Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

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Koitsukai
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Fri Jul 03, 2020 12:19 am

Xeno Goku Black wrote:
Thu Jul 02, 2020 8:01 pm
It's when people start making math equations out of it is when I lose interest.

Moro doesn't sound seem as strong as Broly or Jiren just yet at least.
How so? he did handle SSB without even flinching, and defeated Omen Goku in just a few seconds when he went for it. SSBE Vegeta, stated to have surpassed Goku, also couldn't deal damage. And now he has become even stronger.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Fri Jul 03, 2020 7:12 am

This new Moro pretty much one-shotted current Vegeta, something I don’t see Jiren or Broly accomplishing with such ease, even if they could both take on Ultra Instinct sign. I’m inclined to think he is at least on their league, if not stronger.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Grand Marshal 1 » Fri Jul 03, 2020 7:52 am

Since SFP/LB Jiren didn't exist in the Manga in the same sense, I would say that Prime Moro is at the very least above FP Jiren. FPSS Broly is somewhat below FP Jiren for me, so it's out of the question whether Moro can defeat him (yes, I know even if that's not the case cause Toriyama says the next villain is strongest etc. Etc. :yawn:).

But if we take into account SFP Jiren, I think Moro need a bit more strength to defeat him. But he definitely pushes FP Jiren there and competes. I just don't see Moro exactly on that MUI tier yet. Which isn't far away, but half a step above.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Dragon Wukong » Fri Jul 03, 2020 11:10 am

Moro's current strength is most likely at least enough to go toe-to-toe with Jiren and last. Honestly, that's all the matters at this point. If they fight, all he'd have to do is grab Jiren's neck or last long enough to absorb his strength. Unlike Goku and Vegeta, Jiren doesn't have any kind of technique to deal with absorption.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Xeno Goku Black » Fri Jul 03, 2020 3:55 pm

Koitsukai wrote:
Fri Jul 03, 2020 12:19 am
How so? he did handle SSB without even flinching, and defeated Omen Goku in just a few seconds when he went for it. SSBE Vegeta, stated to have surpassed Goku, also couldn't deal damage. And now he has become even stronger.
Yeah but that's still nothing compared to Jiren or Broly.

Jiren was as strong as the proper Ultra Instinct Goku and Broly was said to be stronger than Beerus.

All Moro did was defeat the weaker Vegeta.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Grand Marshal 1 » Fri Jul 03, 2020 4:23 pm

Koitsukai wrote:
Fri Jul 03, 2020 12:19 am
Gohan and Kefla
I wouldn't say he lost power. But you said it pretty well. Kefla being below Perfected Blue. The reason I question his strength tho, is because with me scaling the Moro arc just a day ago, I can say with certainty that Elder Moro would probably defeat Gohan (God tier enemy). As in, he was knocked out when Kefla was. Was he hinted having trained since the ToP?

If no, then why wouldn't he be on the list with Daikaioshin to fight Moro? He should have mopped up the floor against Moro's goons on earth. Unless if we say that 7-3 actually absorbed a major portion of his strength.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Fri Jul 03, 2020 4:51 pm

Xeno Goku Black wrote:
Fri Jul 03, 2020 3:55 pm
Koitsukai wrote:
Fri Jul 03, 2020 12:19 am
How so? he did handle SSB without even flinching, and defeated Omen Goku in just a few seconds when he went for it. SSBE Vegeta, stated to have surpassed Goku, also couldn't deal damage. And now he has become even stronger.
Yeah but that's still nothing compared to Jiren or Broly.

Jiren was as strong as the proper Ultra Instinct Goku and Broly was said to be stronger than Beerus.

All Moro did was defeat the weaker Vegeta.
But how about power inflation? don't you agree they have become much stronger than before? not just because of time going by, but they just trained their asses off for months. SSBE Vegeta went from being weaker than Omen during the ToP to surpassing current Omen, even if it was the same Omen Goku, it is still a huge power up.
That already puts him above ToP Omen Goku, probably around the power Jiren used when Goku perfected UI. Then Jiren goes a little further to keep up when cornered, here I don't think Vegeta has reached just yet, but it's definitely a Vegeta that would make Jiren use all of his power even if Vegeta loses.
Grand Marshal 1 wrote:
Fri Jul 03, 2020 4:23 pm
Koitsukai wrote:
Fri Jul 03, 2020 12:19 am
Gohan and Kefla
I wouldn't say he lost power. But you said it pretty well. Kefla being below Perfected Blue. The reason I question his strength tho, is because with me scaling the Moro arc just a day ago, I can say with certainty that Elder Moro would probably defeat Gohan (God tier enemy). As in, he was knocked out when Kefla was. Was he hinted having trained since the ToP?

