Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Hugo Boss
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Thu Jul 16, 2020 9:29 am

Considering what the Oracle Fish said and that Goku and Vegeta have different levels right now, they are still not opponents for manga Beerus. It will happen when all 3 have about the same level.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Dragon Wukong » Thu Jul 16, 2020 9:43 am

Hugo Boss wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 9:29 am
Considering what the Oracle Fish said and that Goku and Vegeta have different levels right now, they are still not opponents for manga Beerus. It will happen when all 3 have about the same level.
The Oracle Fish made that statement before the Tournament of Power. I wouldn't be surprised at all if Goku and Vegeta have reached a point where they could say they "rival Beerus" now.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by BWri » Thu Jul 16, 2020 2:49 pm

Dragon Wukong wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 9:43 am
Hugo Boss wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 9:29 am
Considering what the Oracle Fish said and that Goku and Vegeta have different levels right now, they are still not opponents for manga Beerus. It will happen when all 3 have about the same level.
The Oracle Fish made that statement before the Tournament of Power. I wouldn't be surprised at all if Goku and Vegeta have reached a point where they could say they "rival Beerus" now.
It's doubtful. Beerus is still the measuring stick. Vegeta wasn't even close the last time they had a battle.
Big fan of the characters of Dragon Ball, all of them, especially formerly prominent sub-characters. -__-

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Xeno Goku Black » Thu Jul 16, 2020 6:38 pm

The only time Goku ever rivalled Beerus was when he went Ultra Instinct for real. Otherwise neither him or Vegeta are on his level.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Thu Jul 16, 2020 7:07 pm

Dragon Wukong wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 9:43 am
Hugo Boss wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 9:29 am
Considering what the Oracle Fish said and that Goku and Vegeta have different levels right now, they are still not opponents for manga Beerus. It will happen when all 3 have about the same level.
The Oracle Fish made that statement before the Tournament of Power. I wouldn't be surprised at all if Goku and Vegeta have reached a point where they could say they "rival Beerus" now.
If Goku rivals Beerus right now, Vegeta is stronger than them, which doesn’t line up well with what the Oracle Fish said. It implies that at some point in the future those 3 will be equally matched.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Dragon Wukong » Thu Jul 16, 2020 7:28 pm

Hugo Boss wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 7:07 pm
If Goku rivals Beerus right now, Vegeta is stronger than them, which doesn’t line up well with what the Oracle Fish said. It implies that at some point in the future those 3 will be equally matched.
Vegeta (most likely anyhow) isn't stronger than Goku, but his technique very likely would let him measure up to Beerus. Unlike against Ultra Instinct, Vegeta can land hits on Beerus and sap his energy.
BWri wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 2:49 pm
It's doubtful. Beerus is still the measuring stick. Vegeta wasn't even close the last time they had a battle.
The last time Beerus was a measuring stick was with Broly, who's very likely outright stronger. And while Beerus shot down Vegeta last time, Vegeta did manage to land a noticeable blow to Beerus' face that angered him. (Mind you, the difference between two powers does not have to be particularly massive for one character to one-shot another.)

And you're missing the point that ever since that fight, Vegeta achieved further strength through greater mastery of Blue, and learned a technique that can drain one's power through physical contact. (And not just absorptions, as seen during his training with Pybara.)

Ultimately, it's actually likely all three of them rival one another in some way at this point. It's possible Beerus has Goku beat in pure strength even in Ultra Instinct Sign, but Goku's technique might win out. And Vegeta's ability to drain his energy might win in a fight against Beerus at the very least, assuming he can't hit Goku.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by miguelnuva1 » Thu Jul 16, 2020 10:38 pm

Didn't Manga Beerus master UI sign? Even ifnGoku and Vegeta caught his full power he still has that form.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Xeno Goku Black » Fri Jul 17, 2020 2:53 am

So were expected to believe that everyone who matches or surpasses U6 Saga Base Goku would be drastically more powerful than Super Buu?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by FishermanJohnWest » Fri Jul 17, 2020 3:33 am

Goku won't surpass Beerus until he masters UI, that's the way I am going to look at super from now on cause they protect Beerus way too much.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by FishermanJohnWest » Fri Jul 17, 2020 3:35 am

miguelnuva1 wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 10:38 pm
Didn't Manga Beerus master UI sign? Even ifnGoku and Vegeta caught his full power he still has that form.
it was said he hasn't fully mastered UI

Image

And he shown UI when he dodged 5 Gods at the same time. Until Goku masters UI, he won't be surpassing Beerus by the looks of it

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Fri Jul 17, 2020 6:50 am

Dragon Wukong wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 7:28 pm
Hugo Boss wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 7:07 pm
If Goku rivals Beerus right now, Vegeta is stronger than them, which doesn’t line up well with what the Oracle Fish said. It implies that at some point in the future those 3 will be equally matched.
Vegeta (most likely anyhow) isn't stronger than Goku, but his technique very likely would let him measure up to Beerus. Unlike against Ultra Instinct, Vegeta can land hits on Beerus and sap his energy.
I don’t understand why you still insist that Vegeta isn’t stronger than Goku or that Vegeta’s technique works on either Beerus or Goku. Toyotaro made very clear by almost the entire cast spelling out to us why Vegeta is stronger than Goku and how extensive his technique is (fusions/absorptions).

