Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by omegacwa » Wed Jun 19, 2019 2:04 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2019 1:44 pm
So where would everyone put the anime verison of Infinite Zamasu? The one that merged with the very fabric of the cosmos?
Unquantifiable. There is no way to gauge it other than "Can be destroyed by Zeno" "Can't be destroyed by Mortals (Not confirmed)".

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by SupremeKai25 » Wed Jun 19, 2019 2:06 pm

omegacwa wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2019 2:04 pm
SupremeKai25 wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2019 1:44 pm
So where would everyone put the anime verison of Infinite Zamasu? The one that merged with the very fabric of the cosmos?
Unquantifiable. There is no way to gauge it other than "Can be destroyed by Zeno" "Can't be destroyed by Mortals (Not confirmed)".
I thought as much. Some people put him below ep.109 Jiren because Shin said that Jiren was the strongest enemy they've ever faced, but imho that's stupid.
"Behold this ultimate vessel. The sword and shield made one. Its strength knows no limits. The power coursing through me is exceptional, glorious, absolute. Stare in awe, I AM JUSTICE INCARNATE!!!"

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Wed Jun 19, 2019 2:24 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2019 1:44 pm
So where would everyone put the anime verison of Infinite Zamasu? The one that merged with the very fabric of the cosmos?
Power level? Strong as Corrupt Merged Zamasu. Strong, but not the strongest. The hax is what keeps him from being defeated conventionally.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Wed Jun 19, 2019 6:24 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2019 1:44 pm
So where would everyone put the anime verison of Infinite Zamasu? The one that merged with the very fabric of the cosmos?
Infinity.

About The Trío De Danger:

None of them are higher than base Goku since they all failed to beat him even while teaming up. Also Gohan at the tournament wasnt remotely close to Goku's level since he's confirmed in E88 that he's equal to his Boo arc level. This puts Lavender several tiers below base Goku.

About Ribrianne:

It really doesnt matter if she fought SS Vegeta. The fact is she couldnt beat him in base later so this proofs Vegeta was going easy with her at first. Zirlloin also got her power and couldnt hit an exahusted base Goku, at all.

About Kale:

Why is E100 still taken into cosideration? Goku clearly says he's holding back as Blue with her... Later on a stronger Kale failed to beat a tired SSG Goku.

About Boo:

Do people realize that Boo is SS2 tier but from the Boo arc right? That level of power doesn't even reach current base Goku, at all. This is why after training he can now fight on par with base Goku.

About the humans:

Doesn't really matter if it doesn't make sense. Kuririn >> Tenshinhan is word from god.

Roshi is debatable sure but we do have him beating Tenshinhan in Super.

About 17:

The guy forced Goku to use a suppressed Blue form so he at minimum is stronger than SSG. No way around that.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by CJStriker_CBR » Wed Jun 19, 2019 7:37 pm

ZombieVito wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2019 6:24 pm
About Kale:

Why is E100 still taken into cosideration? Goku clearly says he's holding back as Blue with her... Later on a stronger Kale failed to beat a tired SSG Goku.
I am curious about that Now :think: , I am not the best recorded keeper of all that was said about Kale, so with Goku at a moment saying that in the Anime Then I like to know it to keep it in mind.

If possible, can you point to the episode and/or have a screen shot when Goku said that?! :think:
ZombieVito wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2019 6:24 pm
About Ribrianne:

It really doesnt matter if she fought SS Vegeta. The fact is she couldnt beat him in base later so this proofs Vegeta was going easy with her at first. Zirlloin also got her power and couldnt hit an exahusted base Goku, at all.
The Zirlloin example is hard to figure since he got more of her skills and looks then anything else. But let’s say he got a power up too, he never used Ribrianne’s Enraged, Super or Giant forms, only her base format, which her base is hardly her best level.

It was never stated or given context or said by any characters either Vegeta or others that in Episode 102 he was holding back, so thats not truly definitive as an explanation.