If no, then *why wouldn't he be on the list with Daikaioshin to fight Moro? He should have mopped up the floor against Moro's goons on earth. Unless if we say that 7-3 actually absorbed a major portion of his strength.
Yes, already during the first fights on Earth I think it was said he has been training, and then trained with Piccolo for 2 months.
The thing on Earth was that 7-3 used Piccolo's power and lost to Gohan, used Moro's power and absorbed their energy and 2 months later used Gohan's powers and lost.
I don't agree about Elder Moro beating Gohan, I mean yeah, his magic fucks everyone but blue up, but Vegeta with God was enough for the guy and Gohan we know took down a fusion that should be at least blue tier. Moro wins but I don't think because he is stronger.

Probably Gohan is now Perfect Blue level and Saganbo was strong enough to stomp that.

*Do you mean why the Galactic Patrol didn't recruit Gohan in the first place if he was that strong? nobody but Buu was, Merus went for magic instead of power. Or do you mean why Gohan fighting Moro wasn't even considered when he came to Earth? they knew Moro can't be fought with just power.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Thani » Fri Jul 03, 2020 7:18 pm

Dragon Wukong wrote:
Fri Jul 03, 2020 11:10 am
Moro's current strength is most likely at least enough to go toe-to-toe with Jiren and last. Honestly, that's all the matters at this point. If they fight, all he'd have to do is grab Jiren's neck or last long enough to absorb his strength. Unlike Goku and Vegeta, Jiren doesn't have any kind of technique to deal with absorption.
Well, Jiren has the sheer speed to keep up with Ultra Instinct. So there's that.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Dragon Wukong » Fri Jul 03, 2020 7:20 pm

Thani wrote:
Fri Jul 03, 2020 7:18 pm
Dragon Wukong wrote:
Fri Jul 03, 2020 11:10 am
Moro's current strength is most likely at least enough to go toe-to-toe with Jiren and last. Honestly, that's all the matters at this point. If they fight, all he'd have to do is grab Jiren's neck or last long enough to absorb his strength. Unlike Goku and Vegeta, Jiren doesn't have any kind of technique to deal with absorption.
Well, Jiren has the sheer speed to keep up with Ultra Instinct. So there's that.
Perhaps, but that was a concentrated effort where Ultra Instinct was autonomous. I wouldn't be surprised if Moro could grab his energy, especially since he also has the speed to keep up with at least Omen.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Thani » Fri Jul 03, 2020 7:50 pm

I don't think it matters. Whenever it was talked about what allowed UI to avoid Moro's energy absorption, it was always emphasized it's immense speed. At the very least, Moro can't tag UI with his magical absorption, so Jiren is also out of the table. But yes, if Moro could make sure that Jiren stops in his tracks, he can absorb his ki.

I was just pointing that, as far as counters go, Jiren kinda has one as well.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Fri Jul 03, 2020 10:23 pm

Xeno Goku Black wrote:
Thu Jul 02, 2020 8:01 pm
It's when people start making math equations out of it is when I lose interest.

Moro doesn't sound seem as strong as Broly or Jiren just yet at least.
Jiren did this against ToP SSB Goku


Moro did this against a massively stronger Goku than ToP SSB


Reaction of ToP UIO Goku after receiving a direct hit from Jiren

Reaction of a UIO Goku massively stronger than in ToP after receiving a direct hit from Moro

In addition, he labeled UIO Goku as '' weak '' and a fighter who was not able to match him

Moro is pretty much in Jiren's league
Thani wrote:
Fri Jul 03, 2020 7:50 pm
I don't think it matters. Whenever it was talked about what allowed UI to avoid Moro's energy absorption, it was always emphasized it's immense speed. At the very least, Moro can't tag UI with his magical absorption, so Jiren is also out of the table. But yes, if Moro could make sure that Jiren stops in his tracks, he can absorb his ki.

I was just pointing that, as far as counters go, Jiren kinda has one as well.
Well, Moro can use his magic to allow his attacks to hit Jiren. He did this against Goku and was able to land several hits

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Xeno Goku Black » Sat Jul 04, 2020 7:12 am

Koitsukai wrote:
Fri Jul 03, 2020 4:51 pm
But how about power inflation? don't you agree they have become much stronger than before? not just because of time going by, but they just trained their asses off for months. SSBE Vegeta went from being weaker than Omen during the ToP to surpassing current Omen, even if it was the same Omen Goku, it is still a huge power up.

