Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

Moderators: Kanzenshuu Staff, General Help

User avatar
Magnificent Ponta
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 167
Joined: Mon Jul 20, 2020 2:25 pm
Location: Not on Tumblr, I guess

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Magnificent Ponta » Fri Jul 31, 2020 4:52 am

The Undying wrote:
Thu Jul 30, 2020 6:14 pm
I don't disagree that Vegeta referred to Blue's weakness in more general terms, but I'm placing particular emphasis on God-Blue because "complete" Blue is the only version of the form Vegeta singled out as a continuous use of its full power. If anything, that's what Vegeta specifically attributed as the main difference between itself and the incomplete version of SSGSS - it's distinguished from previous uses because it's continuous, not necessarily because it's stronger than the standard Blue when used as a bursting transformative attack.
Well, see, my point here is that if Vegeta is only referring to SSjB in general, then his own method of using the form doesn't really have much bearing on the question of what he's saying about SSjB's complete power - he's not necessarily making the same distinction that you're making here (or any kind of distinction, for that matter), he's just describing the means by which Goku has overcome a general weakness of the form - which is to "seal the overflowing power within his body". By describing this, Vegeta is then able to logically conclude that Goku can continuously harness the power when he couldn't before - if the power is leaching out in the aura, it naturally follows that SSjB's full power doesn't last long whichever position you take on the question. The main point is that Goku can now wield the power fully.

I guess our respective interpretations are at least partly a question of emphasis - I'm saying 'he's sealing the power, so he can continuously fight at 100%', whereas you're saying 'he's sealing the power, so he can continuously fight at 100%'. Maybe that's where this exchange ends up.
You mentioned the power trying to explode out of Goku during his fight with Fused Zamasu, but I think that's less symptomatic of any kind of "extra" strength and more related to the fact that neither Saiyan could contain that strength within them at the start; hence the whole need for Vegeta's God-Blue trick.
Well, if your position is that initial SSjB is so near to the power of Completed SSjB as to make no difference, then it follows that this self-same power, however briefly, is contained within their bodies, because that's what ki is - power latent within the body (albeit manipulated in various ways by the main characters); it can only be used if that's where it is kept. So, logically, there shouldn't be this much of a problem with holding power that he already is able to use in the form; sure, it might be a strain and an effort to maintain (like various SSj forms in the past have been said to be, though we've not really seen a visible consequence of it), but the explosive, damaging character of it indicates otherwise. We have to look to the 'overflowing' nature of the power to explain that most plausibly, which leads me to conclude the way I have.

If what I've said so far seems like too pedantic and sharp a set of distinctions from your perspective, then it may be helpful to bear in mind that the distinction I'm proposing is really, at base, just a functional one - namely, that the 'extra' power was already there, but in the aura rather than within his body, so by being able to keep all of it within, in practical terms he's a lot stronger than he was when he couldn't do that (and when he's unpractised at it, it is consequently damaging to him); so, the 'full power' is the 'extra power' I'm talking about. Perhaps 'extra' isn't a helpful word.
My reading of that example has always been that it lends to what I'm saying, actually. When Beerus blocks Vegeta's initial attack, Beerus remarks that the moment of impact was "indeed significant" and that it made his hand shake. If that punch connected to Beerus' face, I don't doubt it would have produced a similar effect as what happened when Vegeta finally did get a clean hit in his perfected state.
Firstly, even though Beerus calls the impact of the punch "magnificent" (and even if you don't see "My hand even shook a bit" as turning that into a backhanded compliment - it might be a genuine compliment), Beerus immediately then relativises this by saying it's "a mere power-up from Super Saiyan God". Moreover, from that point until Vegeta uses the Complete power, he can't touch Beerus no matter what he does (and he wasn't able to break his guard even at the outset, which is an important difference with what comes after). Importantly, It's only after he uses the complete power that he can put Beerus under pressure, and Beerus himself says he's improved.

This progression of events and statements, in my opinion, only really makes sense if there's an increase in usable power on Vegeta's part, rather than just using the power he initially shows.
Ultimately, any differences between the two would come down to God-Blue only enhancing attack power, whereas the completed Blue would enhance everything from attack power to speed and agility. That's why Fused Zamasu effortlessly blitzed Vegeta during their initial encounter, why Vegeta didn't bother even using God-Blue in that fight, and why Goku was able to keep up after absorbing the aura.
There's been more talk about this point since then, with various clarifications, so I just want to pick up on one specific detail here - Zamas2 doesn't blitz a God-Blue switching Vegeta; he blitzes SSjB Vegeta - Vegeta went from base to SSjB before rushing Zamas2. All the characteristics of Vegeta's Blue power should therefore be there, including speed, agility, and defensive capability, and basically undiminished, to boot. From this it should be clear that Zamas2 is just that much stronger than Vegeta.

User avatar
TheSaiyanGod
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1471
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2016 12:09 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Fri Jul 31, 2020 10:03 am

The Undying wrote:
Thu Jul 30, 2020 11:46 pm
TheSaiyanGod wrote:
Thu Jul 30, 2020 9:04 pm
The switch to Blue doesn't just increase attack power.
That's not really my point.

Goku specifically said that Vegeta only switches when he attacks. 100% Blue obviously doesn't just increase attack power, but God-Blue was devised for that express purpose. Only a perfected Blue affords the agility and movement speed that can be taken advantage of with continuous use.

