Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Lionel]

Piccolo's "strategic intelligence" amounted to him playing evasive defence and creating feints while he charged his attack. It's not like his approach to the fight was algorithmic or multifaceted in any way. Ultimately what gave him the opening to try and fire was the strength of his limbs subduing Frost, and yes, Frost had plenty of time to break free while conversing with Piccolo for over a minute. If Goku can escape while having all of his arms and legs subdued by Giran's Merry-Go-Round Gum then surely Frost can do the same when it's just his upper arms.

[Bullza]

That's just over analysing details though. They specifically made a point of his strategic intelligence in the fight which clearly allowed him to stand a better chance than Goku had given him credit for.

Some things just need to be taken at face value. In most fights you can say a character should have done this or that. Raditz was stronger than Goku and he didn't escape from his grasp because the plot needed for them to die.

The plot called for Frost to be put in a situation where he was forced to cheat leading to Goku getting back in.

[TheMikado]

That's just over analysing details though. They specifically made a point of his strategic intelligence in the fight which clearly allowed him to stand a better chance than Goku had given him credit for.

Some things just need to be taken at face value. In most fights you can say a character should have done this or that. Raditz was stronger than Goku and he didn't escape from his grasp because the plot needed for them to die.

The plot called for Frost to be put in a situation where he was forced to cheat leading to Goku getting back in.

That's fine but we know Piccolo's special beam cannon 4-5x his fight power at best. If we generously assume Piccolo is at best SPC level his SBC should only be able to do damage to someone at Buu/SSJ3 levels. No amount of strategy can make up for that large of a power disparity. Further that we saw what a SSJ3 is relative to Gods. So if Frost is above a base Goku at this point we know that's well beyond a SPC SBC could do. Tired or not. I'm pretty sure Frost said it could have killed him.

For context, let's say Frost is only half as powerful as SSJ Goku and Gokus base tanks SSJ3 Gotenks without flinching and Frost is 25x stronger than that! He could still lose 90-95% of his power and still be stronger than SSJ3 and stronger than anything a SPC level piccolo could hit him with. If Frost is a God level and Piccolo is not. Even exhausted Piccolo should last a second. We've seen what Gods can do at tiny percentages of power it's not comparable. The only way this first works is if they are both God level or they both aren't.

[Chiki]

Saying Piccolo can beat Frost at SPC level with the one base theory due to strategic acumen is like saying that Saiyan Saga Piccolo could beat Namek Final Form Frieza since the power gap is huge. It's pretty ridiculous and makes no sense.

[Bullza]

That's fine but we know Piccolo's special beam cannon 4-5x his fight power at best.

But Krillin did say that Piccolo "intends to settle the match with an attack far beyond his normal limits". It's not like he hasn't beaten someone much stronger get than him with the same move before.

It's not the most farfetched thing in the series. Krillin could probably have killed Frieza if he'd threw his destructo disc through his neck. Chiaotzu was able to stall Goku briefly with his telekinesis too.

[Speedster]

Regarding Frost Vs Piccolo my own headcanon is that Frost was incredibly weakened after taking a beating from SSJ1 Goku. In Toyotaro’s manga Vegeta dropped to 1/10th of his full SSJ Blue power without any apparent sign of a power drop. So if we say that Frost dropped to 1/10th of his full power and that at full power he’s 1.5x stronger than base Goku then since Piccolo’s only chance at winning weakened Frost was a makankosappo of say 5x amplification (Piccolo was say 4.5 times weaker than weakened Frost) it follows that base Goku is 30x stronger than Piccolo. Can this 30x gap fit? Well it can fit barely.

a) Injured SSJ2 Gohan (enraged, Cell Games) --- 0.9
b) Ultra Perfect Cell --- 1
c) Piccolo (U6 arc) --- 1.7
d) SSJ2 Gohan (full power i.e. non-injured + enraged, Cell Games) --- 1.8
e) Majin SSJ2 Vegeta --- 2.25
f) Fat Buu --- 3.8
g) Weakened Frost --- 7.65
h) Piccolo's makankosappo --- 8.5
i) Base Super Buu --- 11.5
j) Ultimate Gohan --- 15
k) Buuhan --- 26.5
l) Super Vegetto (Buu arc) --- 42
m) Base Goku/Vegeta (U6 arc) --- 51
n) Final Form Frost (full power) --- 76.5

