Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

Moderators: Kanzenshuu Staff, General Help

User avatar
Omgzord
Newbie
Posts: 45
Joined: Mon Dec 23, 2019 10:41 am

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Omgzord » Fri Jan 10, 2020 3:27 pm

Just like how Goku was supposed to be stronger than Beerus after he spammed Kaio-ken again? He doubled his power 20 TIMES for god sake was still walking fodder for Beerus and that is ignoring all the power-ups he had throughout Super.

If you apply some logic, Beerus must have used less than 0.1% of his power against SSG Goku, yet he was somehow satisfied.
IMO those anime original power-ups don't matter as long Toriyama doesn't write a script where it's stated that Goku "or any character for that matter"

Toei just likes to add mindless power-ups to keep the tension throughout every fight regardless of it flow into the story. Doflamingo was able to power struggle with Luffy for a whole damn episode with Luffy needing some friendship speech to even overpower him. In the manga tho, Luffy smashes in his face the moment his attack lands in one page.

Just my two cents.

User avatar
Koitsukai
OMG CRAZY REG
Posts: 995
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2018 5:02 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Fri Jan 10, 2020 4:02 pm

Omgzord wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 3:27 pm
Just like how Goku was supposed to be stronger than Beerus after he spammed Kaio-ken again? He doubled his power 20 TIMES for god sake was still walking fodder for Beerus and that is ignoring all the power-ups he had throughout Super.

If you apply some logic, Beerus must have used less than 0.1% of his power against SSG Goku, yet he was somehow satisfied.
IMO those anime original power-ups don't matter as long Toriyama doesn't write a script where it's stated that Goku "or any character for that matter"

Toei just likes to add mindless power-ups to keep the tension throughout every fight regardless of it flow into the story. Doflamingo was able to power struggle with Luffy for a whole damn episode with Luffy needing some friendship speech to even overpower him. In the manga tho, Luffy smashes in his face the moment his attack lands in one page.

Just my two cents.
I don't know what you mean about Goku Kaioken being stronger than Beerus, but never was Goku supposed to be stronger than Beerus just by using kaioken. Are you referring to Beerus worrying when Goku went KK vs Hit? he immediately dismissed that.

The anime power-ups matter because we are discussing anime events, although even in the manga Jiren powers up to overcome UI.

The fact remains, A's teacher said A lost to B(so they are relatable), and that C is stronger than B. Then C becomes much more stronger, therefore C is still far from A???

User avatar
Miracles
I Live Here
Posts: 2854
Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2008 10:31 am

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Fri Jan 10, 2020 4:56 pm

Omgzord wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 11:31 am
Yeah, not buying this "Jiren > Beerus" either unless the show specifically addresses it.

All Jiren has is some vague statement about being in the domain of GoDs MAYBE surpassing it.
Yet, the very same power that defeated him "Ultra Instinct" is only referred to as the "breaking power of gods" or "domain of gods"
The only thing we know for sure about Jiren is that he's stronger than Belmod and that's all.
It's nice to see unpolluted facts without the fan dialogue inserted.

Well done.
"The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God."~Psalm 14:1

User avatar
Zarely
Banned
Posts: 83
Joined: Sat Dec 21, 2019 2:29 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Zarely » Fri Jan 10, 2020 8:33 pm

ZombieVito wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 12:59 pm
Goku literally burned himself out trying to fight Jiren and the latter was fine. They were not on par at all.
That was only in the difference of how the power was handled but they did fight on par as several characters said. Jiren's suppressed power was stable unlike Gokus Ultra Instinct which tapped out quick but they still fought on par with each other.
Goku never absorbed the Genkidama though. Trunks did and that's a bigger boost.
No, Whis said that had Goku absorbed the the Spirit Bomb it wouldn't have been enough. His strength as Ultra Instinct was greater than had he absorbed the Spirit Bomb.

Meanwhile Trunks only absorbed a smaller one. Therefore making him the weaker character.