Vegeta can't switch to Blue for dodging/speed if his opponent is fast enough to blitz him before he can react. Remember that this is instantaneous switching from God to Blue and back again, and Vegeta has to remain in a lower form to mitigate its leakage.

Moving around during a battle is a lot more time-consuming than just punching somebody for a split second. God-Blue doesn't accommodate that, which is why its primary focus is attack power.
Yeah, the main point of the God-Blue switch is to maximize the attack power of the SSB, I'm just saying that naturally when Vegeta changes to Blue, all its attributes increase as well. But it is also worth mentioning that Vegeta also became stronger during training on RoSaT, otherwise he would not be able to follow Black's attacks using the God form (when previously even with Blue he was defeated by Black's golden SSJ).

Anyway, in the manga we see that Zamasu defeats Vegeta easily even in the first seconds of the transformation.


And the fact that Vegeta doesn't even try the strategy previously used against Black to at least damage Zamasu also implies that even Blue's maximized power is not equal to what Completed Blue can offer, so he prefers the continued use of SSB.
At this point I agree with MagnificentPonta, the full potential of Super Saiyan Blue can only be achieved when the user seals the overflowing power of this transformation within the body. What the God-Blue switch tries to do is to get as close as possible to that power, but it fails because there is still the aura there.

User avatar
ZombieVito
I Live Here
Posts: 4487
Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2013 12:18 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Fri Jul 31, 2020 11:06 am

DBZ Macky wrote:
Fri Jul 31, 2020 3:36 am
SupremeKai25 wrote:
Thu Jul 30, 2020 3:30 pm
So what's up with Fused Zamasu threatening to destroy the entire galaxy? Is he only galaxy level in the manga :?:
It's just like how Buuhan in the Anime threatens Vegetto with a blast capable of destroying the planet when logically they should be able to destroy the Solar System like Cell.
I wouldn't look too much into it.
ZombieVito wrote:
Thu Jul 30, 2020 3:40 pm
It's Toyo man.

If it's not Goku or Vegeta, they are going to get nerfed compared to their anime counterparts.
Say no to Toyataro slander! The Manga did give us stuff like Gohan vs Kefla, so I don't think this is true.
Though I guess you could look at it from the angle of Kefla getting nerfed rather than Gohan getting buffed :think:
Lol.

Kefla vs Gohan sucked. Rushed and barely shown. Also Gohan was completely out of character on it.

User avatar
Dragon Wukong
Regular
Posts: 583
Joined: Mon Sep 09, 2013 1:06 am

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Dragon Wukong » Fri Jul 31, 2020 1:12 pm

ZombieVito wrote:
Fri Jul 31, 2020 11:06 am
Lol.

Kefla vs Gohan sucked. Rushed and barely shown. Also Gohan was completely out of character on it.
Whether the fight sucked or not it still made Gohan seem far stronger than anything he showed in the anime. As far as a response to you suggesting Toyotaro would nerf characters go, Gohan serves as a good counterexample. Another good counterexample would be Roshi. Keep in mind this is the "Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread". Not the "intricacies of character portrayal" or "was this fight good" thread.

As far as the completed SSB discussion goes, Undying is right. The only distinction made between Vegeta's God-Blue switching and Goku's Completed SSB is that the latter is continuous. Honestly, I get wanting to use the fact Goku was up against Fused Zamasu to make it seem as though it's an outright power-up, but the dialogue doesn't lie on this matter, and we can infer Fused Zamasu ultimately wasn't that much stronger than Black in the end.

As a note, keep in mind that, as has been pointed out in this thread in the past, a sudden gap between two fighters needn't be massive in order for one to dominate the other completely. It's entirely within the realm of possibility that Fused Zamasu wasn't that much stronger than Black and still dominated Vegeta, who had once in turn dominated Black. All it means is that the boost in strength (be it from Potara fusion or simply being able to maximize SSGSS's power output) was enough to create a meaningful gap past Vegeta again. Not necessarily an excessive gap.

User avatar
The Undying
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 271
Joined: Sun Dec 22, 2019 5:47 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by The Undying » Fri Jul 31, 2020 2:31 pm

Magnificent Ponta wrote:
Fri Jul 31, 2020 4:52 am
Well, see, my point here is that if Vegeta is only referring to SSjB in general, then his own method of using the form doesn't really have much bearing on the question of what he's saying about SSjB's complete power
I would say it absolutely has bearing on that question.

Vegeta's general phrasing should encompass everything that applies to the imperfect Blue. Remember that God-Blue is still just Blue's full attack power incorporated in an instantaneous burst; the only substantial difference between it and Goku's trick against Hit is that Vegeta instantly reverts to his previous form to keep that leakage further managed so he can use it multiple times in battle. The page Thani posted sums up my point rather well. Vegeta distinguishes completed Blue by saying "Blue's weakness is that its full power only lasts for a short while. He faced that weakness and overcame it." then says "He's continuously fighting at 100 percent."

Note that his distinction is "its full power only lasts for a short while", then he emphasizes that Goku overcame that weakness. He's pointing out that Goku can use the form continuously at full capacity now, but says absolutely nothing about it being stronger than incomplete Blue at its strongest -- if anything, he's saying that Blue's full power was in fact accessible but fleeting, that it's no longer fleeting for Goku, and that's why he perfected the form.

