Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Tue Jul 14, 2020 1:56 pm

emperior wrote:
Tue Jul 14, 2020 4:51 am

Manga
While in the manga (Broly movie, for facilitating comparison) it’s much easier to scale Beerus:
• SSG: 60% of Beerus
• SSB (Average Power): 70% of Beerus
• Mastered SSB: 75% of Beerus
• SSB Evolution: 85% of Beerus
• UI Omen: 90% of Beerus
• UI: 110% of Beerus
The assumptions are that Goku and Vegeta do not undergo through major improvements, aside from their new transformations, since Goku fights with Beerus in Battle of Gods. Therefore it’s possible that Toyotaro has tried to stay as close as possible to the original 6-10-15 scale from Toriyama.
Basically Battle of Gods Goku may actually be a 55% of Beerus’ power, or slightly more, but at their level of power even a mere 1% increase would be a lot.
Mastered SSB would be already quite close to Beerus as Vegeta managed to land a punch in his brief fight with Beerus, and Goku tried to overcharge SSB in a desperate attempt to surpass Jiren.
And SSB Evolution wouldn’t be too inferior to UI Omen, as Jiren compared Vegeta’s power to it.
Right now, with the recent manga’s developments, Evolution may actually be a bit more than 90% of Beerus (maybe 92-93%), so extremely close, while Omen would still be around 90%.
I firmly stand behind this. It works because SSG in the manga is treated as such, the first 2 non-retelling arcs rely heavily on SSG. Hit is below that, Black Rose is bested by it, Zamasu can't even see it coming. The power implication from BoG is still there in the manga, at least until Potara earrings stepped in, and The ToP dropped the form's relevance entirely.

Although I would be more lenient with current Evolved Blue and Omen. I think manga's 3rd Omen is a big improvement of the 2nd one from the ToP. I would say current Omen 93%(94% with blue aura), and Evolved Blue 96%. Unless they are planning to retcon Beerus again in the following chapters.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Tue Jul 14, 2020 2:09 pm

Doesn't the existence of SSB Vegito throw a big wrench in the more conservative estimations for the manga's scaling?

I mean, he's a FUSION whose base form was demonstrably close to that god-level, AND THEN he can turn SSB on top of that. And yet it's still in contention whether or not he's on/below/above Beerus's level while charging his most powerful attack back in that arc.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Tue Jul 14, 2020 3:08 pm

Beerus is scaled by the plot. No one in the dialogue concerning Beerus was ever compared or stated to be stronger.
The narration only questions/guesses if there is even a contrast to begin with. That's how mysterious his power is.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Tue Jul 14, 2020 3:31 pm

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:
Tue Jul 14, 2020 2:09 pm
Doesn't the existence of SSB Vegito throw a big wrench in the more conservative estimations for the manga's scaling?

I mean, he's a FUSION whose base form was demonstrably close to that god-level, AND THEN he can turn SSB on top of that. And yet it's still in contention whether or not he's on/below/above Beerus's level while charging his most powerful attack back in that arc.
Yeah, it does, probably why it was never meant to make an appearence and is even more fan-service than in the anime where his deletion would not be as seamless as in the manga. Although behind base Vegito there are too many assumptions, and as much as inconsistent writing. Eating a senzu after Perfect-Celling Zamasu in base just brings even more question marks, but that wasn't much of a feat, tired regular blue Goku opened up a hole on Zamasu too.
The thing is -headcanon alert- that we never saw in which form Vegito attacked Zamasu to deal blue level of damage, maybe he used some SS form to the max, reverted to base and needed a senzu afterwards. Or maybe not, I'm just trying to think outside the box, the box being an injured base Vegito at blue level.

But yeah, at least Vegito's FP rivals Beerus. Well, rivalled like 3 years ago. Perhaps blue fusion's multiplier isn't the same as for regular people? it would certainly explain Gogeta and Vegito's SSB without making them closer to angel tier.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by emperior » Tue Jul 14, 2020 3:58 pm

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:
Tue Jul 14, 2020 2:09 pm
Doesn't the existence of SSB Vegito throw a big wrench in the more conservative estimations for the manga's scaling?

