Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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MechaTrunks
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by MechaTrunks » Sun Mar 22, 2020 4:06 pm

Miracles wrote:
Sun Mar 22, 2020 3:54 pm
Except Vados stating Kefla being among the top tier in the TOP defeats that assessment.
Even the Pride Troopers stated Kefla was in a different league from Kale.
The point of narration was to make Kefla a heavy hitter.
A vague comment from Bados (remember when they said that Frost was the strongest fighter of their universe because Hit wasn't counted for ressons?) doesen't have more weight that the hard facts of Vegetto eating the senzu or Kefla being at a much lower level than Kale at his best.
That and the fact that mystic gohan levels of power made her one of the strongest, just not as strong as the god tiers, Jiren or Golden Freezer.

The Pride Troopers were beating Kale (because she was already past her límits when they confronted her), so of course Kefla was a league above what they knew.

Facts > statements of characters.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by MechaTrunks » Sun Mar 22, 2020 4:20 pm

Koitsukai wrote:
Sun Mar 22, 2020 1:04 pm
Hugo Boss wrote:
Sun Mar 22, 2020 6:42 am
I think the manga established that Goku Black couldn’t let out his true Super Saiyan powers until his fight with Vegeta. That’s why it seems his vanilla Super Saiyan isn’t strong in comparison to Vegeta, but after being “revived” he managed to match the imperfect SSBlue.
But even so, base Black shouldn't be that overpowered by SS2 Vegeta. That would make SS2 Vegeta way stronger than SS3 Goku, because apparently SS3 Goku wouldn't be enough for Base Black. At best, base Black vs SS2 Vegeta should've been an evenly matched fight.
SSJ2 Vegeta has been above SSJ3 Goku since the Bills saga.
Since the SSJ aren't fixes multipliers and Zamatsu's soul changed how Goku's body worked (his base state didn't have the same límits and could receive zenkais until he reached the God forma) what was depicted in the manga is entirely possible.

Regards!

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Thunderbird » Sun Mar 22, 2020 4:40 pm

Miracles wrote:
Sun Mar 22, 2020 3:54 pm
No, Saganbo was stated to be weak. Even before Goku's training they were getting boosts from Moro.
No I mean the Saganbo that was kicking Gohan and Piccolo's ass. Would he have beaten Super Saiyan Blue Goku as of the Tournament of Power.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Sun Mar 22, 2020 4:47 pm

[/quote]
MechaTrunks wrote:
Sun Mar 22, 2020 4:06 pm
Miracles wrote:
Sun Mar 22, 2020 3:54 pm
Except Vados stating Kefla being among the top tier in the TOP defeats that assessment.
Even the Pride Troopers stated Kefla was in a different league from Kale.
The point of narration was to make Kefla a heavy hitter.
A vague comment from Bados (remember when they said that Frost was the strongest fighter of their universe because Hit wasn't counted for ressons?) doesen't have more weight that the hard facts of Vegetto eating the senzu or Kefla being at a much lower level than Kale at his best.
That and the fact that mystic gohan levels of power made her one of the strongest, just not as strong as the god tiers, Jiren or Golden Freezer.

The Pride Troopers were beating Kale (because she was already past her límits when they confronted her), so of course Kefla was a league above what they knew.

Facts > statements of characters.
Facts come from character statements which is through narration truth's. Vados clearly states the fusion of Kefla is among the best because of Kale's sheer power combined with Caulifa's battle sense. There is no mention of power drop when they fuse. You are not going to get that type of praise of power from the plot if your at Kale's former level where she was getting beat by weaklings.
Thunderbird wrote:
Sun Mar 22, 2020 4:40 pm
Miracles wrote:
Sun Mar 22, 2020 3:54 pm
No, Saganbo was stated to be weak. Even before Goku's training they were getting boosts from Moro.
No I mean the Saganbo that was kicking Gohan and Piccolo's ass. Would he have beaten Super Saiyan Blue Goku as of the Tournament of Power.
Yes. Saganbo was taking blows from this current Blue Goku who was already dimensions above his TOP self.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Sun Mar 22, 2020 5:11 pm