This is where I most strongly differ from the stance that completed Blue goes beyond what the standard Blue is ever capable of. That doesn't seem to be the implication at all here.
Magnificent Ponta wrote:
Fri Jul 31, 2020 4:52 am
We have to look to the 'overflowing' nature of the power to explain that most plausibly, which leads me to conclude the way I have.
My take has always been that the "overflowing" nature of Blue's power is why it drops so quickly for them, even in standard Blue, in the first place. Their trouble retaining that power within their bodies is why it leaks, and when Goku seals it, he can barely handle it at first. I think it's really just a matter of how we interpret some of these terms.

However, you might recall that Goku also described Vegeta's God-Blue switching as using Blue's "explosive" power for his attacks, so there's already some degree of overlap in the terminology used. For me that just further corroborates God-Blue also using 100% (or something very close to 100%) of its power.
Magnificent Ponta wrote:
Fri Jul 31, 2020 4:52 am
Beerus immediately then relativises this by saying it's "a mere power-up from Super Saiyan God". Moreover, from that point until Vegeta uses the Complete power, he can't touch Beerus no matter what he does
Blue in general is a mere power-up from Super Saiyan God. Beerus still wasn't serious until he was punched in the face, but I won't dwell too much on that point.

Performance-wise, their whole fight just looks like it boils down to Vegeta being able to more easily see Beerus' attacks coming so he can block/evade them and put more pressure on Beerus with his speed. Again, the complete Blue gives him a level of maneuverability that God-Blue doesn't provide, which is why Vegeta can make better use of that power now.
Magnificent Ponta wrote:
Fri Jul 31, 2020 4:52 am
There's been more talk about this point since then, with various clarifications, so I just want to pick up on one specific detail here - Zamas2 doesn't blitz a God-Blue switching Vegeta; he blitzes SSjB Vegeta - Vegeta went from base to SSjB before rushing Zamas2.
To be clear, I was referring to the scene where Fused Zamasu blitzes SSG Vegeta and SSG Goku prior to Vegeta transforming and then attacking him.

More to the point, though, I don't think Vegeta was using Blue's full power at all in the panel that you and TheSaiyanGod are referring to. Recall that Vegeta has to revert to his God form immediately to maintain strength that's approximate to 100% power, and he wasn't doing that there. Also recall my earlier point about God-Blue gradually leaking power when those attacks are used, but much more slowly than just staying in Blue; he should have lost just enough of its strength for a notable difference between himself and Fused Zamasu at that point.
Formerly Marlowe89.

User avatar
Magnificent Ponta
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 167
Joined: Mon Jul 20, 2020 2:25 pm
Location: Not on Tumblr, I guess

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Magnificent Ponta » Fri Jul 31, 2020 6:47 pm

The Undying wrote:
Fri Jul 31, 2020 2:31 pm
*snip*
Before I get back into it, I'd like to thank you for the debate so far - it's been a while since I've had a proper back-and-forth, and I'm enjoying it. It's helped me think a lot harder about my position, and try to tighten some of the looser elements from my earlier posts.

I'll be rearranging the flow of the argument in this post just to try to help my logic (I'll be adding a new point that I think has an important bearing on this whole question), so in responding to your comments in a way that fits this flow without quoting point-for-point, I hope I don't misrepresent any of your positions.

To start off, I think it's fair to say that, from comments such as "My take has always been that the "overflowing" nature of Blue's power is why it drops so quickly for them, even in standard Blue, in the first place. Their trouble retaining that power within their bodies is why it leaks", you and I agree that, for whatever reason, the SSjB aura has SSjB power in it.

Your position is that this is leakage and wastage coming out of the body from the outset and is overflow in that sense; my position is that this is SSjB power that is never in the body and so is not used from the outset, being overflow in that sense (though it can also leach out further, as I have said before and will expand on). Bearing this in mind, I'm going to interrogate your connection between the presence of the aura and continual power drain, and introduce the consideration of stamina to bolster my argument.

Firstly, I'd like to ask you to explain, if the aura is just power leakage that is lost to the user, how it is that SSjB ever has such a thing as "full power" in the way Vegeta describes. As every instance of an SSjB transformation (including Goku's before he seals it off) shows the aura, it would follow, from your position, that the power in it is being lost to the user. This seems to me a flat contradiction of Vegeta's statement that "Blue's weakness is that its full power only lasts for a short while", as it's basically lost immediately by this understanding.

I don't think this is a strawman on your position, as you've been arguing that an aggregation of (what you yourself call) "instantaneous bursts" of this power have added up to a significant power drain, such as when you say "[Vegeta] should have lost just enough of its strength for a notable difference between himself and Fused Zamasu". Secondly, I should re-iterate that I fundamentally disagree with your statement here in any case, because Goku specifically states that when Vegeta is using the bursts, "his power isn't decreasing." Furthermore, if you take Goku's statement seriously, then you need to factor this in when explaining how it is that Zamas2 can beat SSjB Vegeta so easily. I note that you say that this particular usage on Vegeta's part isn't itself a burst, but the exchange is so brief that I can't imagine you making a full-throated argument that somehow there's been a considerable fall-off of power in the few panels that exist between Vegeta transforming and getting pummelled.