I mean, he's a FUSION whose base form was demonstrably close to that god-level, AND THEN he can turn SSB on top of that. And yet it's still in contention whether or not he's on/below/above Beerus's level while charging his most powerful attack back in that arc.
In my manga scaling to Beerus I would have, by Broly:
• SSG: 60% of Beerus
• SSB (Average Power): 70% of Beerus
• Mastered SSB: 75% of Beerus
• SSB Evolution: 85% of Beerus
• UI Omen: 90% of Beerus
• UI: 110% of Beerus

• Rage Broly: 75% of Beerus
• SS Broly: 95% of Beerus
• FP Broly: 105% of Beerus

• Base Gogeta: 80% of Beerus
• SS1 Gogeta: 100% of Beerus
• SSB Gogeta: 120% of Beerus

With SSB Gogeta = SSB Vegetto (of course they would both be weaker than this in FT arc).
Basically the scale is much more narrow going by these numbers, so there’s no fixed multiplier for transformations. Each transformation just makes the fighter more powerful by a certain percentage and that’s it.
I honestly think it makes more sense and is probably more in-line with how Toriyama and Toyotaro see things when they write the fights. And this way there’s no Kaioken complicating things.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Grand Marshal 1 » Tue Jul 14, 2020 4:02 pm

emperior wrote:
Tue Jul 14, 2020 3:58 pm
PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:
Tue Jul 14, 2020 2:09 pm
Doesn't the existence of SSB Vegito throw a big wrench in the more conservative estimations for the manga's scaling?

I mean, he's a FUSION whose base form was demonstrably close to that god-level, AND THEN he can turn SSB on top of that. And yet it's still in contention whether or not he's on/below/above Beerus's level while charging his most powerful attack back in that arc.
In my manga scaling to Beerus I would have, by Broly:
• SSG: 60% of Beerus
• SSB (Average Power): 70% of Beerus
• Mastered SSB: 75% of Beerus
• SSB Evolution: 85% of Beerus
• UI Omen: 90% of Beerus
• UI: 110% of Beerus

• Rage Broly: 75% of Beerus
• SS Broly: 95% of Beerus
• FP Broly: 105% of Beerus

• Base Gogeta: 80% of Beerus
• SS1 Gogeta: 100% of Beerus
• SSB Gogeta: 120% of Beerus

With SSB Gogeta = SSB Vegetto (of course they would both be weaker than this in FT arc).
Basically the scale is much more narrow going by these numbers, so there’s no fixed multiplier for transformations. Each transformation just makes the fighter more powerful by a certain percentage and that’s it.
I honestly think it makes more sense and is probably more in-line with how Toriyama and Toyotaro see things when they write the fights.
I agree. Scrap multipliers, they ain't worth nothing.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Tue Jul 14, 2020 4:33 pm

I dunno, the manga presumably still uses the Broly movie, and in that one the likes of Gogeta and Broly FAR exceeded what we saw of SSB Goku and Vegeta. Like, Super Saiyan on top of that level STARTING OUT.

AND THEN GOING SSB ON TOP OF THAT.

There's just no real way using the manga AND movie to have such small differences, if only because it's been firmly established how gigantic of a leap Fusions are and how it's not even clear if they're enough to take on Beerus.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by miguelnuva1 » Tue Jul 14, 2020 4:54 pm

Miracles wrote:
Tue Jul 14, 2020 11:13 am
miguelnuva1 wrote:
Tue Jul 14, 2020 7:12 am
Gogeta was not forced to go Blue, he went Blue to make sure Broly couldn't keep up and to get the kill quick.

