Sadala Elite wrote: ↑
Mon Apr 06, 2020 6:48 pm
1. Toriyama only said that he originally intended for SSJ1 to a 10x multiplier but he changed his mind to make it 50x (for good reason, because a 10x boost would make SSJ1 Goku weaker than Kaioken x20 which makes no sense).
That's why literally every official guide (including Toriyama himself in that same interview) says that SSJ1 is a 50x multipier. You are in denial.
They also said than SSJ1 Namek Goku's PL is 150 Million and that 100% Namek Freeza was 120 Million.
You have the interview translated in this page:
"Only, at the time, it was considered that his strength would increase 50-fold when he became a Super Saiyan, but that was a bit of an exaggeration. My feeling as the creator is that, while drawing it, I felt that it was about a 10-fold change
from what it was up to that point.
No, he's not saying that he initially planed it to be a 10x change but that when he reached that scene he had to draw it as a 50x boost, he literally says that his feelings as the author when drawing those scenes was a 10x increase of strength for Goku.
The 50x of the guides is precisely WHAT HE IS ADRESSING in the interview, and that's precisely why using the numbers provided by the guides (guides that contradict themselves as I've already demonstrated to you) are wrong.
Sadala Elite wrote:2. YOU are the one projecting headcanon. Watch the History of Trunks movie, its clear that the Future Androids were only toying with Future Trunks and that he was weaker than Future Gohan
The anime version of the history of Trunks changes a lot of things compared to the manga version of it (where the Trunks vs androids fight is off-paneled for a reason), it's like using anime DBS to discuss manga DBS.
Sadala Elite wrote:Trunks only killed the Androids in the Original Timeline due to using the remote device (stated in guides and the series itself), NOT do to fighting them. And Trunks was NOT caught off guard when he fought Cell in the Original Timeline if you watch the Anime. He charged him head-on.
It's impossible that Trunks could have a remote device of any kind to kill the androids. in fact, the guides explanatioin of the different TLs in the Cell saga is so wrong that they aren't even coherent in the amount of TL they end with and the times Trunks travels to the past!
Sadala Elite wrote:3. Cell himself told Piccolo I'm his 1st appearance that he's weaker than Android 17. That's why he went sneeking around early on. If the Androids were weaker than Freeza (as you say) then there's no way 1st form Cell could have killed Trunks (logically).
Are you aware that Cell had to revert to it's egg phase in order to fit into the time-machine?
He resets himself and starts from 0 again when he comes to the present, he explains it pretty well to Piccolo: In the future he absorbed humans until he was strong enough to absorb the androids, but when he started to look for them he found Trunks had already killed them, so he killed Trunks and went back to the future reverting to his egg state to fit into the ship!
Sadala Elite wrote:4. Transformations are NOT fixed tiers of power, they are multipliers of a person's base power. And they DO improve with training.
In which I agree, what I say is that the SSJ doesn't improve with regular training which is proven in the RoSat.
Vegeta trains for an extra year while starting from a much higher level than the one Goku had when he entered the RoSat, and still was much below him when he came out.
Goku inside the RoSat was training like Vegeta until he realised that he was getting no progress and decided to redo all his training plan with the "always in SSJ" rule in mind, because to improve the SSJ forms what's key is to master it's violent nature and get a high degree of ki control while on it.
Sadala Elite wrote:Hell, SSJ1 Goku in the Buu saga is MUCH stronger than SSJ1 Goku from Namek and even the Cell Games for example.
But that improvement didn't arribe until Goku decided to change the way he trained the SSJ. In the 3 years leading to the androids, Goku's improvements were so marginal that Vegeta managed to surpass him as soon as he was able to turn into a SSJ.
Then after Goku changed his training method, Vegeta wasn't able to come close to him even having trained 1 extra year in the most brutal conditions.
Sadala Elite wrote:5. Freeza on Namek was NOT weakened by injuries. It is pure headcanon to assume that he was weaken.
If every single character of the series gets weakened when he is injured, no, it's not headcanon that this happens to Freezer as well.
And even less when the manga states it twice:
"Even now I'm still able to kill you all" is the first thing Freezer says after coming back from the Genkidama. What the hell do you think that this "even now" means, if not that he can kill them all despite being weaker?
And if that wasn't enough, after sending SSJ Goku to the bottom of a lake Freezer says: "I have to leave the planet, I'll lose even more strength if I'm stuck in the explosion".
I mean, unless you try to spin the manga as much as Toriyama's words, I don't see how you can contradict those statements!
Koitsukai wrote:- Actually it does, in order to break that trend you'd need to explicitly say so; it was not.
It couldn't be more explicit in reality:
1. The androids didn't emit any Ki because their source of energy was artificial. Mecha Freezer's Ki was sensed as if he was a live being, so more than an android he was just Freezer with mechanical protesis.
2. Mecha Freezer lost badly against SSJ Trunks who is stated to have the same strength as SSJ Namek Goku who Freezer was able to fight against despite being injured.
3. Gohan says Mecha Freezer's power is nothing and assumes he is hidding his true potential despite Mecha Freezer not powering up even once in his fight against Trunks.
Koitsukai wrote:Badly injured means incapable of performing, like Gohan vs Cell, or Vegeta when Fat Buu blew up, or Freeza being cut in half.
Freeza was in better shape than Goku after the genki dama. He survived on his own, Goku almost drowned and was saved by Piccolo.
It's Freeza the one using the badly injured term, I'm still giving him 1/4 of his maximum battle power after reaching his 100%.