This leads me to the third point. I'd like to (re-)introduce 'stamina' as a concept that actually makes a big difference to the stability of power in SSjB, though we haven't really mentioned it so far. I would like to suggest that stamina is a control on whether the power leaches away in the aura, how rapidly it does this, and its implications for the 'full power' (and also, in turn, the complete power) of the form.

Vegeta states that when the aura spills out of Zamas2, recovering his stamina is a prerequisite for him to keep control of the power in the form. It follows, then, that if his stamina were as it should be, he'd have control of his power. Goku states that "you can't fight in [SSjB] for long", but we see showings where SSjB and its analogous forms seem to be used for fairly extended periods without even a very notable (or stated) fall-off in power. Black, for instance, seems to use his form over and over before getting his comeuppance, without being subjected to obvious or stated drain; Vegetto uses Blue without much apparent cost for something close to 40 minutes. Zamas2, of course, uses his form throughout. Goku mentions that Vegeta is capable of "storing" the blue power when he isn't making it selectively explode through multiple transformations, and that his power "isn't decreasing". The thing that all these seem to have in common is that they are uses of the form where the user isn't particularly physically taxed by their fight (their opponents being much weaker than they are), so their stamina is well-regulated, and the aura isn't therefore leaking power so that the power is lost. The SSjB form remains at "full power", therefore, even though the power isn't within, and so isn't used (and thus isn't practically as strong as completed SSjB, as I've said, which brings this power within).

However, when they are taxed by fighting a stronger foe, their stamina drops and can't regulate their power, and that, I am arguing, is when the power of SSjB leaches away in the aura. This actually gives further context to Vegeta's statement, as he is commenting on a fierce fight where Goku's stamina is pushed to the limit and his power isn't leaching at all, allowing him to "fight continuously at 100%". To bring this circuitous argument to its conclusion, the reason for this is that the aura and its power is now all brought within, and cannot leach away with loss of stamina. However, it has the problems for Goku that I've mentioned in previous posts.

So, to summarise, I believe my position actually fits Vegeta's statement better, and accounts for both elements of Vegeta's statement, because it accounts for the fact that sealing the aura and Blue power within is responsible for observable improved performance (both against Zamas2 and at other points such as Vegeta vs. Beerus), it takes seriously statements which indicate when power isn't dropping in the form and its implications for power relationships, and it accounts for how "full power" can otherwise exist in the form (if not in the body) for a period as per Vegeta's statement.

User avatar
The Undying
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 271
Joined: Sun Dec 22, 2019 5:47 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by The Undying » Fri Jul 31, 2020 11:00 pm

Magnificent Ponta wrote:
Fri Jul 31, 2020 6:47 pm
Before I get back into it, I'd like to thank you for the debate so far - it's been a while since I've had a proper back-and-forth, and I'm enjoying it. It's helped me think a lot harder about my position, and try to tighten some of the looser elements from my earlier posts.
I appreciate it. I'm glad you find it stimulating.
Magnificent Ponta wrote:
Fri Jul 31, 2020 6:47 pm
This seems to me a flat contradiction of Vegeta's statement that "Blue's weakness is that its full power only lasts for a short while", as it's basically lost immediately by this understanding.
Magnificent Ponta wrote:
Fri Jul 31, 2020 6:47 pm
I note that you say that this particular usage on Vegeta's part isn't itself a burst, but the exchange is so brief that I can't imagine you making a full-throated argument that somehow there's been a considerable fall-off of power in the few panels that exist between Vegeta transforming and getting pummelled.
Out of everything in your post, these two points are what I'm most interested in addressing.

Taking that statement on its own, we don't know how short a "short while" would be. We have to look at how the characters actually mitigate the drop-off in power; specifically in Vegeta's case, since he was relying on a workaround for incomplete Blue's deteriorating strength instead of completing it like Goku did. Vegeta's tactic of transforming into Blue while attacking and then immediately switching back to God before most observers could notice strongly implies that the form's full power can only be maintained some milliseconds before it starts to decrease. That seems to have been the whole point of transitioning between forms so quickly - the trick doesn't merely let Vegeta use 100% longer, it allows him to use it at all beyond the initial transformative burst. Goku also suggests this when he says that it lets Vegeta release an explosion of power, and it's consistent with Goku's kicking Hit.

You might object that "short while" would imply something longer than milliseconds, but keep in mind that we're working with limited English translations and connotations. I'd be more interested in the Japanese phrasing here, since the original term might contextually include near-instant timeframes. Regardless, that counterpoint wouldn't line up with the fact that Vegeta consistently switched between forms immediately. Much faster than his exchange with Fused Zamasu, in any case.
Magnificent Ponta wrote:
Fri Jul 31, 2020 6:47 pm
This leads me to the third point. I'd like to (re-)introduce 'stamina' as a concept that actually makes a big difference to the stability of power in SSjB, though we haven't really mentioned it so far.
All very interesting points, but I find that a bit speculative for my liking. I'm not trying to be dismissive. It's just that when I argue for what I think the author intended, I don't imagine Toyotaro or Toriyama being so technical with significant gaps affecting stamina drainage rates and power stability.

Moreover, the U6 tournament largely undermines the notion of stronger opponents being "less taxed" as it were; Vegeta was greatly affected by Blue's stamina problem throughout, and Goku would later admit he relied on the initial burst to attack Hit even though Hit himself is thoroughly unimpressive in that story arc from a raw power standpoint.

