Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Thu Feb 13, 2020 8:34 pm

Koitsukai wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 6:10 pm
Miracles wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 6:03 pm
That was right AFTER Hit boosted himself through improvement.
Goku confirms that Hit's strength got stronger from that too. That's the facts of the context.
Goku is talking about the improved technique, his raw power remains the same, Hit stated enough, Vados, Whis and Piccolo backed him up.

I've said my peace about this and so has the cast.
Yeah, I honestly don’t understand how exactly some people read Goku’s line as Hit’s battle power increasing, since that’s totally the opposite of what Hit just said. :?

Anyway, I think it’s pointless to debate Beerus or Moro’s current level without reading their story to end.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Fri Feb 14, 2020 8:12 pm

People really don't know what tanking is huh?

Hit as always been weaker than a SSB in raw power.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Wed Feb 19, 2020 2:38 pm

A lil’ spoiler about the next chibi stickers’s set.


If anyone had any doubt that 9,999 sticker was about the combined power of Broli and Gogeta, this one helps to clarify it.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Xeno Goku_Fr » Wed Feb 19, 2020 4:58 pm

Which is correct?

1. Super Full Power Jiren > Jiren > Broly >= Beerus ~ Belmod

2. Broly >= Beerus > Super Full Power Jiren > Jiren > Belmod

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ankokudaishogun » Wed Feb 19, 2020 5:58 pm

Xeno Goku_Fr wrote:
Wed Feb 19, 2020 4:58 pm
Which is correct?

1. Super Full Power Jiren > Jiren > Broly >= Beerus ~ Belmod

2. Broly >= Beerus > Super Full Power Jiren > Jiren > Belmod
Both wrong because it's impossible to know. We only have SFPJiren>Belmod and SSFPBroly>Beerus(maybe: Goku never tasted Beerus' full power)

In the manga, Beerus and Belmod aren't too different in power. While Beerus might be stronger, the difference is not an abyss.
Likewise, Manga Jiren isn't an absolute invincible monster of might.
It's perfectly credible he might be stronger than Belmod but weaker than Beerus(and therefore Broly).

In the anime, Super Full Power Jiren is so much powerful than his regular Full Power it borders on the ridicule.
And everything implies Belmod was defeated AT BEST by regular Full Power Jiren.
We don't have sufficient comparisons between Belmod and Beerus in the anime. Hell the ONE comparison we have is Beerus being WEAKER than Belmod at arm wrestling, not really a good comparison for martial might.

Tl;dr: we don't have enough information to evaluate correctly who is stronger, especially because the two main continuities(anime and manga) have Jiren at very different levels of might.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Wed Feb 19, 2020 9:01 pm

That’s the answer. Beerus’ true capability is unknown even to Goku, so it’s possible his assessment was off. So far, it’s only implied Jiren is stronger than Vermoud.

If you go by the chibi stickers (and that’s entirely up to you), Broli is stronger than Jiren, but Jiren surpass him when he breaks his limit. Beerus and Vermoud are ????

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Wed Feb 19, 2020 11:05 pm

ankokudaishogun wrote:
Wed Feb 19, 2020 5:58 pm
Xeno Goku_Fr wrote:
Wed Feb 19, 2020 4:58 pm
Which is correct?

1. Super Full Power Jiren > Jiren > Broly >= Beerus ~ Belmod

2. Broly >= Beerus > Super Full Power Jiren > Jiren > Belmod
Both wrong because it's impossible to know. We only have SFPJiren>Belmod and SSFPBroly>Beerus(maybe: Goku never tasted Beerus' full power)

In the manga, Beerus and Belmod aren't too different in power. While Beerus might be stronger, the difference is not an abyss.
Likewise, Manga Jiren isn't an absolute invincible monster of might.
It's perfectly credible he might be stronger than Belmod but weaker than Beerus(and therefore Broly).

In the anime, Super Full Power Jiren is so much powerful than his regular Full Power it borders on the ridicule.
And everything implies Belmod was defeated AT BEST by regular Full Power Jiren.
We don't have sufficient comparisons between Belmod and Beerus in the anime. Hell the ONE comparison we have is Beerus being WEAKER than Belmod at arm wrestling, not really a good comparison for martial might.

Tl;dr: we don't have enough information to evaluate correctly who is stronger, especially because the two main continuities(anime and manga) have Jiren at very different levels of might.
I think that quote alone is enough to consider them somewhat on the same ground and not have one many times stronger than the other.

