Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

Moderators: Kanzenshuu Staff, General Help

User avatar
Miracles
I Live Here
Posts: 3031
Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2008 10:31 am

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Thu Mar 05, 2020 6:57 pm

Sadala Elite wrote:
Thu Mar 05, 2020 6:52 pm
Miracles wrote:
Thu Mar 05, 2020 6:42 pm
Thunderbird wrote:
Thu Mar 05, 2020 4:52 pm
Vegeta being equal to Goku's Kaioken is irrelevant. Toppo's strength surpassed that and Vegeta after having the rage boost was drastically more powerful than before.
It isn't irrelevant, especially when the directors come out and said that AFTER Super ends. They were both equal after the TOP.
Sadala Elite wrote:
Thu Mar 05, 2020 6:13 pm


Ep 123 SSBKKx20 >> Ep 115 SSBKKx20

Goku gets stronger after each time he uses UI, that's why each UI Omen was stronger than the last.
No, each UI omen was stronger cause he was reaching the level of gods by getting closer to mastering UI. Nowhere was it stated they just grew randomly overall in strength.
You are making the false assumption that transformations are tiers and that Goku & Vegeta didnt get any stronger outside of new forms (which is easily debunked).

SSBKK & SSBE being equal means that they have the same multiplier, not that SSBKK from ep.123 was equal in power to the one from ep.109

Whis himself in the anime said that Goku gets stronger after each time he uses UI (the Omen boost itself never changed, Goku did), and there's numerous feats to back it up too.
Your just trying to fill in the blanks with headcanon. Firstly, it's a fact that It was never stated Goku and Vegeta got stronger overall...Proof...Vegeta's evolution Blue wouldn't be just equal to Goku's Blue KK in the end then. Jiren wouldn't need to sandbag against a weaker Blue Vegeta. Since he used more power to fight Goku before in the special. There is no statement about their overall powers growing just that they broke their limits via their new forms, evolution Blue and UI.
Last edited by Miracles on Thu Mar 05, 2020 7:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Thunderbird
Banned
Posts: 156
Joined: Wed Feb 26, 2020 11:20 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Thunderbird » Thu Mar 05, 2020 6:58 pm

Vegeta's enraged Super Saiyan Blue Evolved was not equal to Goku's Kaioken x20 after the fight with Top.

They were equal before that fight only.

User avatar
Koitsukai
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1211
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2018 5:02 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Thu Mar 05, 2020 7:06 pm

Thunderbird wrote:
Thu Mar 05, 2020 6:58 pm
Vegeta's enraged Super Saiyan Blue Evolved was not equal to Goku's Kaioken x20 after the fight with Top.

They were equal before that fight only.
I would add that Vegeta was the one dealing the final blows when fighting Jiren together, they were at least equals. After Toppo, Jiren even acknowledges Vegeta's ken that defeated Toppo. This also sort of happenes in the manga, Vegeta's boosted-CSSB was stated by Jiren to be the strongest thing aside of Goku's UI.

User avatar
Thunderbird
Banned
Posts: 156
Joined: Wed Feb 26, 2020 11:20 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Thunderbird » Thu Mar 05, 2020 7:08 pm

Well when he fought Toppo he fired a Final Flash which got overpowered by Hakai.

After his rage boost he punched straight through it with his fist.

User avatar
Hugo Boss
I Live Here
Posts: 3391
Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2013 3:04 pm
Location: Brazil

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Thu Mar 05, 2020 7:14 pm

Thunderbird wrote:
Thu Mar 05, 2020 9:56 am
Is God of Destruction Toppo stronger than Super Saiyan 2 Kefla?
There is nothing confirming each one is stronger. I guess it’s a pretty close match, maybe a tie.

User avatar
Triggered Vegeta
Not-So-Newbie
Posts: 97
Joined: Sat Mar 04, 2017 1:44 am

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Triggered Vegeta » Thu Mar 05, 2020 7:16 pm

Goku and Vegeta were portrayed as equals without UI. Once Vegeta got that Rage boost, he surpassed Goku KK at least for that episode.