You might be left wondering what implications Blue's weakness has for Rosé. To be honest, I'm completely ambivalent in that regard. I think it's ambiguous and may not have been authorially considered. It's possible that Rosé either doesn't have such a weakness or its rapid power drain made no difference because of the large gap between Black and Goku/Vegeta in equivalent forms.
Formerly Marlowe89.

User avatar
Magnificent Ponta
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 167
Joined: Mon Jul 20, 2020 2:25 pm
Location: Not on Tumblr, I guess

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Magnificent Ponta » Sat Aug 01, 2020 8:17 am

The Undying wrote:
Fri Jul 31, 2020 11:00 pm
You might object that "short while" would imply something longer than milliseconds, but keep in mind that we're working with limited English translations and connotations. I'd be more interested in the Japanese phrasing here, since the original term might contextually include near-instant timeframes. Regardless, that counterpoint wouldn't line up with the fact that Vegeta consistently switched between forms immediately. Much faster than his exchange with Fused Zamasu, in any case.
I certainly agree that it would be useful to have more context for this (maybe one for the translation request thread?), but if I were to judge without this extra particular datum, I'd say that the phrase "short while" is non-specific for a reason, and that this is borne out by the quite varying usages we actually see in SSjB, which I mentioned in my previous post. If it's always just basically instantaneous loss of max power all the time no matter who uses it, there'd be no need for such a vague statement. If it actually varies according to user and according to fight, catch-all expressions like that make better sense.

And the fact that Vegeta is intent on using the power for basically instantaneous periods against Black isn't in and of itself an indicator that the power loss is also basically instantaneous, either. It's just a much more efficient way of using the power throughout a fight of uncertain duration and intensity than having it 'on' all the time, by which point Vegeta may have expended enough stamina to actually start losing power from the form - the way Vegeta does it, Goku notes that his power isn't decreasing. Which is an advantage to him throughout.

Given that we've seen instances of perfectly proficient SSjB use that are obviously longer than this, I think it's a reach to say that Vegeta's teensy use of SSjB against Zamas2 (fewer panels than even Goku powering up and preparing to seal his aura) is somehow so draining as to make all the difference in their respective powers, particularly when it isn't stated. It's a much more obvious solution to say that Zamas2 is just a lot stronger than a non-complete SSjB.
The Undying wrote:
Fri Jul 31, 2020 11:00 pm
All very interesting points, but I find that a bit speculative for my liking. I'm not trying to be dismissive. It's just that when I argue for what I think the author intended, I don't imagine Toyotaro or Toriyama being so technical with significant gaps affecting stamina drainage rates and power stability.
That's fair enough, but in analysing it, I may have made it sound more technical than it is. Saying that a character has to work harder and expend more stamina and energy in a fierce and close fight than an easy one is not really complex, nor is saying that characters with depleted stamina find it harder (or impossible) to govern energy use and maintain their power - stories and fights from Dragon Ball have already raised and played with these basic ideas. All I'm really doing is linking this consideration up with explaining the power leach through the SSjB aura, which we both already agree is a clear phenomenon; I don't think this is overly speculative.

Moreover, if anything the authorial indicators we have point towards SSjB not only having its own issues when it comes to stamina and energy use, but also being governed by the character's approach to energy usage more generally. Vegeta notices that Goku's apparently slow move up through the gears against Hit is because he's saving power for SSjB; Goku chides Vegeta for not saving power prior to the fight with Hit; Goku says he can't use SSjB for long because he used up a lot of energy doing the Mafuba; and Goku also says that SSjG is good as a transformation [from which Vegeta can let the Blue power explode], as it's well-balanced and doesn't use much energy itself.

So, I'd say that there are several points at which the overall stamina and energy usage of the user is explicitly tied up with the kind of power they can marshal in the Blue form - if anything, the authorial intention here is apparently even more thoroughgoing than I indicated in my previous post.
The Undying wrote:
Fri Jul 31, 2020 11:00 pm
Moreover, the U6 tournament largely undermines the notion of stronger opponents being "less taxed" as it were; Vegeta was greatly affected by Blue's stamina problem throughout, and Goku would later admit he relied on the initial burst to attack Hit even though Hit himself is thoroughly unimpressive in that story arc from a raw power standpoint.
Well, at this point in the story, SSjB has extra problems which don't apply later, as you know. Vegeta falls foul of the energy consumption inherent in repeat SSjB transformation (as Goku also notes, "Transforming takes a lot of energy"), which doesn't affect him by the Future Trunks arc. Goku's usage isn't a frivolous one, as it's implied that Hit's full power is stronger than SSjG, so Goku actually needs to use the power of the form to break the Time Skip and win. Goku notes while using SSjB that he'll "release everything I've got in one shot", so it's hardly surprising that he can only do it once like this (also factoring in the matter of simply not being able to transform a second time without losing 90% or more of the power). So I don't think the position I've taken is undermined when considering SSjB's later, better-controlled usages.
The Undying wrote:
Fri Jul 31, 2020 11:00 pm
You might be left wondering what implications Blue's weakness has for Rosé. To be honest, I'm completely ambivalent in that regard. I think it's ambiguous and may not have been authorially considered. It's possible that Rosé either doesn't have such a weakness or its rapid power drain made no difference because of the large gap between Black and Goku/Vegeta in equivalent forms.
I think that there are definitely idiosyncrasies in Black's forms generally because of his adjustments towards controlling Goku's power, and if one subscribes to the idea of set power multipliers for SSj forms, it's entirely possible that Black has his own, and I agree that there is much that is ambiguous. However, if stamina recovery becomes a factor in governing energy usage and aura-power even for the constantly-recovering Zamas2, like Vegeta says it is, then it's reasonable to say that it applies to everyone else at least as much.

