Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Miracles
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Mon Jan 06, 2020 8:21 pm

Koitsukai wrote:
Mon Jan 06, 2020 7:41 pm
Miracles wrote:
Mon Jan 06, 2020 5:58 pm
Zamasu was stated to have no immortality. That's a fact, however, you headcanon and say he does. You made the claim, you have to prove that the story confirms your feelings with narration confirming Zamas REASONS for surviving Trunks attack.
No, you are not correct because I never made the claim, the show did when they showed Zamasu wishing immortality and of course when they showed many times he could not be killed due to that FACT.
So, now YOU have to prove Zamasu was not immortal anymore. Statements do not count, not only because predate the event that disproves them, but because weren't from an authority like Toriyama or even Zamasu himself, they were from other characters, and like many before them and many after, they were inaccurate and do not reflect the opinions of the author, only theirs about a particular fusion they knew nothing about. Believing a certain statement is the unquestionable truth is bias, and when later reality proves them wrong it becomes headcanon.

And a statement is not a fact, please stop repeating that because is not accurate. Vegeta stated he was the legendary SS in Namek, that did not make it a fact. Also, they couldn't kill Zamasu, so the statement was never corroborated until Zeno pulled the plug. You are arguing with Toriyama here, man, come on. I have an actual flashback and a hell of a survival feat, you have a troubled kaioshin chiming in on a subject he has never witnessed before.

Miracles wrote:
Mon Jan 06, 2020 5:58 pm
Just randomly saying "BU BU HE CAME BACK" doesn't mean it is because of immortality when the story already stated he has a mortal now which makes him lose immortality.
I invite you then, to explain to us, WITHOUT HEADCANON, just facts, how Zamasu survived Trunks's final attack that in no way a non-immortal character could survive and come back with at least the same force.
Why would I explain away something the story didn't give? I'm not going to do what you guys are doing and insert headcanon in narration.You said it was due to immortality when it was stated that Zamasu was no longer immortal cause he had a mortal merged with him, making him unstable. He was only immortal before he merged but when he merged with a mortal, narration changed and never deviated from that plot.
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Koitsukai
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Mon Jan 06, 2020 10:26 pm

Hugo Boss wrote:
Mon Jan 06, 2020 7:59 pm
Did he survive though? Sounds like he came back as the Kaioshins do when they die before their lifespan expires.
If Toriyama's outlier mean anything then yes, in the manga Zamasu got up and multiplied himself, still immortal which is even talked about.
The difference with the manga is Gowasu's statement and that he becomes infinite instead of an army. Not enough evidence for me to believe it diverges that much to re-write Toriyama's vision.

About the kaioshin, those killed by Buu never came back, Shin never sees them ever again, and in Trunks's timeline Shin does not come back after dying vs Dabura. Gowasu either, Black kills him and he is gone, so maybe violent deaths, like this one, negate the comeback.
Miracles wrote:
Mon Jan 06, 2020 8:21 pm
Why would I explain away something the story didn't give? I'm not going to do what you guys are doing and insert headcanon in narration.You said it was due to immortality when it was stated that Zamasu was no longer immortal cause he had a mortal merged with him, making him unstable. He was only immortal before he merged but when he merged with a mortal, narration changed and never deviated from that plot.
You can't explain it, thought so. And we'll leave it at that, because we are going nowhere, I can't keep this up when episode 67 is being ignored.

Zamasu could not be killed by non-Zeno characters, I'll ask you to respond to this message ONLY if you can actually disprove that.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Mon Jan 06, 2020 10:36 pm

Koitsukai wrote:
Mon Jan 06, 2020 10:26 pm
You can't explain it, thought so. And we'll leave it at that, because we are going nowhere, I can't keep this up when episode 67 is being ignored.

