Fact Checker (update: Ep.51)

[MaGyunia]

Hmm. Is he stronger than Beerus at any stage? No, he's always weaker, and Beerus is weaker than Whis. Unless by "in the world" you mean the folks living on Earth only, instead of the entire Universe. There's no other possibility for Goku to be called "the strongest in the world" other than that, and the farther you need to look is at what just happened in the last episode. Even after turning into his Super Saiya-jin God form, he's below Beerus. If you count the Beerus + Whis duo - and there's no reason why you shouldn't - it's just impossible for Goku to be the strongest warrior there is no matter where you look at it from. He's the main hero and the main protagonist, but that shouldn't necessarily and automatically make one the strongest warrior in a particular piece of fiction.

[Taskmaster]

Hmm. Is he stronger than Beerus at any stage? No, he's always weaker, and Beerus is weaker than Whis. Unless by "in the world" you mean the folks living on Earth only, instead of the entire Universe. There's no other possibility for Goku to be called "the strongest in the world" other than that, and the farther you need to look is at what just happened in the last episode. Even after turning into his Super Saiya-jin God form, he's below Beerus. If you count the Beerus + Whis duo - and there's no reason why you shouldn't - it's just impossible for Goku to be the strongest warrior there is no matter where you look at it from. He's the main hero and the main protagonist, but that shouldn't necessarily and automatically make one the strongest warrior in a particular piece of fiction.

Until Beerus and Whiz show up, as far as anyone knows, Goku is the strongest.

[MaGyunia]

Hmm. Is he stronger than Beerus at any stage? No, he's always weaker, and Beerus is weaker than Whis. Unless by "in the world" you mean the folks living on Earth only, instead of the entire Universe. There's no other possibility for Goku to be called "the strongest in the world" other than that, and the farther you need to look is at what just happened in the last episode. Even after turning into his Super Saiya-jin God form, he's below Beerus. If you count the Beerus + Whis duo - and there's no reason why you shouldn't - it's just impossible for Goku to be the strongest warrior there is no matter where you look at it from. He's the main hero and the main protagonist, but that shouldn't necessarily and automatically make one the strongest warrior in a particular piece of fiction.

Until Beerus and Whiz show up, as far as anyone knows, Goku is the strongest.

Well, if you count only the good, non-fused guys (thus discarding Vegitto) who showed up during the Majin Buu arc, he'd be the strongest in his Super Saiya-jin 3 stage (although I actually put Ultimate Gohan on par with him when he shows up to thrash Super Buu).

On the other hand, if you count everyone who showed up during the Majin Buu arc, two of the variations of Super Buu, Vegitto and possibly Kid Buu are stronger.

If you want to deal only with character who are alive or in existence AFTER the defeat of Kid Buu, then what I said in my first paragraph in this post applies, and you could somehow make that claim from that perspective (and that perspective only).

[DragonHermit]

Ultimate Gohan > Goku Ssj 3

[RandomGuy96]

Hmm. Is he stronger than Beerus at any stage? No, he's always weaker, and Beerus is weaker than Whis. Unless by "in the world" you mean the folks living on Earth only, instead of the entire Universe. There's no other possibility for Goku to be called "the strongest in the world" other than that, and the farther you need to look is at what just happened in the last episode. Even after turning into his Super Saiya-jin God form, he's below Beerus. If you count the Beerus + Whis duo - and there's no reason why you shouldn't - it's just impossible for Goku to be the strongest warrior there is no matter where you look at it from. He's the main hero and the main protagonist, but that shouldn't necessarily and automatically make one the strongest warrior in a particular piece of fiction.

Until Beerus and Whiz show up, as far as anyone knows, Goku is the strongest.

Well, if you count only the good, non-fused guys (thus discarding Vegitto) who showed up during the Majin Buu arc, he'd be the strongest in his Super Saiya-jin 3 stage (although I actually put Ultimate Gohan on par with him when he shows up to thrash Super Buu).