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Dragon Wukong » Fri Jul 17, 2020 10:05 am

Hugo Boss wrote:
Fri Jul 17, 2020 6:50 am
I don’t understand why you still insist that Vegeta isn’t stronger than Goku or that Vegeta’s technique works on either Beerus or Goku. Toyotaro made very clear by almost the entire cast spelling out to us why Vegeta is stronger than Goku and how extensive his technique is (fusions/absorptions).
For the first thing, because Vegeta was unable to inflict any physical damage to Moro until he removed his energy, which suggests a power lesser than that of Sign. And two, because while the technique is noted have the particular application of being great against fusions, we see Pybara using the technique on Vegeta to drain his energy, and we also also see Vegeta using the technique on a group of Hatska clones to drain their energy.

It's not like I'm making some kind of baseless accusation. Only a minority of people see what Vegeta had to do to defeat Moro and go "Yeah, he's stronger than Goku now." when the only basis for that is Goku's dialogue about being one-upped by Vegeta this time. Which again, can just be referring to the fact he had a technique that could handle Moro where Goku failed, not necessarily a statement on power.

As for the technique, please, re-read the chapters where Vegeta is training on Yardrat. At no point is the technique said to only work on fusions/absorptions, and his training suggests otherwise. The technique just happens to be particularly effective against such opponents.

Think Devilmite beam in Tenkaichi. It's more effective against opponents that are literally made out of evil in that game, even though it's still effective to anyone without a "pure heart." You could say the same thing applies to Spirit Fission toward fusion/absorption based opponents, based off Vegeta's dialogue and what we saw in his training.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Grand Marshal 1 » Fri Jul 17, 2020 10:12 am

See I get what the issue is. A single statement. Moro saying that Vegeta will be his finest meal.

But that's where you can argue that Headcanon comes into mix.

Does he actually mean that Vegeta has the energy, superior to Goku, to be his finest meal in quantity, or is it due to Moro building up an enemy relationship with Vegeta (who reflects on his past actions) that the former wishes for the latter to be defeated. Hense, the satisfaction of victory being superior to any other victory before.

As for Piccolo 'giving this one to Vegeta' it's clearly in reference to the outcome of the fight, not the means of achieving it.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Dragon Wukong » Fri Jul 17, 2020 10:34 am

Grand Marshal 1 wrote:
Fri Jul 17, 2020 10:12 am
See I get what the issue is. A single statement. Moro saying that Vegeta will be his finest meal.

But that's where you can argue that Headcanon comes into mix.

Does he actually mean that Vegeta has the energy, superior to Goku, to be his finest meal in quantity, or is it due to Moro building up an enemy relationship with Vegeta (who reflects on his past actions) that the former wishes for the latter to be defeated. Hense, the satisfaction of victory being superior to any other victory before.

As for Piccolo 'giving this one to Vegeta' it's clearly in reference to the outcome of the fight, not the means of achieving it.
Well you have to keep in mind, Moro wasn't able to devour Goku's energy before 17 and 18 stepped in. It's entirely possible that Vegeta would be Moro's "finest meal yet" because he simply hasn't been able to eat Goku's.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Grand Marshal 1 » Fri Jul 17, 2020 10:50 am

Dragon Wukong wrote:
Fri Jul 17, 2020 10:34 am
Grand Marshal 1 wrote:
Fri Jul 17, 2020 10:12 am
See I get what the issue is. A single statement. Moro saying that Vegeta will be his finest meal.

But that's where you can argue that Headcanon comes into mix.

Does he actually mean that Vegeta has the energy, superior to Goku, to be his finest meal in quantity, or is it due to Moro building up an enemy relationship with Vegeta (who reflects on his past actions) that the former wishes for the latter to be defeated. Hense, the satisfaction of victory being superior to any other victory before.

As for Piccolo 'giving this one to Vegeta' it's clearly in reference to the outcome of the fight, not the means of achieving it.
Well you have to keep in mind, Moro wasn't able to devour Goku's energy before 17 and 18 stepped in. It's entirely possible that Vegeta would be Moro's "finest meal yet" because he simply hasn't been able to eat Goku's.
Good observation.

Goku never utilized Omen before Moro in all the other battles they had, so I see this as a possibility.

