Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Except Goku didn't break his limits. That was stated to be his "full power" against merged Zamas.

Yet it broke his arms and he didn't use Kaioken, which logically means that he broke his normal SSB limits.

"Goku broke his limits," Not factual. Goku just used his "full power," facts.

And Saiyans have often been seen pushing their full power beyond their normal limits. Fact of the matter is, Goku was struggling with his normal limits and had to put out the full amount of power that he could into the Kamehameha.

And we know that Super and Max Power Kamehameha variants exist, ergo the Full-Power Kamehameha is likely similar in the fact that it uses up every possible ounce of energy that the user can manage to muster for that attack.

Just like in the manga and Toriyamaès original notes, Merged Zamasu can give some trouble to a SSB; the manga resolves this by having Goku seal his Ki to create the Complete SSB form that doesn't lose any of its power, and the anime resolves this by having Goku put out his fullest power possible into that one Kamehameha and then using Kaioken when it's still not enough.

[Hugo Boss]

Curiously only Goku break his arms when he uses his full power, which may imply Vegeta and Trunks didn’t give their all against Zamas either way.

[Miracles]

Yet it broke his arms and he didn't use Kaioken, which logically means that he broke his normal SSB limits.

"Goku broke his limits," Not factual. Goku just used his "full power," facts.

And Saiyans have often been seen pushing their full power beyond their normal limits. Fact of the matter is, Goku was struggling with his normal limits and had to put out the full amount of power that he could into the Kamehameha.

And we know that Super and Max Power Kamehameha variants exist, ergo the Full-Power Kamehameha is likely similar in the fact that it uses up every possible ounce of energy that the user can manage to muster for that attack.

Just like in the manga and Toriyamaès original notes, Merged Zamasu can give some trouble to a SSB; the manga resolves this by having Goku seal his Ki to create the Complete SSB form that doesn't lose any of its power, and the anime resolves this by having Goku put out his fullest power possible into that one Kamehameha and then using Kaioken when it's still not enough.

I understand that. It still doesn't change the fact that Goku only used his "full power" and it overpowered merged Zamas. Nothing stated about "breaking limits." You guys are an arc too early for that, lol.

[Triggered Vegeta]

Does anyone here believe Current UI Omen from the manga is a rival to Jiren(Manga) ? Based on the few scans from this upcoming chapter, Goku is doing very well against someone who transcends the gods! K this is only assuming Moro isn't using his absolute strength even tho it's implied he is.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

"Goku broke his limits," Not factual. Goku just used his "full power," facts.

And Saiyans have often been seen pushing their full power beyond their normal limits. Fact of the matter is, Goku was struggling with his normal limits and had to put out the full amount of power that he could into the Kamehameha.

And we know that Super and Max Power Kamehameha variants exist, ergo the Full-Power Kamehameha is likely similar in the fact that it uses up every possible ounce of energy that the user can manage to muster for that attack.

Just like in the manga and Toriyamaès original notes, Merged Zamasu can give some trouble to a SSB; the manga resolves this by having Goku seal his Ki to create the Complete SSB form that doesn't lose any of its power, and the anime resolves this by having Goku put out his fullest power possible into that one Kamehameha and then using Kaioken when it's still not enough.

I understand that. It still doesn't change the fact that Goku only used his "full power" and it overpowered merged Zamas. Nothing stated about "breaking limits." You guys are an arc too early for that, lol.

I think our disagreement is on what the context of "full power" actually means in this scene. Everything to me points to the idea that Goku was quite literally putting his all into that one attack and ended up seriously hurting himself in the process.

It's not an attack he'd ordinarily pull off in most life-or-death scenarios he's been in.

[Miracles]

Does anyone here believe Current UI Omen from the manga is a rival to Jiren(Manga) ? Based on the few scans from this upcoming chapter, Goku is doing very well against someone who transcends the gods! K this is only assuming Moro isn't using his absolute strength even tho it's implied he is.

No doubt. Since Jiren had to get "serious;" powering up against a TOP UI Omen.
He definitely would have to use more power, fighting a UI Omen, two arcs later; with six months of training behind it.

[Zamasu55]

Moro's statement about being above the Gods makes him as strong as (manga) Jiren now.

I have no doubts he'll get even stronger in the near future and definetely surpass U11's warrior.