MechaTrunks wrote:
Sun Mar 22, 2020 4:20 pm
Koitsukai wrote:
Sun Mar 22, 2020 1:04 pm
Hugo Boss wrote:
Sun Mar 22, 2020 6:42 am
I think the manga established that Goku Black couldn’t let out his true Super Saiyan powers until his fight with Vegeta. That’s why it seems his vanilla Super Saiyan isn’t strong in comparison to Vegeta, but after being “revived” he managed to match the imperfect SSBlue.
But even so, base Black shouldn't be that overpowered by SS2 Vegeta. That would make SS2 Vegeta way stronger than SS3 Goku, because apparently SS3 Goku wouldn't be enough for Base Black. At best, base Black vs SS2 Vegeta should've been an evenly matched fight.
SSJ2 Vegeta has been above SSJ3 Goku since the Bills saga.
Since the SSJ aren't fixes multipliers and Zamatsu's soul changed how Goku's body worked (his base state didn't have the same límits and could receive zenkais until he reached the God forma) what was depicted in the manga is entirely possible.

Regards!
I guess there is no other way than SS2 Vegeta being many times stronger than SS3 Goku.

Weird, though, Vegeta finally surpassed Goku in BoG but he didn't become leagues above him like the gap the manga proposes when there shouldn't be one at all (or at least a minimum gap) after BoG and training with Whis, specially if the manga implies that under Whis, Goku is the one ahead of Vegeta.

So, it would be like this:
SS2 Trunks 2
SS3 Goku 3
Base Black 4
SS Black 5
SS2 Vegeta 6

still looks to me like a huge gap between SS3 Goku and SS2 Vegeta, and I'm being lenient putting Goku higher than Trunks and SS Black as a minimal boost on base Black

Thank you very much, and my regards to you too!

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by MechaTrunks » Sun Mar 22, 2020 6:07 pm

Koitsukai wrote:
Sun Mar 22, 2020 5:11 pm
I guess there is no other way than SS2 Vegeta being many times stronger than SS3 Goku.

Weird, though, Vegeta finally surpassed Goku in BoG but he didn't become leagues above him like the gap the manga proposes when there shouldn't be one at all (or at least a minimum gap) after BoG and training with Whis, specially if the manga implies that under Whis, Goku is the one ahead of Vegeta.

So, it would be like this:
SS2 Trunks 2
SS3 Goku 3
Base Black 4
SS Black 5
SS2 Vegeta 6

still looks to me like a huge gap between SS3 Goku and SS2 Vegeta, and I'm being lenient putting Goku higher than Trunks and SS Black as a minimal boost on base Black

Thank you very much, and my regards to you too!
Well, considering that SSJ3 Goku could do absolutely nothing against Bills and that Vegeta was able to connect some hits to him, maybe not double as strong but a good 30-40% could bé perfectly possible.

Vegeta was always much stronger than Goku in his base state, so if he gains the control over his Ki that Goku had (and even surpasses him) his SSJ forma should all be stronger.
Miracles wrote:
Sun Mar 22, 2020 4:47 pm
Facts come from character statements which is through narration truth's. Vados clearly states the fusion of Kefla is among the best because of Kale's sheer power combined with Caulifa's battle sense. There is no mention of power drop when they fuse. You are not going to get that type of praise of power from the plot if your at Kale's former level where she was getting beat by weaklings.
1. The characters speak from their POW, they're not omniscient narrators and Dragon Balls writes their characters better than most other shonens in that sense.
It could perfectly be that Vados ignored the fact that injured fighters would result in an inferior fusion.

2. We have 2 solid, hard facts: Vegetto took a senzu and Kefla was at mystic Gohan levels of power.
And no, Gohan isn't at the levels of t'he God forms, not even in this saga, even less in the ToP.