If you notice Broly punches him in full power and it doesn't hurt SS Gogeta.
Even when Gogeta went Blue the fight didn't end quickly. It took time and energy to subdue Broly.
We don't know how long Gogeta's fusion lasted. Remember what ssj3 did to fusion and what Blue did to Potara before. All we know is Broly couldn't touch Gogeta and Gogeta could tag him at will with little effort.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by The Undying » Tue Jul 14, 2020 5:09 pm

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:
Tue Jul 14, 2020 2:09 pm
And yet it's still in contention whether or not he's on/below/above Beerus's level while charging his most powerful attack back in that arc.
Why would that be in contention?

Dialogue isn't just thrown into a story to pull everyone's legs without the faintest indication that the author intended some kind of prank on the readers. Why would Shin have suggested it from an authorial perspective if not to push the audience in that direction?

Even the recent V Jump guide specifically confirms that Vegito surpasses Beerus. I have no idea why people think this is up for debate.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Tue Jul 14, 2020 5:11 pm

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:
Tue Jul 14, 2020 6:38 am
Easy solution to the Gogeta debate above.

Ikari Broly turns Super Saiyan and gains the boost of Super Saiyan on top of the form which was already equal to SSB.

Gogeta turns Super Saiyan and is equal to Super Saiyan Broly.

Ergo, Gogeta's base form is equal to SSB. Simple as that. Of course, there's also plenty of other supporting evidence like Gogeta blocking A LOT of blasts from Broly like SSB Goku AND was still flying away instead of being rooted to one spot like Goku was. Gogeta was also simply outpacing Broly just as well if not better than Goku and Vegeta.

Something else to bear in mind is that Goku and Vegeta only traded blows with Broly when they fought together; neither of them fought him alone when he became a Super Saiyan.
Ikari Broly was not equal to Blue though.

Blue Goku was damaged a bit and still outperformed him enougjh for Freeza to know he would lose.

I would say Ikari Broly was a 8 to Blue Goku's 10.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Tue Jul 14, 2020 5:20 pm

ZombieVito wrote:
Tue Jul 14, 2020 5:11 pm
PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:
Tue Jul 14, 2020 6:38 am
Easy solution to the Gogeta debate above.

Ikari Broly turns Super Saiyan and gains the boost of Super Saiyan on top of the form which was already equal to SSB.

Gogeta turns Super Saiyan and is equal to Super Saiyan Broly.

Ergo, Gogeta's base form is equal to SSB. Simple as that. Of course, there's also plenty of other supporting evidence like Gogeta blocking A LOT of blasts from Broly like SSB Goku AND was still flying away instead of being rooted to one spot like Goku was. Gogeta was also simply outpacing Broly just as well if not better than Goku and Vegeta.

Something else to bear in mind is that Goku and Vegeta only traded blows with Broly when they fought together; neither of them fought him alone when he became a Super Saiyan.
Ikari Broly was not equal to Blue though.

Blue Goku was damaged a bit and still outperformed him enougjh for Freeza to know he would lose.

I would say Ikari Broly was a 8 to Blue Goku's 10.
Putting Ikari Broly as equal to SSB Goku is for simplicity's sake. The 2 trade blows relatively evenly, and neither is really sweating it by the time Broly becomes a Super Saiyan. It also just makes more sense to me, seeing as how base Gogeta performed similar to SSB Goku against SS Broly.

Super Saiyan equal to Super Saiyan, base form to base form, etc.

It just makes everything simpler and works well enough with what's seen anyways. Too many minute differences, you lose the simplicity and ease of comparing characters.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by miguelnuva1 » Tue Jul 14, 2020 5:27 pm

The Undying wrote:
Tue Jul 14, 2020 5:09 pm
PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:
Tue Jul 14, 2020 2:09 pm
And yet it's still in contention whether or not he's on/below/above Beerus's level while charging his most powerful attack back in that arc.
Why would that be in contention?

Dialogue isn't just thrown into a story to pull everyone's legs without the faintest indication that the author intended some kind of prank on the readers. Why would Shin have suggested it from an authorial perspective if not to push the audience in that direction?

