. It seems its more due to the magic vs magic fight that is giving him the main advantage.
Although Boo’s special abilities let him overcome some of Moro’s moves, I think he is definitely more powerful than Moro, even after he grew stronger after absorbing Goku and Vegeta’s energy. It’s much easier to swallow it when you consider that Freeza, No. 17 and Gohan can rival SSBlue nowadays. If Boo started better than them, it’s likely that his unlocked potential would be greater as well.
I guess I don't consider that Gohan or No. 17 rival SSB. Both personally, and based off what is shown. Personally, i think it's absolute garbage writing to make Gohan and No. 17 rival a form that just a few years prior wasn't even a thought to grasp by the likes of Goku. Gohan has potential, we all get it, but to the extent that he trains a little and yields a boost so great it dwarfs anything we've ever seen.

No. 17 isn't as strong as SSB. I guess I take stuff from both manga and show to draw that conclusion. But 17 does so well in general because he has infinite stamina basically. He is drastically stronger than before however.

all the evidence is the fight of the 2v1 against Toppo. He tanks a blast from Gohan and laughs at it.

Freeza and Buu are the exceptions of people who i think have actually in universe merrit for achieving and surpassing Goku and Vegeta. Buu is an anomoly who can do nearly anything, he was introduced with a crazy high power level to start. Freeza is a freak of nature prodigy. We are lead to believe hes had a power level of 120 mil since birth basically, or from an early age. That is insane. So of course his genetic potential should be absurd. Never training a day in his life yet he has this power? It makes since if he trains even a little that his pay off will be huge. No 17 isn't the same bc he was designed to be absorbed by Cell. That was his role in the series.

To think that Gohan and No. 17 have closed the gap with Goku and Vegeta is laughable. They have spent years since Buu saga training in the ROSAT as well as inside Whis's staff, on Beerus planet, etc. Anything that says otherwise can be ignored as POS writing. It's like arguing that Krillin "forced" Goku into SSJ, lets not even talk about Goku going Blue.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Nokra » Thu May 30, 2019 1:57 pm

ssj3kakarot wrote:
Thu May 30, 2019 12:31 pm
Hugo Boss wrote:
Tue May 21, 2019 10:18 pm
ssj3kakarot wrote:
Tue May 21, 2019 1:45 pm
Even with everything it's hard for me to say that Buu has surpassed Goku and Vegeta in terms of power output. It seems its more due to the magic vs magic fight that is giving him the main advantage.
Although Boo’s special abilities let him overcome some of Moro’s moves, I think he is definitely more powerful than Moro, even after he grew stronger after absorbing Goku and Vegeta’s energy. It’s much easier to swallow it when you consider that Freeza, No. 17 and Gohan can rival SSBlue nowadays. If Boo started better than them, it’s likely that his unlocked potential would be greater as well.
I guess I don't consider that Gohan or No. 17 rival SSB. Both personally, and based off what is shown. Personally, i think it's absolute garbage writing to make Gohan and No. 17 rival a form that just a few years prior wasn't even a thought to grasp by the likes of Goku. Gohan has potential, we all get it, but to the extent that he trains a little and yields a boost so great it dwarfs anything we've ever seen.

No. 17 isn't as strong as SSB. I guess I take stuff from both manga and show to draw that conclusion. But 17 does so well in general because he has infinite stamina basically. He is drastically stronger than before however.

all the evidence is the fight of the 2v1 against Toppo. He tanks a blast from Gohan and laughs at it.

Freeza and Buu are the exceptions of people who i think have actually in universe merrit for achieving and surpassing Goku and Vegeta. Buu is an anomoly who can do nearly anything, he was introduced with a crazy high power level to start. Freeza is a freak of nature prodigy. We are lead to believe hes had a power level of 120 mil since birth basically, or from an early age. That is insane. So of course his genetic potential should be absurd. Never training a day in his life yet he has this power? It makes since if he trains even a little that his pay off will be huge. No 17 isn't the same bc he was designed to be absorbed by Cell. That was his role in the series.

To think that Gohan and No. 17 have closed the gap with Goku and Vegeta is laughable. They have spent years since Buu saga training in the ROSAT as well as inside Whis's staff, on Beerus planet, etc. Anything that says otherwise can be ignored as POS writing. It's like arguing that Krillin "forced" Goku into SSJ, lets not even talk about Goku going Blue.
One word: Denial.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Thu May 30, 2019 4:34 pm

Gohan was stated to rival SSB so there's no way around that but 17 admitted inferiority to Golden Freeza so he shouldn't rival SSB since the latter is equal to it.

SSB Goku/Freeza: 10
Gohan: 8
17: 7

That's my take.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Thu May 30, 2019 9:57 pm

When I say Gohan and No. 17 rivaled SSBlue, it was in the sense that they are not quite as strong, but in a range not very different.