We'll probably need to take this somewhere else, but you're just objectively wrong here.

[Taskmaster]

We'll probably need to take this somewhere else, but you're just objectively wrong here.

I agree, Goku is far and away stronger than Gohan, who is quite literally trash tier.

[RandomGuy96]

We'll probably need to take this somewhere else, but you're just objectively wrong here.

I agree, Goku is far and away stronger than Gohan, who is quite literally trash tier.

Here we go with this long-debunked bullshit again.

EDIT: I admit this is bad form for the Fact Checker thread. No more responses on this, from me, on here.

[pacz360]

We'll probably need to take this somewhere else, but you're just objectively wrong here.

I agree goku flat out admits that him and vegeta were inferior to super buu without the absorptions.

[Taskmaster]

We'll probably need to take this somewhere else, but you're just objectively wrong here.

I agree goku flat out admits that him and vegeta were inferior to super buu without the absorptions.

I agree that Vegeta flat out said that only Goku could fight Kid Buu. And admit that Vegeta also stated that Goku was #1, and Vegeta said that Pure Buu would kill everyone if Goku didn't stop him. I admit that Daizenshuu 2's interview states that "Goku is the pure strongest in the universe" and that Daizenshuu 7 says the Buu Goku defeated was the strongest in the universe. I admit that Super has 3 statements so far establishing Goku as the strongest and NOTHING is mentioned about Gohan.

It's going to sting even harder when Gohan get embarrassed in DBS Episode 7.

[pacz360]

We'll probably need to take this somewhere else, but you're just objectively wrong here.

I agree goku flat out admits that him and vegeta were inferior to super buu without the absorptions.

I agree that Vegeta flat out said that only Goku could fight Kid Buu. And admit that Vegeta also stated that Goku was #1, and Vegeta said that Pure Buu would kill everyone if Goku didn't stop him. I admit that Daizenshuu 2's interview states that "Goku is the pure strongest in the universe" and that Daizenshuu 7 says the Buu Goku defeated was the strongest in the universe. I admit that Super has 3 statements so far establishing Goku as the strongest and NOTHING is mentioned about Gohan.

It's going to sting even harder when Gohan get embarrassed in DBS Episode 7.

Idk if the daizenshuu is all that trustworthy but in the manga it pretty much tells you that goku was weaker then gohan in the buu saga goku was shitting himself at the thought of fighting super buu while gohan was kicking his ass with ease plus I don't know where it said goku being the strongest considering super buu+his absorptions and vegito,beerus,whis would laugh at that.

[Hugo Boss]

Getting back to the topic... I'm curious on what Vegeta says about his relationship with Goku. Some translations have him saying Goku is his battle comrade, while others have him saying they are rivals. What is the correct translation?

[Kaboom]

All of you take the tired repetitive battle power argument somewhere else. Or preferably don't have it at all, because almost everyone is sick of it.

[Herms]

Getting back to the topic... I'm curious on what Vegeta says about his relationship with Goku. Some translations have him saying Goku is his battle comrade, while others have him saying they are rivals. What is the correct translation?

Vegeta says he and Goku could be described as kataki doushi, a pair of rivals/enemies. The word kataki can mean not only rivals or opponents in sports, but also enemies in war. In context "rival" is probably best, since Vegeta doesn't say it with any apparent malice, and his attitude towards Goku in ep.2 seems more "friendly rival", in keeping with how their relationship developed in the Boo arc. "Battle comrade" is pretty much wrong, since that implies people who fight alongside side each other rather than against each other, which isn't what kataki doushi means (of course, Goku and Vegeta have fought alongside each other sometimes, but Vegeta doesn't mention anything about that).

Edit: Updated the first post with this explanation, and also the "comfy pillow" thing.

[LightBing]

Thank you for this thread Herms, much appreciated!
The pillow joke lost it's effect with me, when Beerus said "I don't know how many people you've killed". How selfish and evil can one be... The chaotic nature of the Hakaishin loses it's meaning, when pillows and pudding are the main causes.