SSBE(enraged) > Toppo>> SSB Evolution = SSBKKx20

Now where would SS2 Kefla fit into that mix? I'm not so sure Goku & Vegeta surpassed her in ep. 123 especially the enraged Kefla.

Sadala Elite
Regular
Posts: 540
Joined: Fri Jan 10, 2020 2:27 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Sadala Elite » Thu Mar 05, 2020 7:18 pm

Miracles wrote:
Thu Mar 05, 2020 6:57 pm
Sadala Elite wrote:
Thu Mar 05, 2020 6:52 pm
Miracles wrote:
Thu Mar 05, 2020 6:42 pm

It isn't irrelevant, especially when the directors come out and said that AFTER Super ends. They were both equal after the TOP.

No, each UI omen was stronger cause he was reaching the level of gods by getting closer to mastering UI. Nowhere was it stated they just grew randomly overall in strength.
You are making the false assumption that transformations are tiers and that Goku & Vegeta didnt get any stronger outside of new forms (which is easily debunked).

SSBKK & SSBE being equal means that they have the same multiplier, not that SSBKK from ep.123 was equal in power to the one from ep.109

Whis himself in the anime said that Goku gets stronger after each time he uses UI (the Omen boost itself never changed, Goku did), and there's numerous feats to back it up too.
Your just trying to fill in the blanks with headcanon. Firstly, it's a fact that It was never stated Goku and Vegeta got stronger overall...Proof...Vegeta's evolution Blue wouldn't be just equal to Goku's Blue KK in the end then. Jiren wouldn't need to sandbag against a weaker than Goku Blue Vegeta. Since he used more power to fight Goku before in the special. There is no statement about their overall powers growing just that they broke their limits via their new forms, evolution Blue and UI.
Vegeta pride boost against GoD Toppo alone debunks the claim that Goku and Vegeta didn't get stronger without new forms.

Its stated numerous times that DID get stronger throughout the ToP, even before unlocking new forms. It is denialism to say otherwise. Hell, Jiren in ep.123 used more of his power against SSKBBx20 and SSBE Vegeta than he did against the 1st UI Omen back in ep.110 (with Belmod even saying in that episode that Jiren hasn't used that level of power in years).

Sadala Elite
Regular
Posts: 540
Joined: Fri Jan 10, 2020 2:27 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Sadala Elite » Thu Mar 05, 2020 7:21 pm

Thunderbird wrote:
Thu Mar 05, 2020 6:58 pm
Vegeta's enraged Super Saiyan Blue Evolved was not equal to Goku's Kaioken x20 after the fight with Top.

They were equal before that fight only.
What Toei was saying with that interview was that SSBKKx20 and SSBE have the same multipliers, not that Goku and Vegeta were equals at all times with those forms (from ep.123 until the pride boost was the only time were they equals without UI).

User avatar
Miracles
I Live Here
Posts: 3031
Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2008 10:31 am

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Thu Mar 05, 2020 7:25 pm

Sadala Elite wrote:
Thu Mar 05, 2020 7:18 pm
Miracles wrote:
Thu Mar 05, 2020 6:57 pm
Sadala Elite wrote:
Thu Mar 05, 2020 6:52 pm


You are making the false assumption that transformations are tiers and that Goku & Vegeta didnt get any stronger outside of new forms (which is easily debunked).

SSBKK & SSBE being equal means that they have the same multiplier, not that SSBKK from ep.123 was equal in power to the one from ep.109

Whis himself in the anime said that Goku gets stronger after each time he uses UI (the Omen boost itself never changed, Goku did), and there's numerous feats to back it up too.
Your just trying to fill in the blanks with headcanon. Firstly, it's a fact that It was never stated Goku and Vegeta got stronger overall...Proof...Vegeta's evolution Blue wouldn't be just equal to Goku's Blue KK in the end then. Jiren wouldn't need to sandbag against a weaker than Goku Blue Vegeta. Since he used more power to fight Goku before in the special. There is no statement about their overall powers growing just that they broke their limits via their new forms, evolution Blue and UI.
Vegeta pride boost against GoD Toppo alone debunks the claim that Goku and Vegeta didn't get stronger without new forms.