[TheMikado]

^ you above scenario requires someone to lose 90% of their power/energy over 30-90 secs of getting roughed up. That has literally never happened to anyone in DB before and not to Frieza race after cutting off half his body... In addition you're placing Final form Frost pretty close to base Goku.

That's fine but we know Piccolo's special beam cannon 4-5x his fight power at best.

But Krillin did say that Piccolo "intends to settle the match with an attack far beyond his normal limits". It's not like he hasn't beaten someone much stronger get than him with the same move before.

It's not the most farfetched thing in the series. Krillin could probably have killed Frieza if he'd threw his destructo disc through his neck. Chiaotzu was able to stall Goku briefly with his telekinesis too.

Except we know what happens in the exact situation with Krillian vs Cell. They power gap between Piccolo to God tier Frost should theoritically be mathematically greater than that.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xsznRLg3Pmc

This is exactly what should have happened with the SBC against a God tier frost.

[Cipher]

Saying Piccolo can beat Frost at SPC level with the one base theory due to strategic acumen is like saying that Saiyan Saga Piccolo could beat Namek Final Form Frieza since the power gap is huge. It's pretty ridiculous and makes no sense.

Piccolo seems to think he has a non-zero chance if he uses the Makankosappo on a Frost who was beaten to exhaustion by Goku. This also assumes, I guess, that he still thinks the attack won't kill Frost, even though the last time we saw it, it drilled a hole through someone more than three times Piccolo's strength, and Goku flatly tells Piccolo before he enters the ring that he has no chance.

I feel like everything in the anime version of Piccolo vs. Frost lines up just fine with Frost being faaaar stronger than Piccolo, even if some elements are played up for tension.

[Bullza]

Except we know what happens in the exact situation with Krillian vs Cell. They power gap between Piccolo to God tier Frost should theoritically be mathematically greater than that.

Well the destructo disc bit wasn't in the manga. There was an enormous gap between Krillin and Frieza's second form but he was still able to cut his tail off.

Again it's probably just something to take at face value rather than working out any calculations. If the attack exceeds his normal limits then it can be as strong as it needs to be.

The characters in the show knew that Frost was a lot stronger than Piccolo and the writers were aware that of that too because they specifically wrote that fight in a way that allowed Piccolo to put up a decent fight. They said he was fighting defensively, they pointed out he's a smart fighter who was using a strategy and they had him using attacks that surpassed his limits.

Yes it would have made more sense for Frost to finger flick Piccolo out of the ring but nobody would have wanted to have seen that so they had to write it in a way that he could at least get an episodes worth of a fight in.

[DBZ Macky]

Okay so first post here.
Bullza, Although I follow the 2 base theory, I'd still agree there is minimal evidence in its favor.
I don't like it but I'm forced to agree with it because the multipliers don't fit, Like at ALL.
So, I hope you could do me a favor and let me know your NUMERICAL power levels from the Buu saga to now
Infact, If anyone who follows one base could share their power levels, then I'd be very grateful.

[fexus]

People really need to understand that Piccolo charged up attack doesn't matter that much right now. The problem here is Piccolo got Frost in an arm bind and needed poison to break out of it. Doesn't speak much of him beibg that much stronger. If so either Frost is so much weaker or Piccolo is much stronger than we thought. And it seems Frost being weaker is much more unlikely.

[Bullza]

So, I hope you could do me a favor and let me know your NUMERICAL power levels from the Buu saga to now

Well I've never given much though to actual power level numbers and I'm not as familiar with the Buu saga as I am with Super but I suppose I could give it a try like this.