We can't tell who'd win between them because strenght isn't enough. During the U6 tournament, SSB Vegeta could definitely beat Hit in an arm wrestling match, but Hit cleaned up the floor with him anyway, so secret techniques (U10 Hakaishin has that loud roar for example) could come into play and who is physically stronger wouldn't mean much then. I, myself, am not sure if MUI Goku could win in an AWM against Jiren but he can kick his ass for sure.

FP Beerus is still a mystery, Toriyama could come up tomorrow with Beerus just being supressed all this time in order to keep him as the top dog and actually be on MUI Gogeta level. He has retconned Beerus before, so it could happen again. That's why even though everything points to Jiren > Beerus, you can never be sure.
Although I think it would be detrimental to the story. Having non-fighting Beerus as the strongest and as a friend of the cast removes all the tension, it happened in RoF, and the FT arc had Beerus dead for a reason. The whole DBS is sort of tensionless due to the chilled, untouchable cat.
Goku, Vegeta, Broly, Jiren, they are all closing in and even surpassing the GoDs, it'd be a pretty stupid move to extend his reign just because. I hope they do something else with his character and don't stagnate him.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Thu Feb 20, 2020 1:13 pm

Hugo Boss wrote:
Wed Feb 19, 2020 9:01 pm
That’s the answer. Beerus’ true capability is unknown even to Goku, so it’s possible his assessment was off. So far, it’s only implied Jiren is stronger than Vermoud.

If you go by the chibi stickers (and that’s entirely up to you), Broli is stronger than Jiren, but Jiren surpass him when he breaks his limit. Beerus and Vermoud are ????
That's actually how I currently have Jiren and Broly.

UI Goku > LB Jiren > SSB Gogeta > Broly >= Beerus > Jiren > Belmond.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Xeogran » Thu Feb 20, 2020 5:22 pm

So.. about powered up Saganbo.
He's honestly doing better against 17 and the rest than even Jiren.. and yeah :roll:

What do you think about him?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ankokudaishogun » Thu Feb 20, 2020 6:23 pm

Koitsukai wrote:
Wed Feb 19, 2020 11:05 pm
ankokudaishogun wrote:
Wed Feb 19, 2020 5:58 pm
We don't have sufficient comparisons between Belmod and Beerus in the anime. Hell the ONE comparison we have is Beerus being WEAKER than Belmod at arm wrestling, not really a good comparison for martial might.
I think that quote alone is enough to consider them somewhat on the same ground and not have one many times stronger than the other.
Not really.
Physical strength isn't everything in a fight. Hell, at this point it's likely the minor part of the thing
Having trickier techniques can easily give one an advantage against somebody who is only physically stronger, as you say.

That said: if Beerus was SENSIBLY stronger than Belmod, it would have been noted by some character.
In the manga the one who defeated him at arm wrestling was Quitela, and they were more or less matched in the Hakaishin Brawl(with Belmod faking).
Likewise, Beerus and Champa cannot be on sensibly different levels or their rivalry makes no sense.

In general, everything in context points to Hakaishins being more or less equals as fighting capability goes.

Which means Anime SFPJiren is massively stronger than any Hakaishin, Beerus included no doubt whatsoever.
Which makes him stronger than Broly who is only maybe stronger than Beerus.
(then again: the movie was made well before the anime reached SFP Jiren. I wouldn't take any "maybe" from it as true.)


Most likely, Toriyama will have a reveal that Beerus began training again and mastered Ultra Instinct by the time of his showdown with Goku.
Although I think it would be detrimental to the story. Having non-fighting Beerus as the strongest and as a friend of the cast removes all the tension, it happened in RoF, and the FT arc had Beerus dead for a reason. The whole DBS is sort of tensionless due to the chilled, untouchable cat.
Future trunks saga had Beerus doing nothing for the REAL problem, the Black in the Future
The whole point of that and Future Zeno annihilating the Future was to show the MCs they can't rely on Gods helping them

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Thu Feb 20, 2020 6:35 pm

Xeogran wrote:
Thu Feb 20, 2020 5:22 pm
So.. about powered up Saganbo.
He's honestly doing better against 17 and the rest than even Jiren.. and yeah :roll:

What do you think about him?
Just another proof of the strength of next level characters. All it took was a finger upgrade from Moro and Saganbo is tossing blue level beings around like candy. All at once too.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by GodVegetto91 » Thu Feb 20, 2020 6:57 pm

In today’s manga chapter, Moro gave Saganbo a very small, tiny portion of his own strength, and it already made him beyond SSJ Blue tier!