Zamasu could not be killed by non-Zeno characters, I'll ask you to respond to this message ONLY if you can actually disprove that.
Everything you just posted is headcanon, again. The story already stated Zamas was no longer immortal after fusing. It didn't say otherwise in ep 67 or 66. Yet you keeps saying he was. You are out of line with the facts, again. This is a gimmick I refuse to follow.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Mon Jan 06, 2020 11:39 pm

Gowasu never said he lost his immortality. That's just false.

Besides why does he even regenerate during the episode if he wasn't still immortal? Neither Saiyans or Kaioshins can do it yet Zamasu heals Vegetto and Futute Trunks attacks multiple times in the episode.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Tue Jan 07, 2020 12:49 am

I didn't state Gowasu was the one who said he is no longer immortal.
I stated the narration had Vegetto conclude Zamas is no longer immortal based off Gowasu's reasons. This is truth.

The story didn't give an answer why Zamasu was able to come back from Trunks attack.
However, it was already established that he was no longer immortal. So that isn't the reason.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Tue Jan 07, 2020 1:19 am

Vegetto was simply wrong.

After Future Trunks slices Zamasu on the chest and the latter regenerates, he says he's still immortal.

So he says he's immortal, regenerates injuries when both of his races don't have the ability and survives getting his skull cut in half.

So... We will have to agree to disagree here.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Tue Jan 07, 2020 1:40 am

Broly-like headcanon cannot be contended after all, it takes you places like arguing the actual events, so I'll pass.

Anyway, what was your take on this, ZombieVito?
ZombieVito wrote:
Fri Jan 03, 2020 11:51 pm
So if Buuhan is a 100, what number would you give these fighters?

Base Goku [RoF arc]: 200
Base Goku [U6 arc]: 200
Base Goku [ToP arc]: 300

FF Freeza [RoF arc]: 180

Frost [U6 arc]: 250
Frost [ToP arc]: 300

Piccolo [U6 arc]: 80
Piccolo [ToP arc]: 90

Ribrianne: pass
Ribrianne [Big form]: pass

Kahseral: pass
Bergamo: pass
Slim Boo: 300
Base Kale: 80
Base Caulifla: 90

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by SupremeKai25 » Tue Jan 07, 2020 2:17 am

Miracles wrote:
Mon Jan 06, 2020 5:58 pm
Here is the legit image of Vegetto.
Since when did the dub become non-canon?
BTW, that other image about Zamasu surviving, it is not concerning Trunks attack.
You aren't in line with the story.
I literally explained to you what the link is.

How did Zamasu survive?

Gowasu IN EPISODE 67 -------> Thanks to the Dragon's power.

What was the Dragon's power (in case that wasn't obvious already but I guess you can't take anything for granted)?

Cue the Zamasu image where he explains what power he got from the Dragon.
Zamasu was stated to have no immortality. That's a fact, however, you headcanon and say he does. You made the claim, you have to prove that the story confirms your feelings with narration confirming Zamas REASONS for surviving Trunks attack. Just randomly saying "BU BU HE CAME BACK" doesn't mean it is because of immortality when the story already stated he has a mortal now which makes him lose immortality.
Nope, it was never said he didn't have immortality anymore. It was said he no longer had a 100% immortal body anymore. Nobody ever wondered what the status of his soul was in ep. 66, except Gowasu in the sub who mentioned it once when he transformed and alluded that his soul was indeed still immortal and was out of balance with his half-mortal body. And anyway, has people have told you again and again, just because Vegito said something doesn't mean the "narration" (what does this term even refer to?!) agrees with him, because Vegit is not an omniscient being and characters in a story can indeed be wrong. Whis in that same arc was super wrong about Black's identity, he thought he was a copy of Goku when in reality he was Zamasu in Goku's body. Beerus was also wrong, he thought that erasing Zamasu would also erase Black, but as Black himself said, "Good ol' Beerus doesn't know the power of the Time Ring". So again YES, characters can be wrong, even supreme deities like Angels and Destroyers, so of course Vegito and mortals can also be wrong.