It is just as plausible of Ribrianne’s decreases being cause by battle fatigue or lose of personal confidence that seem to be an important point state in episode 111. But like the holding back, their is no definitive statement it could have been those either.

So it seems the only likely reason comes down to inconsistent writing that results in a later unexplained nerfing that is out of major consistency with early episode showings of greater strength and power.
--- ADMIN NOTE: THIS SIGNATURE IS FAR TOO LONG. PLEASE REDUCE IN SIZE. ---

Let it Bloom. Let it Ring. The Song of Love & Victory!”
~~ Brianne De Chateau ~ Episode 102, of Dragon Ball Super!
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Brianne De Chateau~~Ribrianne!~~
My #1 Favorite in All of Dragon Ball!
:thumbup:

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ankokudaishogun » Wed Jun 19, 2019 8:48 pm

wolflonnie wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2019 2:06 am
Yeah it fits surprisingly well with Kefla and Gogeta against Broly.
I know right? When everything is put together, it's surprisingly coherent.
The guy forced Goku to use a suppressed Blue form so he at minimum is stronger than SSG. No way around that.
No, at minimum is stronger than SS2.
Goku nowadays basically skips both SS3 and God unless he wants to show-off or has some specific need.

The perfect Ki Control of Blue means it's better at being SS3-level and SSG-level than SS3 and SSG

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Wed Jun 19, 2019 9:23 pm

CJStriker_CBR wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2019 7:37 pm
ZombieVito wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2019 6:24 pm
About Kale:

Why is E100 still taken into cosideration? Goku clearly says he's holding back as Blue with her... Later on a stronger Kale failed to beat a tired SSG Goku.
I am curious about that Now :think: , I am not the best recorded keeper of all that was said about Kale, so with Goku at a moment saying that in the Anime Then I like to know it to keep it in mind.

If possible, can you point to the episode and/or have a screen shot when Goku said that?! :think:
ZombieVito wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2019 6:24 pm
About Ribrianne:

It really doesnt matter if she fought SS Vegeta. The fact is she couldnt beat him in base later so this proofs Vegeta was going easy with her at first. Zirlloin also got her power and couldnt hit an exahusted base Goku, at all.
The Zirlloin example is hard to figure since he got more of her skills and looks then anything else. But let’s say he got a power up too, he never used Ribrianne’s Enraged, Super or Giant forms, only her base format, which her base is hardly her best level.

It was never stated or given context or said by any characters either Vegeta or others that in Episode 102 he was holding back, so thats not truly definitive as an explanation.

It is just as plausible of Ribrianne’s decreases being cause by battle fatigue or lose of personal confidence that seem to be an important point state in episode 111. But like the holding back, their is no definitive statement it could have been those either.

So it seems the only likely reason comes down to inconsistent writing that results in a later unexplained nerfing that is out of major consistency with early episode showings of greater strength and power.
It's on the same episode. When SS2 Goku transforms into Blue to fight Kale, he says "I'm going to use a little more power". This plus their fight in E114 makes obvious Berserk Kale is nowhere near SSG. Super Saiyan 2 Kale is.

When Zirloin took Ribrianne's looks, he also took her whole base power has stated by Goku so that confirms Vegeta was not being serious as a Super Saiyan on their fight. This also is proven in E111.

Since Big Ribrianne lost to 18 then I still put her below base Goku/Vegeta since 18 is weaker than Piccolo and the latter is on par with base Gohan, who is weaker than base Goku/Vegeta.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Wed Jun 19, 2019 9:28 pm

ZombieVito wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2019 9:23 pm
Why is E100 still taken into cosideration? Goku clearly says he's holding back as Blue with her... Later on a stronger Kale failed to beat a tired SSG Goku.