That already puts him above ToP Omen Goku, probably around the power Jiren used when Goku perfected UI. Then Jiren goes a little further to keep up when cornered, here I don't think Vegeta has reached just yet, but it's definitely a Vegeta that would make Jiren use all of his power even if Vegeta loses.
Goku and Vegeta will definitely be more powerful than they were before in the same form but no way is the current Ultra Instinct Sign as strong as the Mastered Ultra Instinct from the Tournament of Power. That wouldn't make sense for a couple reasons.

Vegeta doesn't even appear to be as strong as the current Ultra Instinct Sign Goku either but even if he was he still won't be as strong as the proper Ultra Instinct that Jiren was able to match.

The newly powered up Moro could go either way yet because he only appeared for a few pages but as of yet there's no way he's as strong as Jiren or Broly. He's done nothing to suggest he'd hold his own against a Ultra Instinct Goku or Super Saiyan Blue Gogeta.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Xeno Goku Black » Sat Jul 04, 2020 7:17 am

TheSaiyanGod wrote:
Fri Jul 03, 2020 10:23 pm
Moro is pretty much in Jiren's league
Those are just comparisons with Sign Goku though.

Jiren withstood a point blank Kamehameha from Mastered Ultra Instinct Goku and wasn't really even that damaged. He wasn't even at full power at the time. After he powered up further then he was an equal match for Goku.

Moro prior to his new form was more in the league of the powered up Ultra Instinct Sign Goku.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Dragon Wukong » Sat Jul 04, 2020 11:17 am

Xeno Goku Black wrote:
Sat Jul 04, 2020 7:17 am
Those are just comparisons with Sign Goku though.

Jiren withstood a point blank Kamehameha from Mastered Ultra Instinct Goku and wasn't really even that damaged. He wasn't even at full power at the time. After he powered up further then he was an equal match for Goku.

Moro prior to his new form was more in the league of the powered up Ultra Instinct Sign Goku.
Well the question is, how much stronger is Ultra Instinct compared to Omen? Whis' explanation seems to be similar to the comparison between the full power of Super Saiyan Blue and "Perfected" Super Saiyan Blue, where the difference isn't in power but in sustainability. If Goku could have stayed in Ultra Instinct, he probably could've handled Moro (before his new form.) But the same is also true of Jiren, as Goku only lost because he dropped out of Ultra Instinct.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Grand Marshal 1 » Sat Jul 04, 2020 12:08 pm

Dragon Wukong wrote:
Sat Jul 04, 2020 11:17 am
Xeno Goku Black wrote:
Sat Jul 04, 2020 7:17 am
Those are just comparisons with Sign Goku though.

Jiren withstood a point blank Kamehameha from Mastered Ultra Instinct Goku and wasn't really even that damaged. He wasn't even at full power at the time. After he powered up further then he was an equal match for Goku.

Moro prior to his new form was more in the league of the powered up Ultra Instinct Sign Goku.
Well the question is, how much stronger is Ultra Instinct compared to Omen? Whis' explanation seems to be similar to the comparison between the full power of Super Saiyan Blue and "Perfected" Super Saiyan Blue, where the difference isn't in power but in sustainability. If Goku could have stayed in Ultra Instinct, he probably could've handled Moro (before his new form.) But the same is also true of Jiren, as Goku only lost because he dropped out of Ultra Instinct.
Imo, Complete Ultra Instinct, is 3 times stronger than Omen. In aspects such as strength, speed etc. Plus the completion of the ability. But as you said too, it's a form with a great burden if you haven't been trained to use it.

And seeing how Goku handled Omen and its power stressed version, I think he is far from attaining mastery over the form.

For a scale I would say : MUI (ToP) > FP Jiren (manga Jiren is kinda wack to scale, so Moro can defeat him, but Jiren can put up a better fight against MUI) ≈ Prime Moro ≈ 7-Moro-3 > Omen (Moro, power stressed) > Omen (Moro) ≈ Blue Evo (Spirit Control) > Omen (ToP) > Blue Evo (ToP)
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Sat Jul 04, 2020 12:23 pm

The recent chapter makes very clear that 73 Moro is stronger than Prime Moro (by Goku’s words) and SSBE Vegeta is stronger than UIS Goku (Moro, Goku, Vegeta and Piccolo all agree about this). I don’t understand the reluctance in accepting it, since Goku will probably surpass Vegeta and Moro in the next chapters.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Dragon Wukong » Sat Jul 04, 2020 12:26 pm

Grand Marshal 1 wrote:
Sat Jul 04, 2020 12:08 pm
Imo, Complete Ultra Instinct, is 3 times stronger than Omen. In aspects such as strength, speed etc. Plus the completion of the ability. But as you said too, it's a form with a great burden if you haven't been trained to use it.
Got a source for this "3 times stronger?"