I feel like I'm being trolled so I'm done with this "debate" too.
My form is justice. And my form is the world. Worship me. Give praise unto me. Me, the beautiful, the sublime... Me, the invincible, the almighty and divine... All hail Zamasu.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Zarely » Tue Jan 07, 2020 2:41 am

So do some people think

Blue Gogeta > Broly >= Beerus > Jiren > Blue Vegito > Fused Zamasu

Is more accurate? I don't think that would make much sense really.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by p-hyvo » Tue Jan 07, 2020 2:54 am

Zarely wrote:
Tue Jan 07, 2020 2:41 am
So do some people think

Blue Gogeta > Broly >= Beerus > Jiren > Blue Vegito > Fused Zamasu

Is more accurate? I don't think that would make much sense really.
Broly>>>jiren>>beerus

Goku only challenged ssj Broly, Gogeta took ssjfp Broly on.
That even more logic jf you ask me, because ssj Broly was stated to be stronger than Jiren in the Moment he faced Goku, Vegeta and 27 together in the Nobel
Ssjfp Broly>>>>>sfp jiren>>fp jiren>>ssj broly>=beerus>jiren vs Goku, Vegeta and 17>>jiren vs Goku and vegeta>Vegevo rage>God toppo>>ssbkk20 goku
I feel like if i Say here where do i get numerically with dbgt/dbs Power levels, someone will get a stroke.
Better to not talk about dragon ball heroes ones, i swear
Lol

Also i don't wanna be rude, even if i know i can seem It sometimes. I'm Just too harsh in some occasions, that's It. I can't control that. Is not that i want to be and asshole or mean to you, i Simply don't know how to Say what i think i other ways .Just clarifying

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Tue Jan 07, 2020 3:21 am

Koitsukai wrote:
Tue Jan 07, 2020 1:40 am
Broly-like headcanon cannot be contended after all, it takes you places like arguing the actual events, so I'll pass.

Anyway, what was your take on this, ZombieVito?
ZombieVito wrote:
Fri Jan 03, 2020 11:51 pm
So if Buuhan is a 100, what number would you give these fighters?

Base Goku [RoF arc]: 200
Base Goku [U6 arc]: 200
Base Goku [ToP arc]: 300

FF Freeza [RoF arc]: 180

Frost [U6 arc]: 250
Frost [ToP arc]: 300

Piccolo [U6 arc]: 80
Piccolo [ToP arc]: 90

Ribrianne: pass
Ribrianne [Big form]: pass

Kahseral: pass
Bergamo: pass
Slim Boo: 300
Base Kale: 80
Base Caulifla: 90
I have some issues with this lol. :P

1) Why is Goku as strong in the U6 arc than RoF? He should be stronger by a little at least.
2) Frost can't be that close to the base Saiyans. Vegeta turned SS to beat an exhausted Frost.
3) Piccolo can't be that high in the U6 arc since before the ToP he was on the same tier as SS2 Gohan and the latter was exactly as strong as his Boo arc self.
4) Why the big gap between Caulifla and Goku. They had a pretty even fight in the ToP. She's at least on the same tier as him.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Zarely » Tue Jan 07, 2020 3:30 am

p-hyvo wrote:
Tue Jan 07, 2020 2:54 am
Broly>>>jiren>>beerus
Goku said Broly was only probably stronger than Beerus meaning he still might not be. There can't be much between them at all.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by p-hyvo » Tue Jan 07, 2020 3:58 am

Zarely wrote:
Tue Jan 07, 2020 3:30 am
p-hyvo wrote:
Tue Jan 07, 2020 2:54 am
Broly>>>jiren>>beerus
Goku said Broly was only probably stronger than Beerus meaning he still might not be. There can't be much between them at all.
Still Goku considered much probably the Broly he faced, so he was talking about ssj Broly , not ssjfp
I feel like if i Say here where do i get numerically with dbgt/dbs Power levels, someone will get a stroke.
Better to not talk about dragon ball heroes ones, i swear
Lol