Its stated numerous times that DID get stronger throughout the ToP, even before unlocking new forms. It is denialism to say otherwise. Hell, Jiren in ep.123 used more of his power against SSKBBx20 and SSBE Vegeta than he did against the 1st UI Omen back in ep.110 (with Belmod even saying in that episode that Jiren hasn't used that level of power in years).
It isn't stated numerous times that they got stronger without or in their new forms. That's only what you say. The directors state something different.
Last edited by Miracles on Thu Mar 05, 2020 7:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Hugo Boss
I Live Here
Posts: 3391
Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2013 3:04 pm
Location: Brazil

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Thu Mar 05, 2020 7:25 pm

Sadala Elite wrote:
Thu Mar 05, 2020 7:21 pm
What Toei was saying with that interview was that SSBKKx20 and SSBE have the same multipliers
Which interview?

Sadala Elite
Regular
Posts: 540
Joined: Fri Jan 10, 2020 2:27 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Sadala Elite » Thu Mar 05, 2020 7:31 pm

Miracles wrote:
Thu Mar 05, 2020 7:25 pm
Sadala Elite wrote:
Thu Mar 05, 2020 7:18 pm
Miracles wrote:
Thu Mar 05, 2020 6:57 pm

Your just trying to fill in the blanks with headcanon. Firstly, it's a fact that It was never stated Goku and Vegeta got stronger overall...Proof...Vegeta's evolution Blue wouldn't be just equal to Goku's Blue KK in the end then. Jiren wouldn't need to sandbag against a weaker than Goku Blue Vegeta. Since he used more power to fight Goku before in the special. There is no statement about their overall powers growing just that they broke their limits via their new forms, evolution Blue and UI.
Vegeta pride boost against GoD Toppo alone debunks the claim that Goku and Vegeta didn't get stronger without new forms.

Its stated numerous times that DID get stronger throughout the ToP, even before unlocking new forms. It is denialism to say otherwise. Hell, Jiren in ep.123 used more of his power against SSKBBx20 and SSBE Vegeta than he did against the 1st UI Omen back in ep.110 (with Belmod even saying in that episode that Jiren hasn't used that level of power in years).
It isn't stated numerous times that they got stronger without or in their new forms. That's only what you say. The directors state something different.
The directors never said that they didnt either, the interview wasnt even about that.
Last edited by Sadala Elite on Thu Mar 05, 2020 7:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Sadala Elite
Regular
Posts: 540
Joined: Fri Jan 10, 2020 2:27 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Sadala Elite » Thu Mar 05, 2020 7:32 pm

Hugo Boss wrote:
Thu Mar 05, 2020 7:25 pm
Sadala Elite wrote:
Thu Mar 05, 2020 7:21 pm
What Toei was saying with that interview was that SSBKKx20 and SSBE have the same multipliers
Which interview?
The one were it was revealed that SSBKKx20 = SSBE

User avatar
Miracles
I Live Here
Posts: 3031
Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2008 10:31 am

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Thu Mar 05, 2020 7:39 pm

Sadala Elite wrote:
Thu Mar 05, 2020 7:31 pm
Miracles wrote:
Thu Mar 05, 2020 7:25 pm
Sadala Elite wrote:
Thu Mar 05, 2020 7:18 pm


Vegeta pride boost against GoD Toppo alone debunks the claim that Goku and Vegeta didn't get stronger without new forms.

Its stated numerous times that DID get stronger throughout the ToP, even before unlocking new forms. It is denialism to say otherwise. Hell, Jiren in ep.123 used more of his power against SSKBBx20 and SSBE Vegeta than he did against the 1st UI Omen back in ep.110 (with Belmod even saying in that episode that Jiren hasn't used that level of power in years).
It isn't stated numerous times that they got stronger without or in their new forms. That's only what you say. The directors state something different.
The directors never said that they didnt either, the interview wasnt even about that.
That Goku Blue KK is equal with Vegeta's evolution Blue.. Shows they didn't get stronger overall.
You are just trying to explain the story all by yourself.
Last edited by Miracles on Thu Mar 05, 2020 7:50 pm, edited 2 times in total.