Remember, it's DB. Every villain is stronger than the previous one.

Golden Freeza < Hit < SsjR Goku Black < Merged Zamasu < Jiren < Moro (not yet, will soon be).

The only exception is Beerus while it's not sure whether Broly is superior to Jiren.

[Grand Marshal 1]

I truly wonder, if they ever continue the anime, how Moro would be interpreted. Given the fact that the anime is basically Manga but stronger (although some mechanics change and Perfected Blue is something unique)

Imo, pre-fight Moro should be at least GoD Toppo tier. I believe he will be branded as having power to rival the actual GoDs.

By that logic FP SS Broly vs Prime Moro would be a dope matchup

[Triggered Vegeta]

Do you guys think Moro still has more hidden power or is that it? Also how do you think 73 will be used?

[Grand Marshal 1]

Do you guys think Moro still has more hidden power or is that it? Also how do you think 73 will be used?

I want to believe that Moro will use more abilities rn instead of raw power. Since his enemies are pretty much doing the same. You can only get that strong by eating planets.

Kinda ridiculous how Moro reaches GoD tiers of power by simply eating some planets tbh, compared to the struggle of everyone else

73 was probably an asset for this Arc only. May make an appearance in the future, like in the Galactic Prison, but I expect nothing from him or any of Moro's minions.

[GodVegetto91]

Do you guys think Moro still has more hidden power or is that it? Also how do you think 73 will be used?

I want to believe that Moro will use more abilities rn instead of raw power. Since his enemies are pretty much doing the same. You can only get that strong by eating planets.

Kinda ridiculous how Moro reaches GoD tiers of power by simply eating some planets tbh, compared to the struggle of everyone else

73 was probably an asset for this Arc only. May make an appearance in the future, like in the Galactic Prison, but I expect nothing from him or any of Moro's minions.

For 2 whole months straight that is, even AFTER eating the whole planet Namek and becoming youthful again.

Have you forgotten how strong Imperfect Cell became after absorbing millions of people? He went from being far below Piccolo and 17, to being far above them.

And his only energy source was humans. No animals, no other creatures, no air, no plants, no rocks, no atmosphere, not the planet itself, just a few million people.

Moro absorbed “countless” (by his own words) whole planets, including everything on it, thus many trillions of lifeforms.

So it’s not surprising that he became this strong.. Honestly I’m surprised UI Omen Goku even put up as good of a fight against him as he did.

[ZombieVito]

How much stronger than his SS2 was Trunks in SSR? He managed to give Black Rose a nice fight.

I was wondering if it wouldn't have been better to give him SS3, a perfected version of it that is? I mean, SSR is a mess, no one really knows how it works, if it's godly(that blue-ish glow) or not, while SS3 is a form we all know, and even if it has never been useful or defeated anyone, using it without drawbacks would have been nice, but I'm wondering if it would've been enough. Also a plus to master old forms instead of asspulling new ones that weren't even explained.

Although the anime doesn't hold Trunks' SS2 in such high regard as the Manga.

I wouldnt be so sure about the last part. He was clearly holding back and only went full power when Goku turned SS3. I have Trunks twice as strong as Goku on equal forms. This also makes the multiplier for SSR far less than SSB.

SSJ Rage is obviously equal to SSB, what are you talking about? Rage Trunks was able to fight off Rose Black & Future Zamasu by himself, the same Rose Black who causally beat down SSB Vegeta & Goku in their 1st future fight.

I'm talking about the multiplier.

SS Rage shouldn't have the same multiplier as Blue.

[Hugo Boss]

Base Goku easily caught Base Trunks punch when he woke up after having a very tense experience with Goku Black. So, I wouldn’t say all Trunks’ forms are stronger than Goku and Vegeta’s. Perhaps that’s a SS2 thing.

[Koitsukai]

Moro's statement about being above the Gods makes him as strong as (manga) Jiren now.

I have no doubts he'll get even stronger in the near future and definetely surpass U11's warrior.

Remember, it's DB. Every villain is stronger than the previous one.

Golden Freeza < Hit < SsjR Goku Black < Merged Zamasu < Jiren < Moro (not yet, will soon be).

The only exception is Beerus while it's not sure whether Broly is superior to Jiren.