It's on the same episode. When SS2 Goku transforms into Blue to fight Kale, he says "I'm going to use a little more power". This plus their fight in E114 makes obvious Berserk Kale is nowhere near SSG. Super Saiyan 2 Kale is.
That statement doesn't show nor define Goku was holding back in Blue. Even in episode 114, where a Red Goku is not at full stamina, fighting a stronger Kale, lacks any explanation as to why it's happening. I think people are just throwing reasons out there to try and make sense for TOEI's bad writing.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Wed Jun 19, 2019 10:57 pm

This “I will use a little more power” remark is Goku trying to be modest. He commonly says something like this when he uses his strongest form, as when he was about to fight Baby as a SS4.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by CJStriker_CBR » Wed Jun 19, 2019 11:16 pm

ZombieVito wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2019 9:23 pm
It's on the same episode. When SS2 Goku transforms into Blue to fight Kale, he says "I'm going to use a little more power". This plus their fight in E114 makes obvious Berserk Kale is nowhere near SSG. Super Saiyan 2 Kale is.
1st Off Thanks for Giving me the moment and episode of what you where referring too, helps allot. :)

Honestly with respects to that moment I can see abit why it might be a measuring point to how much Blue Goku Blue was using of Blue, was going for, so I can understand it abit for fans to us it as possible measuring point.

But in the end I mostly side on what Miracles stated well;
Miracles wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2019 9:28 pm
That statement doesn't show nor define Goku was holding back in Blue. Even in episode 114, where a Red Goku is not at full stamina, fighting a stronger Kale, lacks any explanation as to why it's happening. I think people are just throwing reasons out there to try and make sense for TOEI's bad writing.
It is a Vague Statement with most of the Points I would state about it and questionable writing already being stated by Miracles. But even more, that "I will use a little more power" Statement even taken at face value ~~~ It was clearly shown in that fight it was not even close to enough in stopping Rage Kale and the events that came about from it. So it could be said he needed to put alittle more Blue into it. :think:

ZombieVito wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2019 9:23 pm
When Zirloin took Ribrianne's looks, he also took her whole base power has stated by Goku so that confirms Vegeta was not being serious as a Super Saiyan on their fight. This also is proven in E111.

Since Big Ribrianne lost to 18 then I still put her below base Goku/Vegeta since 18 is weaker than Piccolo and the latter is on par with base Gohan, who is weaker than base Goku/Vegeta.
The Zirloin points comes down to similar as the Kale points earlier.

I 1st of all with Respects to it can see and have seen used as a measuring stick and in-part can see abit why. But then even more so while it is stated he Gained her "Power" it is not clearly Definitive as to Her Level of Power or Just her Skills alone. But moreso, combine that with it being stated just earlier that at Zirloin's Ribrianne Power Manifestation of her Powers, it was stated as NEW Powers being Born as well?! :wtf: So, that Means it Fully Ribrianne's "Powers" or is Part of Zirlion's Manifesting Power of Love combined with part of her Powers, it gets rather messy and I can't put my Finger on it.

It is Still an GREAT Moment, one of My Favorites in all of the ToP, Super and Even All DB as a Whole! While it is Good fight and a Homage to Instilling the Values of Your Heroes into Yourself and that YOU can Be Your Heroes, it is hardly to say it is a 100% Measuring Point to compare to Ribrianne. I can see somewhat why fans look at it, but as a 100% Mirror~to~Mirror Comparison to Ribrianne's powers it is messy to say in the least.

With the Giant Form of Ribrianne we can't forget that Android 18 Also got, even just for that Moment, a Major Boast in Power that was base on love that even was stated by Ribrianne as a Form of Love and Power that gave 18 Greater Strength For that Fight and Surprised Ribrianne greatly. 18 was not at the Same Level she was at the start of the ToP clearly, but how Much Power it Gave her, How High we can Measure it and what long-term effects on her overall level going forward from their it will have on 18 is sadly Very Unclear, Amazing Yes, but unclear sadly.