1/4 of his maximum battle power is still more than what Vegeta had when he fought enraged kid Gohan (Vegeta had less than 1/6th of his strength) and he still was performing well enough.
The problem is that you want to dismiss those injuries completely, as if they didn't happen or if Freezer was like kid Bu or A17, which clearly wasn't the case.
Between the Genkidama and the beating SSJ Goku gives him while Freeza is still in his 50%, making Freezer lose 3/4 of strength (still capable of giving a good fight, of course) is coherent with the rest of the series. What's not coherent is to say that Freezer didn't lose any strength!
Regarding the injuries, yes, Goku was much worse than Freezer prior to the rage boost. But Goku had a rage boost that replenished his Ki and Freezer didn't have it.
Gohan was also very weakened vs Vegeta but his rageboost completely refilled him. That's what happened to Goku as well.
Koitsukai wrote: Both actually series and every guide said that Freeza was still able to use his 100% power against SSJ1 Goku despite his injuries.
Look using the 100% just means that he is using all his power.
Vegeta was also able to use all of his power after being destroyed by the genkidama in the earth, it's just that his maximum power was very weak.
We have CELL, which does the exact same thing than Freezer (he fights while hiding his power against Goku), and Goku gives him a senzu just so he can recover the strength he had lost.
If I'm running at half my maximum intensity, and that's let's say 10km/h, then when running at full speed I should be able to reach 20km/h.
But if I break my leg, my full speed will probably be 4km/h, even if it's still MY FULL SPEED.
Full speed, full power, 100% of power... everything is the same and it just means "going all out".
Wasn't Freezer still at his 100% when Goku quit the fight because he could no longer keep up? Of course he was at his 100%, just much weaker because of his lack of stamina!
Koitsukai wrote:He can't sense ki but he sure knew in Namek just how much percentage he was using, pretty accurate, he knows how strong he is.
Even I can tell at a simple glance if I'm runing at maximum speed or more or less at half speed, which is what Freezer was doing.
Now, good luck in measuring if your maximum speed is 20 or 25 km/h without a crono and a fixed distance you could do your maths with.
Gohan is the crono here, and the crono is telling us that Freezer is not as fast as before, despite him being convinced he is. Then he's beaten to the pulp by someone who he should at the very least be able to have an even fight with proving who was right and who wasn't.
Koitsukai wrote: -Trunks was NOT exaggerating. The androids killed everyone, SS Gohan lost an arm, Trunks barely escaped. Present androids are so strong that Z-senshi can't even last a minute against them, not even being 4 vs 2, that's what he is telling, he is not contradicting himself or making room for people to assume he was exaggerating for Goku to bait. That is your headcanon.
The androids killing everyone when none of the z-warriors were SSJs or at the SSJ level of power (Piccolo surely was much weaker in the future TL) proves nothing.
We also don't know how Gohan lost his arm (it was in a fight against the androids, but we don't even know if he was fighting as a SSJ there), and the fact that Trunks barely escaped doesn't contradict that he could fight both androids fairly well (you can fight someone at his level and still lose, especially if they have unlimited energy).
But he killed those androids in one of the TLs, which reinforces his claim of being at their very same level.
If you say that Trunks was not exaggerating when he said that he could do nothing even against 1 single android, then why he retcons this and says that he could fight both androids fairly well?
I mean, he contradicts himself for a reason! If it was not him exaggerating then why did he do it? To see if the present z-warriros would get scared?
Koitsukai wrote:They are weaker but not weaker than himself, he would've taken back Goku immediately with him and both would've killed the androids in a heartbeat if that were the case.
He in fact killed the androids in one of the TLs. Taking Goku to the futrue I doubt it, but he probably took some senzu beans from the past which is what Toriyama hinted that happened in the manga.
Something in TL3 happened that changed that (I think the manga gives enough hints to know exactly what happened in the relevant points of every single TL) and Trunks came back from the future without killing the androids.
Koitsukai wrote:-Again, nobody knows what happened in Cell's timeline, not even Cell. Therefore anything you say about it is your headcanon. I'm literally making no assumptions, but I can do that too: Trunks and Bulma found Gero's underground lab and de-activated them and was going to the past to share the remote. There. We don't know what happened so you can't prove it one way or the other.
Trunks couldn't find something he didn't know it even existed in a place he didn't know even existed.
I mean the fact is that Trunks killed the androids and that Trunks told you that he could fight aginst the future androids fairly well.
You don't like this to be true and want the future androids to be much stronger than Trunks, but then you'll have to explain why Trunks lied and how he could suddenly gain information on an abandoned lab that he never tried to locate prior to his second trip to the past (so, events that he didn't experience in the first trip to the past)?
Hugo Boss wrote:Daizenshuu 7 seems to indicate that, after the battle with Freeza on Namek, this kind of power-up didn't get substantial, but it could amount to a little bit. Though, considering how Vegeta powered-up after training on Yardrat, I think most of Goku's gains came from that spirit control training.
Even if I don't think that the Yadrat training Vegeta got in super was what Toriyama had on mind for Goku in Yadrat (he explicitly stated that he didn't had time to train which wouldn't be the case if he really increased his Ki like Vegeta did), the zenkay powers for a saiyan were implied to disappear after the saiyan reached the limits of the base state.
This is further confirmed in Super, where it's directly stated in the Black Saga (Goku and Vegeta have no more zenkays because they've already reached their limits).