Even the recent V Jump guide specifically confirms that Vegito surpasses Beerus. I have no idea why people think this is up for debate.
The V jump scan says Vegito Blue rivals Beerus.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by The Undying » Tue Jul 14, 2020 5:45 pm

miguelnuva1 wrote:
Tue Jul 14, 2020 5:27 pm
The V jump scan says Vegito Blue rivals Beerus.
You're right about that. Looking back at Cipher's translation, the scan says that Vegetto rivals Beerus in power.

Still, there wouldn't be an explicit comparison between these two if not to lead the audience to the conclusion that such a fusion was already potentially surpassing Beerus back in the Future Trunks arc. Goku said the same of Broly in a story where Gogeta was comfortably stronger than Broly, so I can't see a lot of room for interpretation on that front.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Tue Jul 14, 2020 6:31 pm

The crux of the whole thing is that it takes SSB Fusions to reliably be considered possibly stronger than Beerus, which is an absolutely MASSIVE jump from regular SSB Goku and Vegeta even after they've been getting stronger.

Seriously, there's plenty of evidence to suggest that the boost from Fusion is actually HIGHER, proportionately speaking, than it was back when it was first used against Gohan-Buu rather than lower. That'd mark it as an even greater leap of strength from the fusees. And if this is the level one needs to be at/above the God of Destruction range that Beerus rests in, there's really no way for Goku and Vegeta to be anywhere close without the right forms.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Tue Jul 14, 2020 6:36 pm

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:
Tue Jul 14, 2020 6:31 pm
The crux of the whole thing is that it takes SSB Fusions to reliably be considered possibly stronger than Beerus, which is an absolutely MASSIVE jump from regular SSB Goku and Vegeta even after they've been getting stronger.

Seriously, there's plenty of evidence to suggest that the boost from Fusion is actually HIGHER, proportionately speaking, than it was back when it was first used against Gohan-Buu rather than lower. That'd mark it as an even greater leap of strength from the fusees. And if this is the level one needs to be at/above the God of Destruction range that Beerus rests in, there's really no way for Goku and Vegeta to be anywhere close without the right forms.
It also makes UI's boost even bigger than it probably was meant to be. I agree with Emperior and Grand Marshall on this one, probably for fusions the multipliers are different, lower. Current Evolved Blue Gogeta should be on Daishinkan's realm if that isn't the case.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Dragon Wukong » Tue Jul 14, 2020 7:24 pm

Koitsukai wrote:
Tue Jul 14, 2020 1:56 pm
emperior wrote:
Tue Jul 14, 2020 4:51 am

Manga
While in the manga (Broly movie, for facilitating comparison) it’s much easier to scale Beerus:
• SSG: 60% of Beerus
• SSB (Average Power): 70% of Beerus
• Mastered SSB: 75% of Beerus
• SSB Evolution: 85% of Beerus
• UI Omen: 90% of Beerus
• UI: 110% of Beerus
The assumptions are that Goku and Vegeta do not undergo through major improvements, aside from their new transformations, since Goku fights with Beerus in Battle of Gods. Therefore it’s possible that Toyotaro has tried to stay as close as possible to the original 6-10-15 scale from Toriyama.
Basically Battle of Gods Goku may actually be a 55% of Beerus’ power, or slightly more, but at their level of power even a mere 1% increase would be a lot.
Mastered SSB would be already quite close to Beerus as Vegeta managed to land a punch in his brief fight with Beerus, and Goku tried to overcharge SSB in a desperate attempt to surpass Jiren.
And SSB Evolution wouldn’t be too inferior to UI Omen, as Jiren compared Vegeta’s power to it.
Right now, with the recent manga’s developments, Evolution may actually be a bit more than 90% of Beerus (maybe 92-93%), so extremely close, while Omen would still be around 90%.
I firmly stand behind this. It works because SSG in the manga is treated as such, the first 2 non-retelling arcs rely heavily on SSG. Hit is below that, Black Rose is bested by it, Zamasu can't even see it coming. The power implication from BoG is still there in the manga, at least until Potara earrings stepped in, and The ToP dropped the form's relevance entirely.