It immediately bulked him up, like he was on steroids or was being mind controlled like a Majin that takes you far beyond your normal ordinary limits.

Is this proof to how strong Moro has truly gotten???

What does this say about Moro’s strength?
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ssj3kakarot » Thu Feb 20, 2020 8:25 pm

Whachu guys think of who is stronger after both their trainings, Goku or Vegeta?

Vegeta has been under some training on Yardrat and Goku has been training with an Angel in a ROSAT.

Based off everything available, assuming they started their training approx the same power level, who should realisticly come out stronger vs who you think will?
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Thu Feb 20, 2020 8:38 pm

I think Saganbo can match Vegeta’s evolved Blue level, considering how easily he tossed 17 and Gohan around. It’s a little too soon to compare him or Moro with Jiren.

I guess Goku and Vegeta will end up tied in this arc.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by GodVegetto91 » Thu Feb 20, 2020 8:51 pm

ssj3kakarot wrote:
Thu Feb 20, 2020 8:25 pm
Whachu guys think of who is stronger after both their trainings, Goku or Vegeta?

Vegeta has been under some training on Yardrat and Goku has been training with an Angel in a ROSAT.

Based off everything available, assuming they started their training approx the same power level, who should realisticly come out stronger vs who you think will?
Vegeta will be the superior one imo. I am very confident in that. But we’ll see what time shows. There’s a reason he arrives on earth later than Kakkarot this time around. Spirit Control has unlocked his true, hidden potential after all these years of existence. He had never been able to fully utilize his own power like that. He was always unconsciously self limiting. So to have this Ultimate Vegeta, who DOES have more natural, in-born potential than Goku, will be superior. But Goku will be extremely OP and effective too with Ultra Instinct! Don’t clock him out just yet. This whole arc has been far more about Vegeta than Goku afterall. The ToP Arc was a little more about Goku ofcourse.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ssj3kakarot » Fri Feb 21, 2020 1:48 am

GodVegetto91 wrote:
Thu Feb 20, 2020 8:51 pm
ssj3kakarot wrote:
Thu Feb 20, 2020 8:25 pm
Whachu guys think of who is stronger after both their trainings, Goku or Vegeta?

Vegeta has been under some training on Yardrat and Goku has been training with an Angel in a ROSAT.

Based off everything available, assuming they started their training approx the same power level, who should realisticly come out stronger vs who you think will?
Vegeta will be the superior one imo. I am very confident in that. But we’ll see what time shows. There’s a reason he arrives on earth later than Kakkarot this time around. Spirit Control has unlocked his true, hidden potential after all these years of existence. He had never been able to fully utilize his own power like that. He was always unconsciously self limiting. So to have this Ultimate Vegeta, who DOES have more natural, in-born potential than Goku, will be superior. But Goku will be extremely OP and effective too with Ultra Instinct! Don’t clock him out just yet. This whole arc has been far more about Vegeta than Goku afterall. The ToP Arc was a little more about Goku ofcourse.
By virtue of Goku arriving 1st makes it seem like Vegeta will either get the win or that he is superior. I feel though that Goku should technically be superior due to the fact of his training. Just seems that ROSAT training with an Angel should yield a greater additive vs the Yardrat stuff.

I'm not sure if the show ever compares the potential of Goku and Vegeta directly, but it appears that Goku demonstrates the greater potential. Obviously the story is about Goku bc he's the main character but by virtue of Vegeta always training to surpass Goku implies that the great potential is Goku's. Goku is always frustrating Vegeta at every corner, surpassing him, or acheiving new transformations. I'm not saying Vegeta can't surpass Goku, but I dont think it's accurate to say Vegeta has more natural potential. Just my thoughts.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by GodVegetto91 » Fri Feb 21, 2020 8:34 am

ssj3kakarot wrote:
Fri Feb 21, 2020 1:48 am
GodVegetto91 wrote:
Thu Feb 20, 2020 8:51 pm
ssj3kakarot wrote:
Thu Feb 20, 2020 8:25 pm
Whachu guys think of who is stronger after both their trainings, Goku or Vegeta?