The manga is a little more evident than the anime in this aspect. SS Kafla is supposed to be about as strong or stronger than SSBlue and Gohan matched her. Krillin even wondered if Gohan could surpass Goku. After the tournament ended, Goku said No.17 was almost as strong as him.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Amir » Fri May 31, 2019 1:38 am

ZombieVito wrote:
Thu May 30, 2019 4:34 pm
Gohan was stated to rival SSB so there's no way around that but 17 admitted inferiority to Golden Freeza so he shouldn't rival SSB since the latter is equal to it.

SSB Goku/Freeza: 10
Gohan: 8
17: 7

That's my take.
17 said it when he was severely weakened, more than Frieza was. I mean he had troubles moving and jumping, it was visibly tough for him to do. There's a reason he was on the back up when fighting Jiren.

17 managed to fight Jiren and tank more damage better than SSJBE Vegeta and Blue Kaioken Goku, so the majority of the feats put him above even Blue Goku let alone Gohan. But it is inconsistent.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Fri May 31, 2019 12:41 pm

Amir wrote:
Fri May 31, 2019 1:38 am
17 said it when he was severely weakened, more than Frieza was. I mean he had troubles moving and jumping, it was visibly tough for him to do. There's a reason he was on the back up when fighting Jiren.

17 managed to fight Jiren and tank more damage better than SSJBE Vegeta and Blue Kaioken Goku, so the majority of the feats put him above even Blue Goku let alone Gohan. But it is inconsistent.
People need to learn what tanking is.

Not a single character in all of the ToP tanked a punch from Jiren.

Regardless, in E119 a weakened SSB Goku was able to stand up inside the black hole while 17 couldn't. 17 isn't touching the Blues or Golden Freeza at full power.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Nokra » Fri May 31, 2019 2:17 pm

ZombieVito wrote:
Fri May 31, 2019 12:41 pm
Amir wrote:
Fri May 31, 2019 1:38 am
17 said it when he was severely weakened, more than Frieza was. I mean he had troubles moving and jumping, it was visibly tough for him to do. There's a reason he was on the back up when fighting Jiren.

17 managed to fight Jiren and tank more damage better than SSJBE Vegeta and Blue Kaioken Goku, so the majority of the feats put him above even Blue Goku let alone Gohan. But it is inconsistent.
People need to learn what tanking is.

Not a single character in all of the ToP tanked a punch from Jiren.

Regardless, in E119 a weakened SSB Goku was able to stand up inside the black hole while 17 couldn't. 17 isn't touching the Blues or Golden Freeza at full power.
He doesn't have to. Infinite energy and barrier hax will tire them out then he can just one shot and creampie blue goku or vegeta and yellow piss freeza.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Fri May 31, 2019 4:37 pm

Nokra wrote:
Fri May 31, 2019 2:17 pm
ZombieVito wrote:
Fri May 31, 2019 12:41 pm
Amir wrote:
Fri May 31, 2019 1:38 am
17 said it when he was severely weakened, more than Frieza was. I mean he had troubles moving and jumping, it was visibly tough for him to do. There's a reason he was on the back up when fighting Jiren.

17 managed to fight Jiren and tank more damage better than SSJBE Vegeta and Blue Kaioken Goku, so the majority of the feats put him above even Blue Goku let alone Gohan. But it is inconsistent.
People need to learn what tanking is.

Not a single character in all of the ToP tanked a punch from Jiren.

Regardless, in E119 a weakened SSB Goku was able to stand up inside the black hole while 17 couldn't. 17 isn't touching the Blues or Golden Freeza at full power.
He doesn't have to. Infinite energy and barrier hax will tire them out then he can just one shot and creampie blue goku or vegeta and yellow piss freeza.
Infinite stamina is pointless if you are considerably weaker and can get damaged.

Don't confuse it with immortality.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Nokra » Sat Jun 01, 2019 12:08 am

ZombieVito wrote:
Fri May 31, 2019 4:37 pm
Nokra wrote:
Fri May 31, 2019 2:17 pm
ZombieVito wrote:
Fri May 31, 2019 12:41 pm

People need to learn what tanking is.

Not a single character in all of the ToP tanked a punch from Jiren.

Regardless, in E119 a weakened SSB Goku was able to stand up inside the black hole while 17 couldn't. 17 isn't touching the Blues or Golden Freeza at full power.
He doesn't have to. Infinite energy and barrier hax will tire them out then he can just one shot and creampie blue goku or vegeta and yellow piss freeza.
Infinite stamina is pointless if you are considerably weaker and can get damaged.