User avatar
The Undying
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 271
Joined: Sun Dec 22, 2019 5:47 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by The Undying » Sat Aug 01, 2020 3:16 pm

Magnificent Ponta wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 8:17 am
And the fact that Vegeta is intent on using the power for basically instantaneous periods against Black isn't in and of itself an indicator that the power loss is also basically instantaneous, either. It's just a much more efficient way of using the power throughout a fight of uncertain duration and intensity than having it 'on' all the time, by which point Vegeta may have expended enough stamina to actually start losing power from the form - the way Vegeta does it, Goku notes that his power isn't decreasing. Which is an advantage to him throughout.
I'm not really sure why you think this is a rebuttal as opposed to something that supports my position. If Vegeta's immediate switching-then-switching-back was intended to use Blue's power more efficiently than, as you say, expending enough stamina "to actually start losing power from the form", that would by itself suggest that the power loss is nearly instant. Remember that he's switching in milliseconds, not just a second or two. You said yourself that Goku notes Vegeta's power isn't decreasing because of his way of doing it. I don't know how else you can interpret the dialogue and visuals than to see Vegeta's instantaneous cycling as the reason he's able to mitigate Blue's weakness.

Frankly, though, I didn't really come into this discussion with the intention of having a protracted back-and-forth. I'd rather let others decide where they stand after I've laid out everything I've needed to. It's just that if Vegeta's distinction between complete Blue and incomplete Blue was specifically the duration of its full power rather than being able to use its full power at all, the writer's intention seems pretty clear to me.

I think I'll leave it there. Again, that's not to sound dismissive - I just think we've exhausted the discussion at this point.
Formerly Marlowe89.

User avatar
Magnificent Ponta
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 167
Joined: Mon Jul 20, 2020 2:25 pm
Location: Not on Tumblr, I guess

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Magnificent Ponta » Sat Aug 01, 2020 4:18 pm

The Undying wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 3:16 pm
I'm not really sure why you think this is a rebuttal as opposed to something that supports my position. If Vegeta's immediate switching-then-switching-back was intended to use Blue's power more efficiently than, as you say, expending enough stamina "to actually start losing power from the form", that would by itself suggest that the power loss is nearly instant. You said yourself that Goku notes Vegeta's power isn't decreasing because of his way of doing it. I don't know how else you can interpret the dialogue and visuals than to see Vegeta's instantaneous cycling as the reason he's able to mitigate Blue's weakness.
If it's a question of stamina governing the extent and rate of the power leach, then no, that doesn't suggest instantaneous power loss, because that's contingent on Vegeta's actual performance and how much effort he needs to expend in the fight. An easy fight means he's not likely to expend significant stamina and lose power, for example - he would at least need to fight for longer than he would in an intense fight before becoming affected in this way (hence my emphasising the indefiniteness of Vegeta's statement, and also the various instances in the arc where SSjB doesn't appear to be particularly affected by power leach - usually, when the fight is an easy one).

If Vegeta has devised a way that he can use the SSjB power which guards against this problem and extends the duration of SSjB's use vis-a-vis the fight in any case, why wouldn't he use it? I've never denied that his cycling mitigates the weakness in and of itself, but I'm saying that the fact of his cycling in this way doesn't itself speak to whether the power loss is instantaneous, as that's a much more specific claim that I don't think is warranted by the sum total of the evidence.
I think I'll leave it there. Again, that's not to sound dismissive - I just think we've exhausted the discussion at this point.
That's fair enough - like I said a few posts back, I think we're emphasising different things in our interpretations (me, the fact that the power is sealed within the body; you, that it's a continuous use of the power); so, I guess I'll just say thank you for your time. Just to leave this to rest with my position spelled out as succinctly as I can, then:
  • Descriptions and depictions of SSjB indicate that a significant amount of its power is overflowing into the aura. As it's not within the body, it isn't used. Yet, SSjB's full power is there, even if it can't be used and directed at will. How long this full power lasts depends on the next point.
  • As the user fights and their stamina drops due to expenditure of effort, the power overflowing into the aura leaches away and isn't there any more (the form is no longer at full power). Likewise, the power within overflows ever more out into the aura, and in turn leaches away, until too much power is expended to use the form properly (or at all).
  • Completed SSjB seals the power in the aura within the body, which is therefore more power than an SSjB typically has at their disposal for use. This therefore is a buff in practical terms, and it is capable of continuous use without diminishing even when in a fierce fight that requires high expenditure of effort, as it isn't leaching away.
  • So, Completed SSjB has advantages over 'ordinary' SSjB both in the amount of power it can command, and the duration for which it can do so.