Vegeta has been under some training on Yardrat and Goku has been training with an Angel in a ROSAT.

Based off everything available, assuming they started their training approx the same power level, who should realisticly come out stronger vs who you think will?
Vegeta will be the superior one imo. I am very confident in that. But we’ll see what time shows. There’s a reason he arrives on earth later than Kakkarot this time around. Spirit Control has unlocked his true, hidden potential after all these years of existence. He had never been able to fully utilize his own power like that. He was always unconsciously self limiting. So to have this Ultimate Vegeta, who DOES have more natural, in-born potential than Goku, will be superior. But Goku will be extremely OP and effective too with Ultra Instinct! Don’t clock him out just yet. This whole arc has been far more about Vegeta than Goku afterall. The ToP Arc was a little more about Goku ofcourse.
By virtue of Goku arriving 1st makes it seem like Vegeta will either get the win or that he is superior. I feel though that Goku should technically be superior due to the fact of his training. Just seems that ROSAT training with an Angel should yield a greater additive vs the Yardrat stuff.

I'm not sure if the show ever compares the potential of Goku and Vegeta directly, but it appears that Goku demonstrates the greater potential. Obviously the story is about Goku bc he's the main character but by virtue of Vegeta always training to surpass Goku implies that the great potential is Goku's. Goku is always frustrating Vegeta at every corner, surpassing him, or acheiving new transformations. I'm not saying Vegeta can't surpass Goku, but I dont think it's accurate to say Vegeta has more natural potential. Just my thoughts.
At first glance, one might think that getting beaten to a pulp for 6 months straight by an Angel in a time chamber and thus achieving mastery over Ultra Instinct this way, is the superior route. And i couldn’t blame them. But we have to remember and consider a few very key elements here... Dragon Ball as a whole is all about “Ki”... And specifically “Ki control”... We also learned that if your mind/spirit and body are very off balance, (due to in Vegeta’s case having a really trained and powerful body but a really weak level of spirit power) that you will not be able to unleash your full potential.

Base Vegeta (BASE!) got so strong after a few weeks of meditating up there, that even a simple ki blast from his finger (intended to only shoot of the device from Yunba’s hand) turned into a MASSIVE energy wave that leveled an entire city. And Vegeta was visibly shocked! And Vegeta’s level of spirit control has now become so great that he can sense pretty much anything going on on planet earth right now. A planet very far away from Yardrat.

About their potentials...

It has been stated quite a few times by Vegeta himself, but also throughout the new (and old) Broly movies, and the Bardock movie, that Vegeta DOES have more potential than Goku. Even Whis hinted at it in episode 16 of Super. But the reason why Goku has always been one step ahead of Vegeta all throughout Z, and some moments in Super aswell, is because Goku has always had far better training...

Vegeta never had a master, and always trained by his lonesome. He was entirely self taught. Goku has always had masters! Ever since the beginning of Dragon Ball. Goku has trained under more than half a dozen masters throughout the whole story, from each of them learning very different, but very effective and crucial skills, and abilities. The most important ones are the training under 1. Mr. Popo, (to learn to sense ki and fight accordingly with that), 2. King Kai, that taught him Kaioken and the Spirit Bomb, 3. And the Spirit Control training under the Yardrats! In my opinion, the most important one, and the reason why i personally believe why Goku was able to unlock Ultra Instinct much easier than Vegeta during the ToP.

Through both Mr. Popo’s, and especially the Yardrat’s training regime’s, Goku was always able to unlock far more of his own hidden powers than Vegeta’s who never had any such luxurious training routine’s.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Jmass97 » Fri Feb 21, 2020 2:50 pm