Also the Fight with Giant Ribrianne was a Tag Team in the End Against Ribrianne with Android 17 doing Major Blocking while 18 got more time to her strength into her Big Final Attack. So it was not just 18 with her Power up alone that beat Giant Ribrianne, it was also 17 with Major Defending assistance. That effected the outcome of the fight greatly the Tag Teaming Up.

Also, in Story theory can be given to Ribrianne episode 117 that it showed sh was showing clear signs of Fatigue and Battle Damage in, mostly showen when she de-powered back to Human Brianne and we can see those effects on her. It it again hard to say how much this effected her or if the Power Love boast from her Friends healed her all the way, but it is a factor I at times consider to good degree with the Fight. :idea:
--- ADMIN NOTE: THIS SIGNATURE IS FAR TOO LONG. PLEASE REDUCE IN SIZE. ---

Let it Bloom. Let it Ring. The Song of Love & Victory!”
~~ Brianne De Chateau ~ Episode 102, of Dragon Ball Super!
:clap:

Brianne De Chateau~~Ribrianne!~~
My #1 Favorite in All of Dragon Ball!
:thumbup:

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Wed Jun 19, 2019 11:54 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2019 1:44 pm
So where would everyone put the anime verison of Infinite Zamasu? The one that merged with the very fabric of the cosmos?
Like he was before being cut in half. Aside his hax, there is nothing implying any kind of boost, actually he couldn't one-shot the tired saiyans when he burnt down Earth which was odd. But it doesn't matter, stronger opponents wouldn't be able to defeat him anyway.
DBS proved that you can beat stronger opponents through other merits, and Infinite Zamasu, along 17, Hit and Moro are good examples.



About Kale, didn't Tenshinhan confirmed that Controlled LSS Kale was stronger than Berserk Kale?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Zamasu55 » Thu Jun 20, 2019 4:26 am

SupremeKai25 wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2019 2:06 pm
omegacwa wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2019 2:04 pm
SupremeKai25 wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2019 1:44 pm
So where would everyone put the anime verison of Infinite Zamasu? The one that merged with the very fabric of the cosmos?
Unquantifiable. There is no way to gauge it other than "Can be destroyed by Zeno" "Can't be destroyed by Mortals (Not confirmed)".
I thought as much. Some people put him below ep.109 Jiren because Shin said that Jiren was the strongest enemy they've ever faced, but imho that's stupid.
It's a fact.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ankokudaishogun » Thu Jun 20, 2019 4:33 am

Koitsukai wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2019 11:54 pm
About Kale, didn't Tenshinhan confirmed that Controlled LSS Kale was stronger than Berserk Kale?
Yes, SS2 Kale is supposed to be even stronger than Berserker Kale.
Berserker Kale was probably about SS3-strong, with SS2 Kale circa SSGod-strong

Specifically, Berserker Kale was "Stronger than SS2 Goku" by an unspecified degree.
Enough that, along her keeping getting stronger, had Goku to prefer going Blue so to not risk and waste stamina with weaker forms, while Blue let him HoldingBack™ as necessary while leaving open the possibility of powering up on the spot-
Goku evidently underestimated Berserker Kale's power with his Kamehameha, which implies she was quite stronger than simple SS3(as it's unlikely he would have turned Blue to be serious otherwise in first place)

SS2 Kale is weaker than God Goku, though not by too much: Goku clean outmatched her, but didn't annihilate her.
And a sensible part of his superiority was due skill and not just raw power.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by SupremeKai25 » Thu Jun 20, 2019 5:40 am

Koitsukai wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2019 11:54 pm
SupremeKai25 wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2019 1:44 pm
So where would everyone put the anime verison of Infinite Zamasu? The one that merged with the very fabric of the cosmos?
Like he was before being cut in half. Aside his hax, there is nothing implying any kind of boost, actually he couldn't one-shot the tired saiyans when he burnt down Earth which was odd. But it doesn't matter, stronger opponents wouldn't be able to defeat him anyway.
DBS proved that you can beat stronger opponents through other merits, and Infinite Zamasu, along 17, Hit and Moro are good examples.