User avatar
Koitsukai
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1371
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2018 5:02 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Wed Aug 05, 2020 12:40 pm

Magnificent Ponta wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 4:18 pm
  • Descriptions and depictions of SSjB indicate that a significant amount of its power is overflowing into the aura. As it's not within the body, it isn't used. Yet, SSjB's full power is there, even if it can't be used and directed at will. How long this full power lasts depends on the next point.
  • As the user fights and their stamina drops due to expenditure of effort, the power overflowing into the aura leaches away and isn't there any more (the form is no longer at full power). Likewise, the power within overflows ever more out into the aura, and in turn leaches away, until too much power is expended to use the form properly (or at all).
  • Completed SSjB seals the power in the aura within the body, which is therefore more power than an SSjB typically has at their disposal for use. This therefore is a buff in practical terms, and it is capable of continuous use without diminishing even when in a fierce fight that requires high expenditure of effort, as it isn't leaching away.
  • So, Completed SSjB has advantages over 'ordinary' SSjB both in the amount of power it can command, and the duration for which it can do so.
I agree here. I think regular SSB and the God-Switch can output like 90% (or whatever) of the full capacity before they start dropping. With the Switch it doesn't drop according to Goku, so I guess that style keeps the available power constant, but still with an aura that leaks thus not reaching it's full potential. Like smoking a joint with a filter, you'll smoke the whole thing, but without it the last little chunk will not be smoked. If initial SSB Vegeta equals Perfected Blue Vegeta, then I don't know how an already beaten SS Black survived that initial full power attack.

Also, is it just me or Vegeta was as stupid as he could in the earlier part of that arc? he got trashed by a supressed Hit because he misused SSB for a second earlier but vs Black he beats him just as SS, then goes blue, challenges him, beats him up, stays transformed until Zamasu heals him, keeps fighting... did he learn nothing from the previous arc??? was he trying to lose?

User avatar
Magnificent Ponta
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 167
Joined: Mon Jul 20, 2020 2:25 pm
Location: Not on Tumblr, I guess

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Magnificent Ponta » Wed Aug 05, 2020 4:18 pm

Koitsukai wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 12:40 pm
I agree here. I think regular SSB and the God-Switch can output like 90% (or whatever) of the full capacity
I go back and forth on how much extra usable power I think Completed SSjB affords the user.

I basically agree with previous comments of initial SSjB giving more-or-less a 5-fold increase on SSjG, so obviously it's tempting to go for a correspondence of multipliers between Base/SSj and SSjG/SSjB (as well as an overall correspondence with the anime's Kaio-Ken x10 SSjB), and say that Completed SSjB is 10 times that of its initial power, but I feel like that's just too much.

So at the moment, I'm tentatively eyeing a 10-fold increase overall (so 2 times the initial power), and seeing whether that sits better with me. It may end up being less for me; not sure just yet.
Koitsukai wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 12:40 pm
Like smoking a joint with a filter, you'll smoke the whole thing, but without it the last little chunk will not be smoked.
That's certainly a colourful simile :lol: I hadn't looked at it that way, I must confess - I'd simply looked at it in terms of Within and Without (I tried doing 'geyser in the glass', too, I guess...)
Koitsukai wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 12:40 pm
Also, is it just me or Vegeta was as stupid as he could in the earlier part of that arc? he got trashed by a supressed Hit because he misused SSB for a second earlier but vs Black he beats him just as SS, then goes blue, challenges him, beats him up, stays transformed until Zamasu heals him, keeps fighting... did he learn nothing from the previous arc??? was he trying to lose?
Well, I guess he learns up to a point - his problem with Hit was transforming too much (well, twice), and he stayed in the form for the duration of his first visit to Trunks's time (once he activated it, that is) - he couldn't have foreseen Black getting so much stronger just like that; it still boggles my mind slightly to see Black's SSj(2?) form rivalling Vegeta's SSjB even before he unlocks Rosé. Under the circumstances, I think Vegeta fixes the situation as quickly as could be expected (for a reactive approach, anyway).

That puts me in mind, though - is it established (beyond just a common sense assumption) that Vegeta gets SSjG before he gets SSjB? Obviously that'd be my natural assumption, but I was wondering if this was stated anywhere, like an interview or something; obviously the visual evidence of Revival of F isn't particularly helpful.

User avatar
Koitsukai
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1371
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2018 5:02 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Wed Aug 05, 2020 4:44 pm

Magnificent Ponta wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 4:18 pm

That puts me in mind, though - is it established (beyond just a common sense assumption) that Vegeta gets SSjG before he gets SSjB? Obviously that'd be my natural assumption, but I was wondering if this was stated anywhere, like an interview or something; obviously the visual evidence of Revival of F isn't particularly helpful.

It hasn't been explicitly stated, no, although Toriyama might've gotten that question sometime, if it isn't on this site, then it doesn't exist.
Not even how Vegeta achieves SSG is clear, but if we take BoG's ending into account, Vegeta was telling Goku that next time he better help him do the ritual, so we can assume by RoF(and for the manga too because it never touched the subject) Vegeta has already done the ritual and has every god form available except Evolved Blue. DBZ Kakarot's DLC has Vegeta doing the ritual, I remember it was suppose to be somewhat canon. So maybe, Toriyama got the question from the devs and that DLC was his "statement".

The anime has been pretty straightforward about it, claiming he got SSG through training with Whis for six months alone or something like that.