Although I would be more lenient with current Evolved Blue and Omen. I think manga's 3rd Omen is a big improvement of the 2nd one from the ToP. I would say current Omen 93%(94% with blue aura), and Evolved Blue 96%. Unless they are planning to retcon Beerus again in the following chapters.
It's telling that Goku and Vegeta said training for 3 years in the HTC wouldn't make them stronger in the manga. Which implies that the main way they get stronger is via transformations, rather than improvements in base form. (It is noted in the latest arc that Goku's "Super Saiyan Blue" got stronger now. But it can be inferred it's still a relatively minor increase, or indeed, it's possible Goku managed to improve his Super Saiyan Blue state and is closer to achieving Vegeta's form.)

As for fusion, has it ever really been a point of contention? I mean, Broly is implied to be on the same level of Beerus, yet SSB Gogeta MASSIVELY overpowers him. I really wouldn't be surprised if SSG was all that was needed to put Gogeta/Vegit above Beerus. The only thing we know for sure is SS3 wouldn't be enough, and SSB goes above, but the gap between godly and non-godly forms is massive anyhow.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by miguelnuva1 » Tue Jul 14, 2020 8:13 pm

UI being a boost to fusion makes sense as Ssj4's boost was compared to Potara's power.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Xeno Goku Black » Tue Jul 14, 2020 10:09 pm

I just saw this.

"I actually imagined including scenes of them fighting in space, and to make an homage to Broli disappearing into the sun by having them fight on the sun’s surface, or having them fight inside the Earth itself, but in the end there just wasn’t enough runtime!"

Even though it didn't actually happen I suppose it doesn't mean that has as far as the writers are concerned the characters are so powerful and tough that they can even withstand the direct close proximity heat of the sun.

That's like a whole impressive unseen feat in itself.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Tue Jul 14, 2020 10:40 pm

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:
Tue Jul 14, 2020 5:20 pm
Putting Ikari Broly as equal to SSB Goku is for simplicity's sake. The 2 trade blows relatively evenly, and neither is really sweating it by the time Broly becomes a Super Saiyan. It also just makes more sense to me, seeing as how base Gogeta performed similar to SSB Goku against SS Broly.

Super Saiyan equal to Super Saiyan, base form to base form, etc.

It just makes everything simpler and works well enough with what's seen anyways. Too many minute differences, you lose the simplicity and ease of comparing characters.
But for Freeza to decide to end the fight does tell us they really weren't equal. A tired Goku had the advantage.

There also are too many variables between base Gogeta and Broly. We don't know if the latter got stronger by fighting Freeza and we also don't know if the former was really on par with Ikari Broly in base since he just evaded the attacks with a real fight head on. Hell, we don't really even know if Ikari and Super Saiyan stack.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Wed Jul 15, 2020 12:46 am

miguelnuva1 wrote:
Tue Jul 14, 2020 4:54 pm
Miracles wrote:
Tue Jul 14, 2020 11:13 am
miguelnuva1 wrote:
Tue Jul 14, 2020 7:12 am
Gogeta was not forced to go Blue, he went Blue to make sure Broly couldn't keep up and to get the kill quick.

If you notice Broly punches him in full power and it doesn't hurt SS Gogeta.
Even when Gogeta went Blue the fight didn't end quickly. It took time and energy to subdue Broly.
We don't know how long Gogeta's fusion lasted. Remember what ssj3 did to fusion and what Blue did to Potara before. All we know is Broly couldn't touch Gogeta and Gogeta could tag him at will with little effort.
I wouldn't call Blue Gogeta; screaming, throwing out heavy focused ki attacks and multiple punches/kicks, a little effort or a quick kill.

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