User avatar
ZombieVito
I Live Here
Posts: 4267
Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2013 12:18 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Fri Jan 10, 2020 11:26 pm

Zarely wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 8:33 pm
ZombieVito wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 12:59 pm
Goku literally burned himself out trying to fight Jiren and the latter was fine. They were not on par at all.
That was only in the difference of how the power was handled but they did fight on par as several characters said. Jiren's suppressed power was stable unlike Gokus Ultra Instinct which tapped out quick but they still fought on par with each other.
Goku never absorbed the Genkidama though. Trunks did and that's a bigger boost.
No, Whis said that had Goku absorbed the the Spirit Bomb it wouldn't have been enough. His strength as Ultra Instinct was greater than had he absorbed the Spirit Bomb.

Meanwhile Trunks only absorbed a smaller one. Therefore making him the weaker character.
No. They were not on par, you'll understand when you watch the later episodes. The only instance someone fought on par with Jiren during the entire ToP was when he fought MUI Goku.

Then this confirms Corrupted Fused Zamasu was getting weaker while he was taking damage then.

User avatar
Lionel
I'm pretty cozy, here...
Posts: 1727
Joined: Fri Dec 04, 2015 2:54 am

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Lionel » Sat Jan 11, 2020 3:20 pm

A bit different compared with the intense debate that's been going on with the current juggernauts but I wish we had more information on where the humans stood.

In the manga, the closest things we have to feats from the humans is their avoidance of a downward strike from Magetta and Tenshinhan/Roshi strenuously parrying the attacks of an amused Frost who isn't going all out. Oh, and obviously Tenshinhan's famed Shin Kikoho had absolutely no effect on this opponent. Kahseral addressed Roshi as having a pathetic power level; this after having challenged Base Goku in cooperation with members of his team.

So where do they stand in the fans' eyes? Could they take Botamo or the suppression forms of Frost from the U6 arc? Are they stronger than Freeza from the Namek arc now? It's difficult to gauge, in my opinion.

User avatar
Koitsukai
OMG CRAZY REG
Posts: 995
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2018 5:02 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Sat Jan 11, 2020 5:12 pm

Lionel wrote:
Sat Jan 11, 2020 3:20 pm
A bit different compared with the intense debate that's been going on with the current juggernauts but I wish we had more information on where the humans stood.

In the manga, the closest things we have to feats from the humans is their avoidance of a downward strike from Magetta and Tenshinhan/Roshi strenuously parrying the attacks of an amused Frost who isn't going all out. Oh, and obviously Tenshinhan's famed Shin Kikoho had absolutely no effect on this opponent. Kahseral addressed Roshi as having a pathetic power level; this after having challenged Base Goku in cooperation with members of his team.

So where do they stand in the fans' eyes? Could they take Botamo or the suppression forms of Frost from the U6 arc? Are they stronger than Freeza from the Namek arc now? It's difficult to gauge, in my opinion.
I feel they would still die against Namek Freeza, aside from Tenshinhan's Kikoho that can help him punch much above his weight. Actually if took Goku all the way to BoG to be in base a match for Namek Freeza(I think he can take Freeza but still), the humans shouldn't be even close to that.

U6 Assault Form Frost was giving Base Goku a run for his money, so probably the only Frost they could fight is him in his 1st form. And that Frost, if his Assault Form is DBS base tier, should still be incredibly strong, like early Cell saga or something.

Like you said, it is difficult to gauge because they were irrelevant for so long, being just spectators at best. I prefer to pretend the UI Roshi thing never happened.

User avatar
ZombieVito
I Live Here
Posts: 4267
Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2013 12:18 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Sat Jan 11, 2020 5:59 pm

Well, we do know Kuririn is weaker than base ToP Gohan before training with Piccolo so they are still far off from Namek FF Freeza.

Having said that, I can see the 3 of them beating him with teamwork.

User avatar
Lionel
I'm pretty cozy, here...
Posts: 1727
Joined: Fri Dec 04, 2015 2:54 am

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Lionel » Sat Jan 11, 2020 6:18 pm

Koitsukai wrote:
Sat Jan 11, 2020 5:12 pm
Lionel wrote:
Sat Jan 11, 2020 3:20 pm
A bit different compared with the intense debate that's been going on with the current juggernauts but I wish we had more information on where the humans stood.