User avatar
ZombieVito
I Live Here
Posts: 4487
Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2013 12:18 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Thu Aug 06, 2020 12:46 am

U6 arc kinda implies it's a 5 times increase of SSG since SSG > 10% Blue.

Since the description of Blue is a Saiyan with the power of God turning Super Saiyan then Completed Blue should be 10 times over normal Blue. This would also give Merged Zamasu a good fusion boost.

User avatar
The Undying
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 271
Joined: Sun Dec 22, 2019 5:47 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by The Undying » Thu Aug 06, 2020 10:17 am

This again depends on whether you differentiate between complete and standard Blue's max power (I think the two may be distinct, but if they are, it's only by a fairly small amount) and by extension whether you think Whis in the U6 arc was referring to "not even 10%" of Blue's power on average or "not even 10%" of 100%; I find the latter interpretation much easier to follow, so in my view, a completed Blue could be anywhere from 5 to 10 times the strength of Super Saiyan God.

That might not seem like much, but it's important to remember that at god levels of power, even a twofold boost is completely fucking massive.
Formerly Marlowe89.

ankokudaishogun
OMG CRAZY REG
Posts: 766
Joined: Thu Aug 24, 2017 8:07 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ankokudaishogun » Thu Aug 06, 2020 6:35 pm

With regular(incomplete) Blue transformation, we have Peak Blue Power and Normal Blue Power.

Peak is the power displayed for the first few instants of the transformation
Normal is the power displayed the rest of the time

Complete Blue gives the user the ability to use Peak Power all time.

Given we didn't even know about the Peak Power of Regular Blue, it's not likely Whis was talking about it when it stated God being stronger than less-than-10% Blue

Last: we know Toyo and TOEI feed each others ideas.
Given Toyo had Goku use pseudo-Kaioken and Vegeta going Evolution, I'd say they were supposed to be equivalent to the anime Blue Kaioken x20 and Evolution


so in my opinion:
Anime Blue=Normal Blue~>10 times God
Complete Blue=Peak Blue=10 times Normal Blue=Anime Kaiohken Blue x10
Manga Pseudo-Kaiohken Complete Blue=Manga Blue Evolution=Anime Kaiohken Blue x20=Anime Blue Evolution=2 times Complete Blue

User avatar
Dragon Wukong
Regular
Posts: 583
Joined: Mon Sep 09, 2013 1:06 am

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Dragon Wukong » Fri Aug 07, 2020 9:45 pm

IMO, both the FT arc and the Zeno exhibition match suggests that SSG isn't that far behind completed Super Saiyan Blue.

Goku was able to fight relatively well against Toppo in SSG, but still lost when he went Blue thanks to Toppo's well timed hit. I honestly have doubts Blue at full power/complete is even as much as twice as strong as God. Not to mention SSG was strong enough for Vegeta use it against Black in terms of maneuverability.

Every time I say a statement like this I'll remind that a gap in power does not have to be massive for one fighter to completely overpower another fighter. It's within reason to say that SSG could be a 6, and Blue/Zamasu could be an 8 or an 8.5, and the difference would still be meaningful for one to completely overpower the other.

UI Peter
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 166
Joined: Tue Aug 04, 2020 6:19 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by UI Peter » Sat Aug 15, 2020 1:39 am

I've heard many fans debate whether or not Kale & Caulifla in the ToP anime were stronger than the Black arc unfused Saiyans (as crazy as that sounds). What do you guys think?

User avatar
ZombieVito
I Live Here
Posts: 4487
Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2013 12:18 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Sat Aug 15, 2020 2:20 am

Caulifla is definitely stronger than them after episode 113. I have no idea about Kale.

User avatar
Magnificent Ponta
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 167
Joined: Mon Jul 20, 2020 2:25 pm
Location: Not on Tumblr, I guess

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Magnificent Ponta » Sat Aug 15, 2020 6:21 am

UI Peter wrote:
Sat Aug 15, 2020 1:39 am
I've heard many fans debate whether or not Kale & Caulifla in the ToP anime were stronger than the Black arc unfused Saiyans (as crazy as that sounds). What do you guys think?
For a manga-based answer, I'd say Caulifla definitely isn't anywhere near the Universe 7 Saiyans from that time, unless you're just going by equivalent forms - she might be quite close in Base and SSj. But 4th Form Freeza plays with her generally, and slaps her silly when he goes Golden. There's no way she compares to Future Trunks-arc SSjB Goku (who in ki size isn't very different from Tournament of Power SSjB Goku, since he hasn't been training much, though his greater facility with Completed Blue probably makes a noteworthy difference).

Kale in base is shown and stated to be stronger even than SSj Caulifla, so she's harder to judge for - but even once she's gone SSj, SSjB Goku catches her punch pretty easily, and while he's impressed, he's obviously stronger than her until her ki spikes a bunch. But the fact that she can smack Golden Freeza around a bit (even if he still thinks he can win) puts her firmly in God territory at least, even initially.

Ultimately, I'd say she comes out with a bigger ki than Goku when at the peak of her power, but you also have the question of her power damaging her and so she's not wielding it properly (so not being quite so powerful as her ki implies) - I think SSj Kale (before she gets too bulky) and Completed SSjB Goku from the Future Trunks arc would probably be a very close fight with both characters showing a lot of the same problems.

Post Reply