Also i don't wanna be rude, even if i know i can seem It sometimes. I'm Just too harsh in some occasions, that's It. I can't control that. Is not that i want to be and asshole or mean to you, i Simply don't know how to Say what i think i other ways .Just clarifying

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Omgzord » Tue Jan 07, 2020 8:01 am

Zarely wrote:
Tue Jan 07, 2020 2:41 am
So do some people think

Blue Gogeta > Broly >= Beerus > Jiren > Blue Vegito > Fused Zamasu

Is more accurate? I don't think that would make much sense really.
How Jiren compares to Beerus is a big mystery. It's implied that Jiren may be stronger but Goku never made such claim yet he thought Broly was stronger than Beerus.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Omgzord » Tue Jan 07, 2020 8:04 am

Zarely wrote:
Tue Jan 07, 2020 3:30 am
p-hyvo wrote:
Tue Jan 07, 2020 2:54 am
Broly>>>jiren>>beerus
Goku said Broly was only probably stronger than Beerus meaning he still might not be. There can't be much between them at all.
Well, it's worth mentioning that Goku has a really high opinion of Beerus so him mentioning that Broly is likely stronger than Beerus says a lot tbh.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by p-hyvo » Tue Jan 07, 2020 9:12 am

Omgzord wrote:
Tue Jan 07, 2020 8:04 am
Zarely wrote:
Tue Jan 07, 2020 3:30 am
p-hyvo wrote:
Tue Jan 07, 2020 2:54 am
Broly>>>jiren>>beerus
Goku said Broly was only probably stronger than Beerus meaning he still might not be. There can't be much between them at all.
Well, it's worth mentioning that Goku has a really high opinion of Beerus so him
mentioning that Broly is likely stronger than Beerus says a lot tbh.
Exactly. Goku doesnt know how strong beerus Is at all. He Just knows that beerus Is really strong, and Broly Is too. That was Just a comparison made quite empirically we can Say, with no real bases or knoeledges by gokus side on beerus and his strenght. Goku cant talk about beeruses strenght being dire about it
I feel like if i Say here where do i get numerically with dbgt/dbs Power levels, someone will get a stroke.
Better to not talk about dragon ball heroes ones, i swear
Lol

Also i don't wanna be rude, even if i know i can seem It sometimes. I'm Just too harsh in some occasions, that's It. I can't control that. Is not that i want to be and asshole or mean to you, i Simply don't know how to Say what i think i other ways .Just clarifying

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Tue Jan 07, 2020 1:12 pm

ZombieVito wrote:
Tue Jan 07, 2020 3:21 am

I have some issues with this lol. :P

1) Why is Goku as strong in the U6 arc than RoF? He should be stronger by a little at least.
2) Frost can't be that close to the base Saiyans. Vegeta turned SS to beat an exhausted Frost.
3) Piccolo can't be that high in the U6 arc since before the ToP he was on the same tier as SS2 Gohan and the latter was exactly as strong as his Boo arc self.
4) Why the big gap between Caulifla and Goku. They had a pretty even fight in the ToP. She's at least on the same tier as him.
I meant your numbers about it lol
I tried to lowball everything to make the retcons work better

1) because Goku after RoF started working on SSBKK, that is training his strongest form to withstand kaioken, so I don't think his base should benefit much from it, said training should've happened with Goku as SSB.

2) I disagree here, Assault form Frost gave Base Goku much more trouble than FF Freeza, although his final form wasn't that much stronger than his assault form, it should be enough to defeat base Goku. SS Goku was already out of his league.

3) I agree, I had no idea what number give to Piccolo, less than a 100 for sure, not that close then, so maybe 60?