In the manga, the closest things we have to feats from the humans is their avoidance of a downward strike from Magetta and Tenshinhan/Roshi strenuously parrying the attacks of an amused Frost who isn't going all out. Oh, and obviously Tenshinhan's famed Shin Kikoho had absolutely no effect on this opponent. Kahseral addressed Roshi as having a pathetic power level; this after having challenged Base Goku in cooperation with members of his team.

So where do they stand in the fans' eyes? Could they take Botamo or the suppression forms of Frost from the U6 arc? Are they stronger than Freeza from the Namek arc now? It's difficult to gauge, in my opinion.
I feel they would still die against Namek Freeza, aside from Tenshinhan's Kikoho that can help him punch much above his weight. Actually if took Goku all the way to BoG to be in base a match for Namek Freeza(I think he can take Freeza but still), the humans shouldn't be even close to that.

U6 Assault Form Frost was giving Base Goku a run for his money, so probably the only Frost they could fight is him in his 1st form. And that Frost, if his Assault Form is DBS base tier, should still be incredibly strong, like early Cell saga or something.

Like you said, it is difficult to gauge because they were irrelevant for so long, being just spectators at best. I prefer to pretend the UI Roshi thing never happened.
Irrelevant, sadly, but in a way more interesting than some characters, in my opinion, because they're even less cemented than the likes of Goku Black or Jiren. It obviously has to do with so little content having been offered to them, though.

My thoughts are Krillin and Tenshinhan would potentially have the tools necessary to make some relatively decent power gains. Krillin has his biologically enhanced cybernetic wife to spar with while Tenshinhan seems to be at ease training up in the mountains. Similar to Piccolo training where the palace of Kami's is, from a biological standpoint, Tenshinhan would be exposed to the difficulties of upper elevation atmosphere.

Krillin did look to be defensively holding his ground somewhat against Yunba but all we know of him is that he easily took out the Zoon-seijen. Pui-Pui was likely the strongest of that species -- outfitted with the Majinisation power-up, I imagine -- and he still got easily taken out by Base Vegeta from the Buu arc.

User avatar
Zarely
Banned
Posts: 83
Joined: Sat Dec 21, 2019 2:29 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Zarely » Sat Jan 11, 2020 7:02 pm

ZombieVito wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 11:26 pm
No. They were not on par, you'll understand when you watch the later episodes. The only instance someone fought on par with Jiren during the entire ToP was when he fought MUI Goku.
They fought on par for the level that Jiren was using at the time which was an amount greater than Fused Zamasu. If Ultra Instinct Omen Goku could match that Jiren then he's stronger than Fused Zamasu.
Then this confirms Corrupted Fused Zamasu was getting weaker while he was taking damage then.
No it doesn't, that's an assumption. Fused Zamasu was always weaker than Ultra Instinct Omen Goku.

User avatar
ZombieVito
I Live Here
Posts: 4267
Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2013 12:18 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Sat Jan 11, 2020 9:50 pm

Zarely wrote:
Sat Jan 11, 2020 7:02 pm
ZombieVito wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 11:26 pm
No. They were not on par, you'll understand when you watch the later episodes. The only instance someone fought on par with Jiren during the entire ToP was when he fought MUI Goku.
They fought on par for the level that Jiren was using at the time which was an amount greater than Fused Zamasu. If Ultra Instinct Omen Goku could match that Jiren then he's stronger than Fused Zamasu.
Then this confirms Corrupted Fused Zamasu was getting weaker while he was taking damage then.
No it doesn't, that's an assumption. Fused Zamasu was always weaker than Ultra Instinct Omen Goku.
We'll have to agree to disagree pal.

Mad Swami
Beyond-the-Beyond Newbie
Posts: 379
Joined: Sun Jan 05, 2020 6:01 am

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Mad Swami » Sat Jan 11, 2020 10:20 pm

I see everyone is talking about power levels of Humans vs Frieza and so on. Here is my too sense. Please correct me on errors it will help with my upcomming project. I do not believe any base Saiyan or human can beat Frieza. I believe in saiyans never reach hundred million in base let alone one hundred and twenty million. I think that's too much personally, and I don't see anything to support that outside Vegeta's remark about being able to beat everyone in the tournament in base. people such as Piccolo and Android 18. I think Vegeta is blowing it way out of proportion and I think he was referring to every other participant like Mighty Mask. I think they stay in the 10 millions during the Buu saga. As for humans I think Tien is low millions so no he does not stand a great chance against Frieza and the other humans are weaker than him so yeah. Those are my thoughts.