Buu saga

Goku - 1
SSJ Goku - 50
SSJ2 Goku - 100
SSJ3 Goku - 400

SSJ Gotenks - 500
SSJ2 Gotenks - 1,000
SSJ3 Gotenks - 4,000

Piccolo - 20
Gohan - 6,000
Super Vegito - 25,000

Good Buu - 150
Kid Buu - 380
Super Buu - 3,500
Buutenks - 8,500
Buuhan - 9,500

Beerus saga

Goku - 2
SSJ Goku - 100
SSJ2 Goku - 200
SSJ3 Goku - 800
SSJG Goku - 16,000,000

SSJ Vegito - 50,000
SSJ2 Vegito - 100,000
SSJ3 Vegito - 400,000

Enraged SSJ2 Vegeta - 10,000

Beerus - 2,500,000,000
Whis - 3,750,000,000

Frieza saga

Goku - 376,000
SSJB Goku - 188,000,000

Piccolo - 20
Gohan - 25
SSJ Gohan - 1,250

Tagoma - 25

First Form Frieza - 1,500
Final Form Frieza - 340,000
Golden Frieza - 210,000,000

Champa saga

Goku - 400,000
SSJ Goku - 20,000,000
SSJB Goku - 200,000,000
SSJB Goku Kaioken x 10 - 2,000,000,0000

Piccolo - 100

Botamo - 55,000
First Form Frost - 66,000
Third Form Frost - 300,000
Final Form Frost - 15,000,000

Magetta - 17,000,000

Cabba - 360,000
SSJ Cabba - 18,000,000

Hit - 2,000,000,000

Champa - 2,400,000,000
Vados - 3,800,000,000

Black saga

Goku - 420,000
SSJ Goku - 21,000,000
SSJ2 Goku - 42,000,000
SSJ3 Goku - 168,000,000
SSJB Goku - 210,000,000

Trunks - 350,000
SSJ Trunks - 17,500,000
SSJ2 Trunks - 35,000,000

Zamasu - 30,000,000
Black - 212,000,000


The thing that really separates the God level characters from the Buu level characters is in the difference between Frieza's First and Final form. On Namek Frieza's power level ranged from 530,000 to 120,000,000 which is a 226 fold increase. If that is the same in the Resurrection F saga then that's why there's such an enormous difference between Base Goku and the Buu saga characters.

[Beyond]

Your numbers are alright but Piccolo can't possibly fit. You can't believe Frost lost about over 99.9999 percent off power. That's never happened before I think.

[TheMikado]

Your numbers are alright but Piccolo can't possibly fit. You can't believe Frost lost about over 99.9999 percent off power. That's never happened before I think.

Pretty much this, and Buu wouldn't be considered strong or relevant. I mean you have Piccolo get 5x stronger for no real reason and it still doesn't even make a dent on the 15,000,000 number.

For comparison that would like Hercule or Roshi taking on final form full power Frieza. Actually a little worse since you had to make Piccolo 5x stronger just to reach that level of comparison.

Outside of that I think the numbers are well put together.

[Chiki]

Piccolo - 100

Botamo - 55,000
First Form Frost - 66,000
Third Form Frost - 300,000
Final Form Frost - 15,000,000

LOOOOOL sorry, I can't help but laugh here.

Piccolo had a power level of around 300 at the start of the Saiyan Saga. You are suggesting that Frost is x150000 more powerful than Piccolo. Let's say Goku weakened Frost to 20% which would make Frost 3 million. Then the gap is x30000. 300 x 30000 = 9 million. That is like saying start of Saiyan Saga Piccolo can defeat 10% Frieza, or x3 Kaioken post-Zenkai boost Namek Goku via strategic acumen. HAHAHAH

Piccolo seems to think he has a non-zero chance if he uses the Makankosappo on a Frost who was beaten to exhaustion by Goku. This also assumes, I guess, that he still thinks the attack won't kill Frost, even though the last time we saw it, it drilled a hole through someone more than three times Piccolo's strength, and Goku flatly tells Piccolo before he enters the ring that he has no chance.