3. They don't have to mention everything everytime. The power drop is evident from the fact that the two fighters were weakened, and we already know from the Balck saga that a Fusion doesn't ignore injuries.

Regards!

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Sun Mar 22, 2020 7:30 pm

MechaTrunks wrote:
Sun Mar 22, 2020 6:07 pm
Miracles wrote:
Sun Mar 22, 2020 4:47 pm
Facts come from character statements which is through narration truth's. Vados clearly states the fusion of Kefla is among the best because of Kale's sheer power combined with Caulifa's battle sense. There is no mention of power drop when they fuse. You are not going to get that type of praise of power from the plot if your at Kale's former level where she was getting beat by weaklings.
1. The characters speak from their POW, they're not omniscient narrators and Dragon Balls writes their characters better than most other shonens in that sense.
It could perfectly be that Vados ignored the fact that injured fighters would result in an inferior fusion.

2. We have 2 solid, hard facts: Vegetto took a senzu and Kefla was at mystic Gohan levels of power.
And no, Gohan isn't at the levels of t'he God forms, not even in this saga, even less in the ToP.

3. They don't have to mention everything everytime. The power drop is evident from the fact that the two fighters were weakened, and we already know from the Balck saga that a Fusion doesn't ignore injuries.

Regards!
I get that. However, you are simply assuming the power drop based on what Goku and Vegeta did in FT arc.
The narrative in the TOP for Caulifla and Kale only mentions a power increase. No need for a Senzu.

All the best!

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Thunderbird » Sun Mar 22, 2020 7:31 pm

Miracles wrote:
Sun Mar 22, 2020 4:47 pm
Yes. Saganbo was taking blows from this current Blue Goku who was already dimensions above his TOP self.
How do we know he's dimensions above?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Sun Mar 22, 2020 7:35 pm

Thunderbird wrote:
Sun Mar 22, 2020 7:31 pm
Miracles wrote:
Sun Mar 22, 2020 4:47 pm
Yes. Saganbo was taking blows from this current Blue Goku who was already dimensions above his TOP self.
How do we know he's dimensions above?
We are TWO arcs from the TOP. Goku was already stronger going into the Broly arc. Then he was "stronger than ever" coming into the Galactic Patrol arc. In this very arc he has trained six months in a low budget room of spirit and time chamber, giving him three days worth of training in one day. Where he was having death battles with an angel and now Piccolo points out that his Blue form is way way above his TOP self.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Thunderbird » Mon Mar 23, 2020 2:15 am

All he said was that he was way stronger than when they last saw him as Blue. Doesn't mean he's "dimensions" above, that just sounds made up.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by CortoMaltese » Mon Mar 23, 2020 5:13 am

The problem with the chapter is now Goku Blue is so much stronger than Gohan + C17.
That's crazy than Gohan and Co are ants against a Saganbo with just one boost and that against Goku Blue the same Saganbo appear so weak even with several boost later !!!
Goku apologizes to Gohan that he need to fight again, so even with his participation to the TOP Goku don't consider his son as a fighter.....

Frieza is beloved by Toriyama and we know we'll see him again.
If like in the TOP and the Broly movie, the autor continue to portrait him as the equal of SSBLUE, we'll just return to FNF status quo with Goku Blue, Vegeta Blue and Golden Frieza became 100 times strongers than the Z warriors and we don't even talk of UI, Blue Evolution or new Frieza form....
What is the purpose of the TOP if we keep the same situation than before ?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Kagari » Mon Mar 23, 2020 12:38 pm

CortoMaltese wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 5:13 am
The problem with the chapter is now Goku Blue is so much stronger than Gohan + C17.
That's crazy than Gohan and Co are ants against a Saganbo with just one boost and that against Goku Blue the same Saganbo appear so weak even with several boost later !!!
Goku apologizes to Gohan that he need to fight again, so even with his participation to the TOP Goku don't consider his son as a fighter.....