Guys for the love of Dragon Ball. I love Jiren because he outside of the Gods, redefined what strength is in the Franchise. However, Broly is stronger than Jiren. Not only did frieza say that nobody could defeat Broly (it’s like people forget that Frieza fought Jiren) but there are statements straight up saying that Broly is the strongest enemy that Goku and Vegeta have fought. Enemy meaning the antagonist not a “bad guy” because neither Broly or Jiren are bad people. Also there are literal statements in scans saying that Broly is the strongest. We know for a fact that Jiren is stronger than the general strength level of the GODS and for sure stronger and Belmod. But it was never specifically said that he was stronger than Beerus. Why? Because they are saving showing us Beerus’s power obviously, so we don’t know how strong he is. Also, even though Gogeta was beating Broly, it wasn’t a one-shot deal and Broly kept coming back which prompted Gogeta (in blue which is thousands of times stronger than a base Gogeta which is ALREADY stronger than blue Goku and Vegeta individually) to get serious at the very end. Not only that, but Broly was still growing and evolving even still (we see him in his legendary form now with the yellow eyes of the Ikari form just before he got wished away). Yes Jiren kept up with UI Goku and breaking his limits did put him even higher above god tier and that’s fine. But why should that make Broly weaker? Unless you think that UI Goku is stronger than a post TOP Gogeta blue? He may have the speed advantage and could possibly even win but in terms of RAW STRENGTH I’m sure Gogeta is Superior. Now of course a Broly movie UI Goku and Moro arc UI Goku would most likely be stronger than Gogeta. With all that being said, check out Revolushane’s videos about the topic on YouTube. He explains everything and if you would like to talk about it please have a valid argument that hasn’t already been addressed. Thanks and much love.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Jmass97 » Fri Feb 21, 2020 2:59 pm

GodVegetto91 wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 4:32 pm
Koitsukai wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 3:57 pm
GodVegetto91 wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 3:35 pm
The next enemy is always stronger than the last
This is false as a rule of thumb, Hit stated himself that he reached his limit vs SSB Goku and without the time skip he'd have no chance, and until he enhanced his time skip not even with that technique he was a match for SSB. Vegeta also commented on Hit's attacks not being that big of a deal and his speed being nothing he couldn't do himself.
Hit's raw power is below SSB, while Golden Freeza was much stronger than SSB. Hit even with his technique couldn't touch SSB Goku.

Also, quoting a novel? really? over the actual movie? what makes a novel more valid than the actual movie written by Akira Toriyama and produced by Toei Animation?
I could say the same thing about you. Why are you disregarding my message ALL based on one single thing: (I should have said USUALLY always stronger), but you’re unforgiving apparently, trying to look for any reasons to attack me. It’s quite clear to me that you aren’t looking to have a rational discussion. Anyone arguing for a previous main antagonist to be stronger than a current main antagonist (without any hard evidence to back it up), automatically loses all credibility for me.

This is the last thing i’ll say for now. I’m out of here. Peace!
I agree with you man lol

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Jmass97 » Fri Feb 21, 2020 3:02 pm

Miracles wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 5:29 pm
After all that happened there is too much fact denying around here. The next enemy being weaker than the last does not SERVE the purpose of the story. Actually goes against the plot. Goku gets stronger each arc and his goal is to do so. No way does he train just to face weaker enemies than before. This is straight nonsense and headcanon from the fandom just to try and keep their favorite characters relevant. When in DB, past villains always get left in the dust. Yes, that includes Broly as well since Goku WILL BE THE STRONGEST facing his goalpost. Which Toriyama,; Backed by the story, said is Beerus.

For examples, Jiren was said to be stronger than BELMOND ONLY. Goku beat Jiren with UI. No where in the narration did it state Goku even as UI surpassed Beerus. LATER Broly was compared to Goku's goal post in the stronger god in Beerus post TOP. Facing a stronger Goku. Broly was not paralleled to the past weaklings in Belmond/Jiren who were beaten already. That means Broly is stronger since he is currently relevant.

Moro is facing a much stronger Goku/Vegeta. The UI Moro will face is leagues above TOP UI. This UI Goku was going to face an ANGEL at full power. Not to mention this spirit control Vegeta is letting out city destroying blasts with a FINGER BEAMS. Moro will be facing the greatest Goku and Vegeta's ever! Not to mention Merus, the angel sees Moro as such a threat he was going to fight alongside Goku and Vegeta against Moro.

This is all leading back to the story's premise about Goku and Vegeta "becoming "formidable rivals" for Beerus. Stated in the movie, anime and manga. So as Goku and Vegeta grows like this just to face Beerus, no way in God's green earth is anyone stronger than Beerus since he is the final boss.

DB is a story and the villians are here to serve that story. They are to give the main character it's purpose. Therefore Toriyama "ALWAYS" has the next enemy better than the last since Goku's theme is "always getting stronger." Anyone who says otherwise is in denial, pure and simple and can''t understand the plot of DBS.
I also agree with you as well lol

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