4) A tired base Goku had SS2 Caulifla covered, of course not out of raw power but aided by his skills, but still a 100x boost wasn't enough for Caulifla, and he found himself in trouble after Kale jumped in. A well-rested SS2 Goku would crush SS2 Caulifla in my opinion.
Zarely wrote:
Tue Jan 07, 2020 2:41 am
So do some people think

Blue Gogeta > Broly >= Beerus > Jiren > Blue Vegito > Fused Zamasu

Is more accurate? I don't think that would make much sense really.
MUI Goku/Gogeta > Jiren > Broly > Vegito >Zamasu

Since lately on this thread statements became the ultimate authority, Whis's statement about Jiren, Belmod and Beerus 30 episodes before Jiren broke his limits, put that Jiren above most GoDs. While Broly might or might not be stronger than Beerus.

And Broly never landed a punch, his greatest feat was hitting SS Gogeta, while Jiren's greatest feat was overpowering MUI Goku. It would take a lot of headcanon to assume Super Gogeta = MUI Goku.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Lionel » Tue Jan 07, 2020 2:39 pm

You know with all this this discussion about Kaioshins, my opinion is that you would think their magical prowess would enable them to act as an alternative source of physiological healing. We know Kami was able to reconstruct Chaozu's body after it was destroyed during the battle against the Saiyans. Limbs, organs and bone material should pose no issue and it could provide some much needed utilitarianism to these magically inclined characters. Who would need Sensu beans when you could just have Shin or Piccolo materialise new flesh, muscle, bone, and organ segments in that perforation in your torso region? Stamina and energy replacement would be the beans' most valued use in that case.

I personally have Frost closer to the Super Saiyans in his final form than not. Goku obviously outmatched him but it's not like he could just casually flick Frost's efforts aside like they were nothing. I might compare the gap there to Goku in his rematch against Tao Pai Pai, maybe a bit wider as Frost was unable to land a solid hit (could certainly be wrong in this assessment here).

For me, Piccolo lingered in this odd chasm between base and Super Saiyan. When you consider how much the Super Saiyans had progressed since the Buu arc, it's not too bad of a position in relation to Z. I could see Piccolo potentially fighting certain iterations of Buu. With respect to Super and the old competitive prestige of the Namekian, though, it's really disheartening to see how far he's fallen but hey, transformations are all the rage. Who needs the Namekian Book of Legends from the anime or new avenues of training for anyone else?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by SupremeKai25 » Tue Jan 07, 2020 2:46 pm

Lionel wrote:
Tue Jan 07, 2020 2:39 pm
You know with all this this discussion about Kaioshins, my opinion is that you would think their magical prowess would enable them to act as an alternative source of physiological healing. We know Kami was able to reconstruct Chaozu's body after it was destroyed during the battle against the Saiyans. Limbs, organs and bone material should pose no issue and it could provide some much needed utilitarianism to these magically inclined characters. Who would need Sensu beans when you could just have Shin or Piccolo materialise new flesh, muscle, bone, and organ segments in that perforation in your torso region? Stamina and energy replacement would be the beans' most valued use in that case.
Well Supreme Kais are supposed to create worlds and species with their magical powers, I'm sure they can heal a few broken limbs or create new organs and all that stuff. Even Supreme Kai apprentices can do that, like Trunks in the manga.
My form is justice. And my form is the world. Worship me. Give praise unto me. Me, the beautiful, the sublime... Me, the invincible, the almighty and divine... All hail Zamasu.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Tue Jan 07, 2020 6:38 pm

Hugo Boss wrote:
Mon Jan 06, 2020 7:59 pm
Did he survive though? Sounds like he came back as the Kaioshins do when they die before their lifespan expires.
I don't think so. He would have gone to the afterlife if it was the case. He clearly didnt.

If a Kaioshin dies on the mortal world they just disappear to the afterlife like Gowasu did.

Frost is SS tier, no doubt about it. On the low end of the tier of course.

Piccolo got a BIG boost training with Ultimate Gohan. He now isnt that far off of current base Goku since he's on par with base Gohan now.

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