Hit isn't stronger than Golden Freeza, he was weaker than SSB Goku in the anime and said he had no chance without the Time Skip, in the manga his full power is nowhere near SSB and can only use the Time Skip just once. And Broly surpassed Beerus.
But I agree Moro will end up being the strongest ever by the end of the arc, if this arc ever ends, that is.


So, how strong do you guys think BoG Goku was after the failed ritual? I'm talking about the first ritual, about the boost he got from everyone else and drove everybody crazy. He gets the ritual on top of that power.
Could that boosted-Goku take on Buuhan? in what form?
Was it a considerable boost? like without it, SSG would have been just as impressive?

[Sadala Elite]

Moro's statement about being above the Gods makes him as strong as (manga) Jiren now.

I have no doubts he'll get even stronger in the near future and definetely surpass U11's warrior.

Remember, it's DB. Every villain is stronger than the previous one.

Golden Freeza < Hit < SsjR Goku Black < Merged Zamasu < Jiren < Moro (not yet, will soon be).

The only exception is Beerus while it's not sure whether Broly is superior to Jiren.

Hit isn't stronger than Golden Freeza, he was weaker than SSB Goku in the anime and said he had no chance without the Time Skip, in the manga his full power is nowhere near SSB and can only use the Time Skip just once. And Broly surpassed Beerus.
But I agree Moro will end up being the strongest ever by the end of the arc, if this arc ever ends, that is.


So, how strong do you guys think BoG Goku was after the failed ritual? I'm talking about the first ritual, about the boost he got from everyone else and drove everybody crazy. He gets the ritual on top of that power.
Could that boosted-Goku take on Buuhan? in what form?
Was it a considerable boost? like without it, SSG would have been just as impressive?

Anime Hit is definitely stronger than Golden Freeza in both the U6 and ToP arcs (though not since the Broly film, Freeza improved).

[Koitsukai]

Moro's statement about being above the Gods makes him as strong as (manga) Jiren now.

I have no doubts he'll get even stronger in the near future and definetely surpass U11's warrior.

Remember, it's DB. Every villain is stronger than the previous one.

Golden Freeza < Hit < SsjR Goku Black < Merged Zamasu < Jiren < Moro (not yet, will soon be).

The only exception is Beerus while it's not sure whether Broly is superior to Jiren.

Hit isn't stronger than Golden Freeza, he was weaker than SSB Goku in the anime and said he had no chance without the Time Skip, in the manga his full power is nowhere near SSB and can only use the Time Skip just once. And Broly surpassed Beerus.
But I agree Moro will end up being the strongest ever by the end of the arc, if this arc ever ends, that is.


So, how strong do you guys think BoG Goku was after the failed ritual? I'm talking about the first ritual, about the boost he got from everyone else and drove everybody crazy. He gets the ritual on top of that power.
Could that boosted-Goku take on Buuhan? in what form?
Was it a considerable boost? like without it, SSG would have been just as impressive?

Anime Hit is definitely stronger than Golden Freeza in both the U6 and ToP arcs (though not since the Broly film, Freeza improved).

During the ToP, sure, that might work. In the anime, I'm talking raw power here, Hit without his time skip can't compete with SSB Goku, who was trashed by Golden Freeza. So even if Goku became stronger than Golden Freeza by the U6 tournament, which would be a huge gain(catching up to him and then leaving him behind), that still wouldn't mean Hit can dance with Freeza.

Again, I'm talking about raw power, Hit with his Time Skip can punch way above his weight, without it even Dyspo beat him up, also: how strong do you guys think BoG Goku was after the failed ritual? I'm talking about the first ritual, about the boost he got from everyone else and drove everybody crazy. He gets the ritual on top of that power.
Could that boosted-Goku take on Buuhan? in what form?
Was it a considerable boost? like without it, SSG would have been just as impressive?

[Grand Marshal 1]

Hit isn't stronger than Golden Freeza, he was weaker than SSB Goku in the anime and said he had no chance without the Time Skip, in the manga his full power is nowhere near SSB and can only use the Time Skip just once. And Broly surpassed Beerus.
But I agree Moro will end up being the strongest ever by the end of the arc, if this arc ever ends, that is.


So, how strong do you guys think BoG Goku was after the failed ritual? I'm talking about the first ritual, about the boost he got from everyone else and drove everybody crazy. He gets the ritual on top of that power.
Could that boosted-Goku take on Buuhan? in what form?
Was it a considerable boost? like without it, SSG would have been just as impressive?