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Grand Marshal 1 » Sat Jul 04, 2020 12:27 pm

Hugo Boss wrote:
Sat Jul 04, 2020 12:23 pm
The recent chapter makes very clear that 73 Moro is stronger than Prime Moro (by Goku’s words) and SSBE Vegeta is stronger than UIS Goku (Moro, Goku, Vegeta and Piccolo all agree about this). I don’t understand the reluctance in accepting it, since Goku will probably surpass Vegeta and Moro in the next chapters.
The only information we have is that 7-Moro-3 may be more powerful. Unless we see it how can we be sure?

Again, Vegeta is at the very least comparable to Goku, but he probably doesn't have more strength that power stressed Omen. He simply performs better against Moro due to Spirit Fission.

This is an instance where strength isn't comparable to performance, unlike in the ToP with Jiren.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Grand Marshal 1 » Sat Jul 04, 2020 12:30 pm

Dragon Wukong wrote:
Sat Jul 04, 2020 12:26 pm
Grand Marshal 1 wrote:
Sat Jul 04, 2020 12:08 pm
Imo, Complete Ultra Instinct, is 3 times stronger than Omen. In aspects such as strength, speed etc. Plus the completion of the ability. But as you said too, it's a form with a great burden if you haven't been trained to use it.
Got a source for this "3 times stronger?"
Based on what I have scaled in the ToP. It is based on anime data, but I believe it can apply to the Manga too. Omen was comparable to Supressed Jiren, who, as we know is strong enough to take on the likes of a KK×20 Blue Spirit Bomb and come at the tops, applying more or less the same effort with 1st Omen. 3rd Omen is strong enough to push his Full Power back, when KK×20 Goku Blue and Blue Evo Vegeta kinda couldn't.

That's about it. It depends on how you scale it.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Sat Jul 04, 2020 2:02 pm

Xeno Goku Black wrote:
Sat Jul 04, 2020 7:17 am
TheSaiyanGod wrote:
Fri Jul 03, 2020 10:23 pm
Moro is pretty much in Jiren's league
Those are just comparisons with Sign Goku though.

Jiren withstood a point blank Kamehameha from Mastered Ultra Instinct Goku and wasn't really even that damaged. He wasn't even at full power at the time. After he powered up further then he was an equal match for Goku.

Moro prior to his new form was more in the league of the powered up Ultra Instinct Sign Goku.
Moro is above the league of UIO Goku and SSBE Vegeta. He left the fight against Goku without any scratch, said that the full extent of Goku's power was not enough to defeat him, and labeled him as an opponent who was weak and was unable to match him. And we're talking about a Goku that is 2 arcs ahead of what Jiren faced, having become "stronger than ever" after the fight against Broly (according to Toyo) and trained intensely for 6 months with an angel.

Current UIO may not be as strong as ToP MUI, but he is probably around that level considering how surprised Whis was at Goku's growth (having already seen MUI). Which consequently escalates Moro to a higher level too (in my view, stronger than Jiren)
Hugo Boss wrote:
Sat Jul 04, 2020 12:23 pm
I don’t understand the reluctance in accepting it, since Goku will probably surpass Vegeta and Moro in the next chapters.
Honestly, people should have expected that Vegeta would become so strong since Goku obtained the ability to use the UIO at will. It was obvious that he would need not only a technique to beat Moro, but also raw power to be able to use it correctly against an enemy even stronger than Goku. So I don't understand the surprise of some people with this
Grand Marshal 1 wrote:
Sat Jul 04, 2020 12:27 pm

Again, Vegeta is at the very least comparable to Goku, but he probably doesn't have more strength that power stressed Omen. He simply performs better against Moro due to Spirit Fission.
Merus said that Goku was not able to manifest most of the Ultra Instinct's strength by stressing the transformation. So I don't see power stressed Omen above regular Omen. It was just a way for Goku to gain more strength for a short period of time, as he had no more power left.

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