Again, I stand by Vegeta = Goku in power

More or less they are on the same ground for different reasons.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Fri Jul 17, 2020 11:42 am

Neither Goku nor Vegeta were able to inflict any damage to Moro at full power... Moro actually discredited Goku’s attacks, while concluding he dragged that fight unnecessarily, since Goku was no real threat to him using only Sign. And he could devour his energy whenever he wanted, he even grabbed Goku with Sign activated. And he did the same thing to Vegeta, who despite having energy larger than Goku’s, couldn’t match his own.

Also, there is nothing to infer from isolated frames of training with no particular explanation of what was going on. The actual explanation comes from Vegeta, which goes in detail of how spirit fission works and in which kind of opponents it works. More importantly, if this technique had that generic application, it would go against what Vegeta defended, which was a fair one-on-one match.

So, it really is just that simple. Goku is kind of a competitive person. He wouldn’t tell that Vegeta is ahead of him, if Vegeta just had a Counter-Genkidama move. He wouldn’t imply he needs to train in order to surpass Vegeta, if Vegeta hadn’t a considerable powerlevel advantage right now.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Grand Marshal 1 » Fri Jul 17, 2020 1:03 pm

We may get some dual fighting action vs Moro, so I say we wait. We can't work with just one chapter of content. Things are still ambiguous, until proven otherwise. That includes 7-Moro-3's power too.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by miguelnuva1 » Fri Jul 17, 2020 2:42 pm

FishermanJohnWest wrote:
Fri Jul 17, 2020 3:35 am
miguelnuva1 wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 10:38 pm
Didn't Manga Beerus master UI sign? Even ifnGoku and Vegeta caught his full power he still has that form.
it was said he hasn't fully mastered UI

Image

And he shown UI when he dodged 5 Gods at the same time. Until Goku masters UI, he won't be surpassing Beerus by the looks of it
He hasn't mastered Ultra Instinct, he mastered Ultra Instinct Sign which is the form Goku uses with the black hair.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Dragon Wukong » Fri Jul 17, 2020 3:52 pm

Hugo Boss wrote:
Fri Jul 17, 2020 11:42 am
Neither Goku nor Vegeta were able to inflict any damage to Moro at full power... Moro actually discredited Goku’s attacks, while concluding he dragged that fight unnecessarily, since Goku was no real threat to him using only Sign. And he could devour his energy whenever he wanted, he even grabbed Goku with Sign activated. And he did the same thing to Vegeta, who despite having energy larger than Goku’s, couldn’t match his own.

Also, there is nothing to infer from isolated frames of training with no particular explanation of what was going on. The actual explanation comes from Vegeta, which goes in detail of how spirit fission works and in which kind of opponents it works. More importantly, if this technique had that generic application, it would go against what Vegeta defended, which was a fair one-on-one match.

So, it really is just that simple. Goku is kind of a competitive person. He wouldn’t tell that Vegeta is ahead of him, if Vegeta just had a Counter-Genkidama move. He wouldn’t imply he needs to train in order to surpass Vegeta, if Vegeta hadn’t a considerable powerlevel advantage right now.
What? Goku dealt damage to Moro plenty of times. Moro felt Goku wasn't a threat not because Ultra Instinct Sign couldn't damage him, but because he could see Goku wouldn't be able to maintain that level of power against him. Even at Moro's full power, Goku was still able to defeat him in an aura clash, and only started losing headway due to dropping in stamina and power, which is noted throughout the previous chapter. Compared to what Goku could do at full strength, everyone comments on Vegeta "not being able to deliver" and his attacks having "barely any effect" at the start of the fight. He didn't get stronger than Goku in Ultra Instinct Sign, he weakened Moro.

And they aren't just "isolated frames." The effect on Vegeta from Pybara using the technique on him (or Vegeta on Hatska) isn't different from the end effect on Moro. The technique separates one's energy from their body. Unless you can specifically point out the part to me where he says it can't be used on non-fusions/absorptions, I'm going to trust the prior chapters on this one. The attack being able to reduce an opponent's energy doesn't contradict his mentality if he doesn't go beyond that point against Moro anyhow, which serves to further humiliate the goat.

And to that end, I'll say it's simple. It's simply obvious to the average reader that Vegeta wasn't stronger than Goku in the previous chapter. Goku can still feel the need to train, and possibly devise his own technique to one-up Vegeta in the sense that Vegeta's technique did "surpass him" in this situation.

Seriously though, if you're going to say Vegeta is stronger I implore you to read the past 3 chapters and compare how Vegeta does at the start against Moro (before his energy is drained) to how well Goku fought against Moro (after Moro went full power, and before Goku's stamina ran out.)

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Fri Jul 17, 2020 5:50 pm

A simple story like Dragonball isn't trying to trick the audience. It's purpose is to keep it understandable.
It only gets complicated when fans try to give interpretations of what a statement meant. Or undermine dialogue with images.

Bottom line: Goku said he needs to surpass Vegeta.

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