BagetaSama
Newbie
Posts: 34
Joined: Tue Jan 07, 2020 4:32 am

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by BagetaSama » Thu Mar 05, 2020 7:39 pm

Thunderbird wrote:
Thu Mar 05, 2020 6:58 pm
Vegeta's enraged Super Saiyan Blue Evolved was not equal to Goku's Kaioken x20 after the fight with Top.

They were equal before that fight only.
Exactly. He got stronger during the fight with Toppo. And we know it is a permanent boost from what Jiren says.

User avatar
Miracles
I Live Here
Posts: 3031
Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2008 10:31 am

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Thu Mar 05, 2020 7:41 pm

Thunderbird wrote:
Thu Mar 05, 2020 6:58 pm
Vegeta's enraged Super Saiyan Blue Evolved was not equal to Goku's Kaioken x20 after the fight with Top.

They were equal before that fight only.
Where was that stated? Especially when the directors say they are both equal after the series is over with. Goku's blue was stronger than Vegeta's blue since Jiren used more power against Goku in the special than against Vegeta later. You guys simply don't know the scaling cause TOEI never made it clear with it's terrible narration.

User avatar
Hugo Boss
I Live Here
Posts: 3391
Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2013 3:04 pm
Location: Brazil

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Thu Mar 05, 2020 8:41 pm

Sadala Elite wrote:
Thu Mar 05, 2020 7:32 pm
Hugo Boss wrote:
Thu Mar 05, 2020 7:25 pm
Sadala Elite wrote:
Thu Mar 05, 2020 7:21 pm
What Toei was saying with that interview was that SSBKKx20 and SSBE have the same multipliers
Which interview?
The one were it was revealed that SSBKKx20 = SSBE
Can you provide the source?

User avatar
Miracles
I Live Here
Posts: 3031
Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2008 10:31 am

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Thu Mar 05, 2020 9:04 pm

Hugo Boss wrote:
Thu Mar 05, 2020 8:41 pm
Sadala Elite wrote:
Thu Mar 05, 2020 7:32 pm
Hugo Boss wrote:
Thu Mar 05, 2020 7:25 pm

Which interview?
The one were it was revealed that SSBKKx20 = SSBE
Can you provide the source?
https://twitter.com/Herms98/status/1028025720751017984

User avatar
Hugo Boss
I Live Here
Posts: 3391
Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2013 3:04 pm
Location: Brazil

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Thu Mar 05, 2020 9:35 pm

Thank you! Totally missed that. So, I guess it's in line with what happens in the anime. Vegeta and Goku are equal in those forms, then Vegeta surpass Goku due to his pride boost, and finally Goku surpass Vegeta with Ultra Instinct. In the future, Vegeta matches Ultra Instinct with a new level.

DBHeroes will show Goku vs. Beerus second match, that might shed a light on how anime staff view their respective placement in the story.

User avatar
Miracles
I Live Here
Posts: 3031
Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2008 10:31 am

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Thu Mar 05, 2020 10:11 pm

Hugo Boss wrote:
Thu Mar 05, 2020 9:35 pm
Thank you! Totally missed that. So, I guess it's in line with what happens in the anime. Vegeta and Goku are equal in those forms, then Vegeta surpass Goku due to his pride boost, and finally Goku surpass Vegeta with Ultra Instinct. In the future, Vegeta matches Ultra Instinct with a new level.

DBHeroes will show Goku vs. Beerus second match, that might shed a light on how anime staff view their respective placement in the story.
No problem. However, we simply don't know where god Toppo stands in comparison to Blue KK Goku. Vegeta's evolution Blue possibly could only equal Goku when he gets that supposed boost against Toppo. TOEI made this statement after the series ended and there is no narration where Vegeta surpassed Goku even without UI.

User avatar
Koitsukai
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1211
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2018 5:02 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Thu Mar 05, 2020 10:24 pm

I agree with Hugo Boss. The show was pretty straightforward about it, they made a great team vs Jiren and neither of them was doing any better than the other with Vegeta dealing the finishing blows, and then Vegeta gets that boost. It is also in line with how the manga ended up having Goku and Vegeta.

Post Reply