Frieza is beloved by Toriyama and we know we'll see him again.
If like in the TOP and the Broly movie, the autor continue to portrait him as the equal of SSBLUE, we'll just return to FNF status quo with Goku Blue, Vegeta Blue and Golden Frieza became 100 times strongers than the Z warriors and we don't even talk of UI, Blue Evolution or new Frieza form....
What is the purpose of the TOP if we keep the same situation than before ?
Goku in the DBS manga has never once respected or acknowledged Gohan as a fighter... and that's a problem. Even during the manga ToP Goku is baffled by Gohan's jumps in strength and never once praises him for his growth. It's typically Vegeta or Piccolo given lines supporting Gohan's participation or his training. This is the opposite of the anime where Goku is constantly supportive.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Mon Mar 23, 2020 2:15 pm

Thunderbird wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 2:15 am
All he said was that he was way stronger than when they last saw him as Blue. Doesn't mean he's "dimensions" above, that just sounds made up.
Take a deep breath and read my post again. You chose one part of the story.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Thunderbird » Mon Mar 23, 2020 2:33 pm

Being stronger than ever doesn't mean anything. If he increases his strength by even 1% he'd be stronger than ever. There was no saying how much stronger he was in the Broly movie.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Mon Mar 23, 2020 5:52 pm

I think you could even say current Gohan is probably stronger than SSBlue Goku from Jiren Arc, given how Goku compliments his strength, so considering that current SSBlue Goku can do that much to Saganbo, who became stronger than Gohan and powered-up even further, makes you think there is gargantuan gap between those SSBlues.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Mon Mar 23, 2020 7:52 pm

Thunderbird wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 2:33 pm
Being stronger than ever doesn't mean anything. If he increases his strength by even 1% he'd be stronger than ever. There was no saying how much stronger he was in the Broly movie.
OK...

Your not reading my post fully in context. Piccolo and Gohan were even unrecognizable compared to their TOP versions. That means, even for them, there was an immense leap in power since then. So much so, they aren't anywhere near identical to their previous selves. You can't scale Moro arc Gohan to TOP Gohan, there is no comparison.

Now despite those facts, you are trying to tell me, a Goku, who went at Broly, while stronger than his TOP self; afterwards, headed into Moro arc, "stronger than ever" after that altercation, trained six months with an angel, in a room; allowing him to have three days of results in one, isn't levels beyond his TOP version?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Thunderbird » Mon Mar 23, 2020 8:50 pm

No, that's all head canon. He was just said to be much stronger, being dimensions above is just make believe.

Nevermind I'll just ask someone else.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Mon Mar 23, 2020 11:00 pm

Thunderbird wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 8:50 pm
No, that's all head canon. He was just said to be much stronger, being dimensions above is just make believe.

Nevermind I'll just ask someone else.
Your wrong again. What I posted is actually from the story. Saying one is dimensions above, is just another way of saying someone is way stronger; on another level;. As the entire chapter showcases and states.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by The Undying » Mon Mar 23, 2020 11:23 pm

I think "way stronger" is a pretty good description. I'm less certain about "dimensions stronger", but it doesn't matter; we know that enhanced Saganbo should stand comfortably above Blue Goku in the Universe Survival arc, whereas current Blue Goku is comfortably above enhanced Saganbo.

During the Tournament of Power, Vegeta said his power as of a few moments ago meant "nothing" to him after reaching his evolved state, so I'd be more inclined to put the current Goku somewhere in that general category of strength. I still don't think either one of them pose a threat to Jiren with just Blue.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Thunderbird » Mon Mar 23, 2020 11:55 pm

Miracles wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 11:00 pm
Your wrong again. What I posted is actually from the story. Saying one is dimensions above, is just another way of saying someone is way stronger; on another level;. As the entire chapter showcases and states.
Dimensions above is not the same as being much stronger no.

Move on now, you're waffling.

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