About Kale, didn't Tenshinhan confirmed that Controlled LSS Kale was stronger than Berserk Kale?
He did oneshot them, they were knocked unconcious instantly. If you oneshot someone it doesn't mean that they have to die.
"Behold this ultimate vessel. The sword and shield made one. Its strength knows no limits. The power coursing through me is exceptional, glorious, absolute. Stare in awe, I AM JUSTICE INCARNATE!!!"

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Thu Jun 20, 2019 8:31 am

Koitsukai wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2019 11:54 pm
About Kale, didn't Tenshinhan confirmed that Controlled LSS Kale was stronger than Berserk Kale?
Yes. But some episodes before Berserker was stronger than SSBlue. Kale’s new form was overpowered by SSGod.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ankokudaishogun » Thu Jun 20, 2019 8:38 am

Hugo Boss wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 8:31 am
Koitsukai wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2019 11:54 pm
About Kale, didn't Tenshinhan confirmed that Controlled LSS Kale was stronger than Berserk Kale?
Yes. But some episodes before Berserker was stronger than SSBlue. Kale’s new form was overpowered by SSGod.
Because it's trademarked Perfect Ki Control(R), Goku generally uses Blue for everything beyond SS2, unless he's saving stamina

Berserker Kale was likely about SS3

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Thu Jun 20, 2019 9:09 am

ankokudaishogun wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 8:38 am
Hugo Boss wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 8:31 am
Koitsukai wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2019 11:54 pm
About Kale, didn't Tenshinhan confirmed that Controlled LSS Kale was stronger than Berserk Kale?
Yes. But some episodes before Berserker was stronger than SSBlue. Kale’s new form was overpowered by SSGod.
Because it's trademarked Perfect Ki Control(R), Goku generally uses Blue for everything beyond SS2, unless he's saving stamina

Berserker Kale was likely about SS3
I’m not sure what you are talking about. Goku could have just used SSGod if he wanted to save stamina. Jiren wouldn’t have intervened if Kale wasn’t stronger than SSBlue or Top.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by omegacwa » Thu Jun 20, 2019 11:00 am

ZombieVito wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2019 6:24 pm
About Boo:

Do people realize that Boo is SS2 tier but from the Boo arc right? That level of power doesn't even reach current base Goku, at all. This is why after training he can now fight on par with base Goku.


About 17:

The guy forced Goku to use a suppressed Blue form so he at minimum is stronger than SSG. No way around that.
Where is this coming from? There is no way and no proof that I'm aware of that ToP Base Goku > SSJ2 Goku in the Buu arc.

Kefla, who I would say is in the ballpark of Buu arc Vegetto required UI to defeat. From what you are saying, Base Goku should have been able to fight Kefla, and maybe even defeat her at SSJ1.

You are also saying Base Goku in the ToP could easily defeat Super Buu.

Also 17... No. He is not Super Saiyan God Level. Goku basically never uses anything outside of SSJ1 and Blue, same with Vegeta. Call it bad writing if you want but they basically never use SSJ2 or 3 or God ever anymore. 17 could be SSJ2/3 Level and Goku would use Blue because it's the new transformation and the writers don't care about lower forms. Unless there is specific dialogue that states that 17 is as strong as SSJG I don't believe it.

I apologize if I'm coming off aggressive. I just don't see the proof of these ludicrous power levels.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Thu Jun 20, 2019 11:11 am

17 and Gohan being stronger than SSGod is a given, because they can fight Top and SSBlue for a while.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by omegacwa » Thu Jun 20, 2019 11:26 am

Hugo Boss wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 11:11 am
17 and Gohan being stronger than SSGod is a given, because they can fight Top and SSBlue for a while.
So 17 and Gohan could put up a fight against Beerus? Strength =/= Fighting Skill. Maybe I'm forgetting things but I don't recall 17 or Gohan going one on one with Toppo in a blow for blow battle.

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