BagetaSama
Newbie
Posts: 34
Joined: Tue Jan 07, 2020 4:32 am

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by BagetaSama » Sun Jan 12, 2020 9:16 pm

Mad Swami wrote:
Sat Jan 11, 2020 10:20 pm
I see everyone is talking about power levels of Humans vs Frieza and so on. Here is my too sense. Please correct me on errors it will help with my upcomming project. I do not believe any base Saiyan or human can beat Frieza. I believe in saiyans never reach hundred million in base let alone one hundred and twenty million. I think that's too much personally, and I don't see anything to support that outside Vegeta's remark about being able to beat everyone in the tournament in base. people such as Piccolo and Android 18. I think Vegeta is blowing it way out of proportion and I think he was referring to every other participant like Mighty Mask. I think they stay in the 10 millions during the Buu saga. As for humans I think Tien is low millions so no he does not stand a great chance against Frieza and the other humans are weaker than him so yeah. Those are my thoughts.
The Base Saiyans can't even beat Namek Freeza in Super?

Mad Swami
Beyond-the-Beyond Newbie
Posts: 379
Joined: Sun Jan 05, 2020 6:01 am

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Mad Swami » Sun Jan 12, 2020 9:25 pm

BagetaSama wrote:
Sun Jan 12, 2020 9:16 pm
Mad Swami wrote:
Sat Jan 11, 2020 10:20 pm
I see everyone is talking about power levels of Humans vs Frieza and so on. Here is my too sense. Please correct me on errors it will help with my upcomming project. I do not believe any base Saiyan or human can beat Frieza. I believe in saiyans never reach hundred million in base let alone one hundred and twenty million. I think that's too much personally, and I don't see anything to support that outside Vegeta's remark about being able to beat everyone in the tournament in base. people such as Piccolo and Android 18. I think Vegeta is blowing it way out of proportion and I think he was referring to every other participant like Mighty Mask. I think they stay in the 10 millions during the Buu saga. As for humans I think Tien is low millions so no he does not stand a great chance against Frieza and the other humans are weaker than him so yeah. Those are my thoughts.
The Base Saiyans can't even beat Namek Freeza in Super?
Well in Super they slaughter no difficulty but in Z never in my opinion. should have clarified my bad

User avatar
Zarely
Banned
Posts: 83
Joined: Sat Dec 21, 2019 2:29 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Zarely » Sun Jan 12, 2020 10:05 pm

How does Ultimate Gohan and Android 17 stack up compared to everyone now?

Neither are as strong as the current Super Saiyan Blue Goku and Gohan is stronger than Android 17 but after that it's all pretty vague.

Like is Gohan stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Goku? Legendary Super Saiyan Kale? Super Saiyan God Goku? Base Kefla? Golden Frieza from the Resurrection F movie? Super Saiyan Rose Goku Black?

Is there any other means of comparison? I recall he was sort of on the level of those Namekians but I don't know what they compare to either.

User avatar
Koitsukai
OMG CRAZY REG
Posts: 995
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2018 5:02 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Sun Jan 12, 2020 11:56 pm

To me it goes:
Blue people, Freeza, Black, Toppo

Gohan
17(somewhere here goes Hit)

God, Base Kefla (God without the fatigue should compare at least)

Kale
SS3

User avatar
ZombieVito
I Live Here
Posts: 4267
Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2013 12:18 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Mon Jan 13, 2020 12:22 am

The narrator said Gohan rivaled Blue Goku so that puts him anywhere between 80-100% of Goku.

Me personally, I put him at 80 since him and 17 failed to do anything to Toppo.

User avatar
p-hyvo
OMG CRAZY REG
Posts: 828
Joined: Wed Jul 12, 2017 10:56 am
Location: Italy
Contact:

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by p-hyvo » Mon Jan 13, 2020 1:47 am

Zarely wrote:
Sun Jan 12, 2020 10:05 pm
How does Ultimate Gohan and Android 17 stack up compared to everyone now?

Neither are as strong as the current Super Saiyan Blue Goku and Gohan is stronger than Android 17 but after that it's all pretty vague.