Don't confuse it with immortality.
17 isn't "considerably weaker" than either goku or vegeta though. He forced goku to use blue. His barrier, infinite energy and strategic mind would win against vegeta at least since vegeta isn't tactical nor strategic and only uses brute force. goku would wiin because "plot" obviously.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Super Murjin » Sat Jun 01, 2019 12:12 am

Interesting nobody acknowledges my version of the characters power scale using Toriyama's 1-15 system. :?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by The Monkey King » Sat Jun 01, 2019 7:32 am

Super Murjin wrote:
Sat Jun 01, 2019 12:12 am
Interesting nobody acknowledges my version of the characters power scale using Toriyama's 1-15 system. :?
I can dig it, the only thing that really strikes me as weird is having SSJG Yamoshi be that strong.

Doesn't the SSJG power depend on the power of the saiyans during the ritual?
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Amir » Sat Jun 01, 2019 9:33 am

ZombieVito wrote:
Fri May 31, 2019 12:41 pm
Amir wrote:
Fri May 31, 2019 1:38 am
17 said it when he was severely weakened, more than Frieza was. I mean he had troubles moving and jumping, it was visibly tough for him to do. There's a reason he was on the back up when fighting Jiren.

17 managed to fight Jiren and tank more damage better than SSJBE Vegeta and Blue Kaioken Goku, so the majority of the feats put him above even Blue Goku let alone Gohan. But it is inconsistent.
People need to learn what tanking is.

Not a single character in all of the ToP tanked a punch from Jiren.

Regardless, in E119 a weakened SSB Goku was able to stand up inside the black hole while 17 couldn't. 17 isn't touching the Blues or Golden Freeza at full power.
Okey so not tanking but rather having better defence and taking hits better. After Jiren's colossal explosive wave sent all 3 of them down, he got up first and fought him one on one, taking hits, blocking and countering. It was futuile of course but he at least managed that, while they were on the ground unable to get up.

In 119, Base Goku managed to get up too while 17 and 18 were down. According to your logic then base Goku is also stronger than 17. The fact 17 even needed 18 against those universe 2 characters was bad writing for the sake of teamwork. It is obvious because he later did some really impressive things he wouldn't have managed to do if he was serious with those universe 2 weaklings.

17 was just a tiny bit weaker than the Blues in raw power, and in episode 127 he got a ridiculous power up that put him above them for some reason.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Sat Jun 01, 2019 8:37 pm

Nokra wrote:
Sat Jun 01, 2019 12:08 am
17 isn't "considerably weaker" than either goku or vegeta though. He forced goku to use blue. His barrier, infinite energy and strategic mind would win against vegeta at least since vegeta isn't tactical nor strategic and only uses brute force. goku would wiin because "plot" obviously.
He is though.

- He couldn't stand up inside the black hole while a weakned Blue Goku did.
- He couldn't beat Toppo with help.
- Called Golden Freeza a monster.

You are giving his barrier to much credit. Any powerful blast from Goku or Vegeta would break it.
Super Murjin wrote:
Sat Jun 01, 2019 12:12 am
Interesting nobody acknowledges my version of the characters power scale using Toriyama's 1-15 system. :?
It's nothing personal. I just hate the Super manga. Maybe even more than GT.
Amir wrote:
Sat Jun 01, 2019 9:33 am
Okey so not tanking but rather having better defence and taking hits better. After Jiren's colossal explosive wave sent all 3 of them down, he got up first and fought him one on one, taking hits, blocking and countering. It was futuile of course but he at least managed that, while they were on the ground unable to get up.

In 119, Base Goku managed to get up too while 17 and 18 were down. According to your logic then base Goku is also stronger than 17. The fact 17 even needed 18 against those universe 2 characters was bad writing for the sake of teamwork. It is obvious because he later did some really impressive things he wouldn't have managed to do if he was serious with those universe 2 weaklings.

17 was just a tiny bit weaker than the Blues in raw power, and in episode 127 he got a ridiculous power up that put him above them for some reason.
Taking hits better has nothing to do with power and of course he will get up faster than them. He hasn't been damaged/weakened by that point. Goku and Vegeta weren't at 100% there. Hell, Vegeta was said to be exhausted.

Goku was still kneeling before transforming into Blue in E119.

17 can't be a "tiny" bit weaker than them and call Freeza a monster. There's has to be a considerable gap for that.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ssj3kakarot » Sun Jun 02, 2019 12:43 am

I guess defining terms is kinda important in all of this.

People are saying that Gohan and No 17 are in the same realm as SSB Goku/Vegeta.

How are we defining realm? Close to similar power levels? Above a certain power tier?
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Sun Jun 02, 2019 12:57 am

Gohan only "rivaled" Blue Goku before the TOP. During the TOP Gohan couldn't bust a grape against Toppo. Whom Blue Vegeta was battling evenly. I think we can legitimately define Gohan's power as noticeably below Blue at the time of the TOP.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Sun Jun 02, 2019 7:10 am

The way I see it, 17 and Gohan seem to be in a similar level of power to Ikari Broly before he powered up further to fight Goku, the one that was stronger than SSG Vegeta.

Still fodder to SSB, but definitely solidly at a massively high power level compared to anything before god power came up.

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