Anime Hit is definitely stronger than Golden Freeza in both the U6 and ToP arcs (though not since the Broly film, Freeza improved).

During the ToP, sure, that might work. In the anime, I'm talking raw power here, Hit without his time skip can't compete with SSB Goku, who was trashed by Golden Freeza. So even if Goku became stronger than Golden Freeza by the U6 tournament, which would be a huge gain(catching up to him and then leaving him behind), that still wouldn't mean Hit can dance with Freeza.

Again, I'm talking about raw power, Hit with his Time Skip can punch way above his weight, without it even Dyspo beat him up, also: how strong do you guys think BoG Goku was after the failed ritual? I'm talking about the first ritual, about the boost he got from everyone else and drove everybody crazy. He gets the ritual on top of that power.
Could that boosted-Goku take on Buuhan? in what form?
Was it a considerable boost? like without it, SSG would have been just as impressive?

The failed ritual was stated to still be a considerable boost in Goku's power. I consider it the classic 'friends give you power to overcome any power ceiling from before' type of thing. That's what Goku did against Og Broly in movie 8 and when he did it in GT, he even got a name for the form 'Ultra Full Power SS4'. So this is like the Broly movie an 'Ultra Full Power SS' but better (more Saiyans).

By the statement on its own, Failed Ritual SS Goku>=SS Vegito, which is less than Super Saiyan God.

Also I believe that this SS from the failed ritual≠ God's Crimson Radiance (as the wiki calls it) SS Goku. A Super Saiyan with most of SSG's power absorbed.

[Hugo Boss]

New chapter spoilers*

It seems Moro still had power to spare, despite Goku going 100%. Quite strange that Goku mixed Ultra Instinct aura with Super Saiyan Blue aura, so he probably went above 100%, but his agility was getting worse.

[Koitsukai]

The failed ritual was stated to still be a considerable boost in Goku's power. I consider it the classic 'friends give you power to overcome any power ceiling from before' type of thing. That's what Goku did against Og Broly in movie 8 and when he did it in GT, he even got a name for the form 'Ultra Full Power SS4'. So this is like the Broly movie an 'Ultra Full Power SS' but better (more Saiyans).

By the statement on its own, Failed Ritual SS Goku>=SS Vegito, which is less than Super Saiyan God.

Also I believe that this SS from the failed ritual≠ God's Crimson Radiance (as the wiki calls it) SS Goku. A Super Saiyan with most of SSG's power absorbed.

I see, that's fair. And how strong do you think Goku would've gotten in SSG if they didn't get the ritual wrong. Like, SSG on top of his regular self. Enough to still entertaing Beerus?

Also, did he get to keep that friendship boost? or it faded away like after M8?

[Grand Marshal 1]

The failed ritual was stated to still be a considerable boost in Goku's power. I consider it the classic 'friends give you power to overcome any power ceiling from before' type of thing. That's what Goku did against Og Broly in movie 8 and when he did it in GT, he even got a name for the form 'Ultra Full Power SS4'. So this is like the Broly movie an 'Ultra Full Power SS' but better (more Saiyans).

By the statement on its own, Failed Ritual SS Goku>=SS Vegito, which is less than Super Saiyan God.

Also I believe that this SS from the failed ritual≠ God's Crimson Radiance (as the wiki calls it) SS Goku. A Super Saiyan with most of SSG's power absorbed.

I see, that's fair. And how strong do you think Goku would've gotten in SSG if they didn't get the ritual wrong. Like, SSG on top of his regular self. Enough to still entertaing Beerus?

Also, did he get to keep that friendship boost? or it faded away like after M8?

I still want to believe that even after all these debates over the years, BoG was a temporary scale-up in power. But at the same time, Goku did keep some power for himself.

The friendship boost is a way to make the power donated to the character as something big. Like, in GT the guys who powered up Goku (even the sum of their powers) was absolutely nothing in the face of Omega. But Goku did overcome his non-Super form with that boost.

As for SSG itself, I believe that the failed ritual didn't drain any power off the Godly form. It was just a failed attempt. Since the God ritual in itself is beyond the concept of power and energy donation (unlike the other 3 examples I mentioned).

So the friendship boost faded, but some of SSG's power remained. He didn't fully absorb it tho.