Like is Gohan stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Goku? Legendary Super Saiyan Kale? Super Saiyan God Goku? Base Kefla? Golden Frieza from the Resurrection F movie? Super Saiyan Rose Goku Black?

Is there any other means of comparison? I recall he was sort of on the level of those Namekians but I don't know what they compare to either.
Anime : ssb =Golden freezer>17>Gohan
17 shown ti be stronger than Gohan in their fight with toppo, where 17 was carrying
Manga : ssbfp=Golden>Gohan>17
Gohan Is said to be the strongest on earth without Goku and aroud
Last edited by p-hyvo on Mon Jan 13, 2020 1:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
I feel like if i Say here where do i get numerically with dbgt/dbs Power levels, someone will get a stroke.
Better to not talk about dragon ball heroes ones, i swear
Lol

Also i don't wanna be rude, even if i know i can seem It sometimes. I'm Just too harsh in some occasions, that's It. I can't control that. Is not that i want to be and asshole or mean to you, i Simply don't know how to Say what i think i other ways .Just clarifying

User avatar
p-hyvo
OMG CRAZY REG
Posts: 828
Joined: Wed Jul 12, 2017 10:56 am
Location: Italy
Contact:

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by p-hyvo » Mon Jan 13, 2020 1:49 am

Mad Swami wrote:
Sun Jan 12, 2020 9:25 pm
BagetaSama wrote:
Sun Jan 12, 2020 9:16 pm
Mad Swami wrote:
Sat Jan 11, 2020 10:20 pm
I see everyone is talking about power levels of Humans vs Frieza and so on. Here is my too sense. Please correct me on errors it will help with my upcomming project. I do not believe any base Saiyan or human can beat Frieza. I believe in saiyans never reach hundred million in base let alone one hundred and twenty million. I think that's too much personally, and I don't see anything to support that outside Vegeta's remark about being able to beat everyone in the tournament in base. people such as Piccolo and Android 18. I think Vegeta is blowing it way out of proportion and I think he was referring to every other participant like Mighty Mask. I think they stay in the 10 millions during the Buu saga. As for humans I think Tien is low millions so no he does not stand a great chance against Frieza and the other humans are weaker than him so yeah. Those are my thoughts.
The Base Saiyans can't even beat Namek Freeza in Super?
Well in Super they slaughter no difficulty but in Z never in my opinion. should have clarified my bad
The would even in buu saga, since base Goten and trunks could keep up with 18 in a fight in wich 18 had no reason to suprpess her power
I feel like if i Say here where do i get numerically with dbgt/dbs Power levels, someone will get a stroke.
Better to not talk about dragon ball heroes ones, i swear
Lol

Also i don't wanna be rude, even if i know i can seem It sometimes. I'm Just too harsh in some occasions, that's It. I can't control that. Is not that i want to be and asshole or mean to you, i Simply don't know how to Say what i think i other ways .Just clarifying

User avatar
Lionel
I'm pretty cozy, here...
Posts: 1727
Joined: Fri Dec 04, 2015 2:54 am

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Lionel » Mon Jan 13, 2020 2:54 am

p-hyvo wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 1:49 am
Mad Swami wrote:
Sun Jan 12, 2020 9:25 pm
BagetaSama wrote:
Sun Jan 12, 2020 9:16 pm

The Base Saiyans can't even beat Namek Freeza in Super?
Well in Super they slaughter no difficulty but in Z never in my opinion. should have clarified my bad
The would even in buu saga, since base Goten and trunks could keep up with 18 in a fight in wich 18 had no reason to suprpess her power
We know Krillin insisted that she restrain herself lest someone get killed during the competition as he was heading off with everyone else to Babidi's. At first Mighty Mask was considered an anomaly, but still human from #18's perspective. She was able to avoid a projectile from their Super Saiyan states, to boot. If the gap was so small between their untransformed states and this cyborg why bother charging an attack at all? They could easily do to her what Goku and Krillin used to do to the competitors in the preliminary matches in DB classic, burdensome costume or not.

I think Goku could almost certainly bring down Freeza using the Kaioken in the Buu arc. The other unfused Saiyans lack that ability.

Post Reply