I feel like everything in the anime version of Piccolo vs. Frost lines up just fine with Frost being faaaar stronger than Piccolo, even if some elements are played up for tension.

Ok, but if you believe in the one base theory, you'd have to think Frost is thousands of times more powerful than Piccolo, a x3 boost from Makankosappo won't be enough.

[Bullza]

Piccolo had a power level of around 300 at the start of the Saiyan Saga. You are suggesting that Frost is x150000 more powerful than Piccolo. Let's say Goku weakened Frost to 20% which would make Frost 3 million. Then the gap is x30000. 300 x 30000 = 9 million. That is like saying start of Saiyan Saga Piccolo can defeat 10% Frieza, or x3 Kaioken post-Zenkai boost Namek Goku via strategic acumen. HAHAHAH

So in other words you saying that Piccolo wouldn't have been able to stand a chance agaisnt Frost? Kinda like what Goku and Piccolo said then isn't it?

It's not my fault that it's funny. Seriously just think about it.

- In the Resurrection F saga Gohan was much stronger than Piccolo.

- Super Saiyan Gohan was 50x stronger than Gohan.

- First Form Frieza is much stronger than SSJ Gohan.

- Final Form Frieza is arguably over 220x stronger than First Form Frieza.

- Final Form Frost is stronger than Final Form Frieza.

That makes Frost AT LEAST dozens of thousands of times more powerful than Piccolo was in the Resurrection F saga and Piccolo did not get thousands of times more powerful by the Champa saga.

Maybe Piccolo is stronger than I put him at and Frost is weaker it's not supposed to be exact. Also I wasn't saying Piccolo had a power level of 100.

[TheMikado]

^ I understood what you meant and I think the numbers are good. The only issue is the insane gap between piccolo and frost which shouldn't have even allowed for a fight at all.

[Bullza]

Yeah it is one of the most farfetched fights in this series. It's up there with some of the filler fights like Yamcha vs Olibu.

There's no real good way that it fits because you can't say he's jumped up to God level because they never commented on his strenght increasing unlike with Vegeta and Trunks and he was shown to be on par with Gohan just a couple days before the tournament.

There isn't an interpretation of that fight that can be given that everyone will agree on.

That's why I think it should just be accepted as it was presented. Piccolo is a fan favourite and that's why he probably had a fight, they all knew he couldn't win and it was written in a way so that he could at least do something.

People didnt like that in the manga version he didn't use the SBC and put up even less of a fight. How would fans have responded if he'd just been flicked into unconsciousess two seconds into the fight? They'd be pissed.

[Lionel]

So the Frost vs Piccolo fight is simply supposed to be treated like some kind of inapplicable outlier that we should just ignore? Apart from the evidence that was already presented, you have Goku's Super Saiyan transformation garnering a brief reaction from Hit (something which Frost's transformation into his Assault Form failed to inspire) and Vegeta transforming against Frost after he had exhausted even more stamina against Piccolo. All of this speaks to the levels being credibly high, albeit not as high as SSJB or anything like it. Piccolo's gains largely don't matter because he's not an integral character to the tournament like Goku and Vegeta are. It doesn't mean he didn't improve substantially compared to where he was before, though. His gains encompassing superiority over the Base Saiyans doesn't seem unreasonable, especially in light of the fact that they can still transform into all of the regular levels on top of Super Saiyan Blue.

[TheMikado]

I think this goes back to the theory of God forms just being straight omitted from the anime. This is also why the two base theory persists because people logically think SSJ should be well below SSG and the manga supports that while the anime seems to try to imply that they are beyond SSG power levels.

At the end of the day I do feel the anime has to be taken as its presented which is how a lot of people interpret it. Where the manga seems to clearly define where those lines of power scaling are. There is room to accept both for what they are presented as in each media. But just because that's what they are presented also doesn't make them logical or well written.

Also in Hits universe Saiyans don't transform. He probably already knows about Frost transformation and isn't surprised. I don't think it has anything to do with power levels. Also in the manga Hit is much much less powerful