[Taskmaster]

Idk if the daizenshuu is all that trustworthy but in the manga it pretty much tells you that goku was weaker then gohan in the buu saga goku was shitting himself at the thought of fighting super buu while gohan was kicking his ass with ease plus I don't know where it said goku being the strongest considering super buu+his absorptions and vegito,beerus,whis would laugh at that.

The manga doesn't say that at all, and the daizenshuu is plenty trustworthy. The issue here is people don't like the story being told, and twist statement tos mean something completely different so they don't have to "accept it'

[Herms]

I do ask that these sorts of general power arguments be conducted elsewhere, such as this thread. Keep things here focused on translation-related issues for specific statements made in Super.

[Araki]

Thank you for this thread Herms, much appreciated!
The pillow joke lost it's effect with me, when Beerus said "I don't know how many people you've killed". How selfish and evil can one be... The chaotic nature of the Hakaishin loses it's meaning, when pillows and pudding are the main causes.

I think the opposite, that totally fits the whimsical God Beerus is supposed to be. See, he didn't kill King Vegeta because of the pillow. In fact, he didn't ask him to kill anyone, he was just saying what the king went through wasn't his problem, he asked him for that pillow and nothing else.
Beerus doesn't even seem to have a notion about "good" or "evil", as long as people respect him he's fine.

[RandomGuy96]

As I asked earlier:

Minute: 3~4
Elder Kaioshin: “In this universe, there are gods like us, responsible for creating planets and life…And on the flipside, there is a god responsible for destroying those planets and that life. That’s Beerus-sama, the God of Destruction.”
Kaioshin: “Yes, I know of him. So his destruction does have meaning to it.”
Elder Kaioshin: “It doesn’t. There’s no purpose to it. Beerus-sama just destroys on a whim."

Is this line as contradictory as it looks? Elder Kaioshin says that Beerus's responsibility is to destroy planets, but that it serves no purpose. So how is it a responsibility, and why does he seemingly compare it to his own responsibility to create planets? The way the line is worded, it implies that Beerus could just, like, not commit genocide, and everything would still be more or less fine.

[LightBing]

Thank you for this thread Herms, much appreciated!
The pillow joke lost it's effect with me, when Beerus said "I don't know how many people you've killed". How selfish and evil can one be... The chaotic nature of the Hakaishin loses it's meaning, when pillows and pudding are the main causes.

I think the opposite, that totally fits the whimsical God Beerus is supposed to be. See, he didn't kill King Vegeta because of the pillow. In fact, he didn't ask him to kill anyone, he was just saying what the king went through wasn't his problem, he asked him for that pillow and nothing else.
Beerus doesn't even seem to have a notion about "good" or "evil", as long as people respect him he's fine.

I agree he lacks a moral compass and is only evil from our perspective, not his. But when he says the line about how many people King Vegeta might have killed, he assumed his order, included such killing to be accomplished. He's a lazy feline; he didn't destroy Planet Vegeta but ordered Freeza to do so. He's pure self-entitled selfishness. That's why he's coming across more evil in Super than whimsical, we are seeing the consequences. In this episode he asked politely Buu for the pudding but in the second, he wanted to steal the dinosaur meat.

[Araki]

As I asked earlier:

Minute: 3~4
Elder Kaioshin: “In this universe, there are gods like us, responsible for creating planets and life…And on the flipside, there is a god responsible for destroying those planets and that life. That’s Beerus-sama, the God of Destruction.”
Kaioshin: “Yes, I know of him. So his destruction does have meaning to it.”
Elder Kaioshin: “It doesn’t. There’s no purpose to it. Beerus-sama just destroys on a whim."

Is this line as contradictory as it looks? Elder Kaioshin says that Beerus's responsibility is to destroy planets, but that it serves no purpose. So how is it a responsibility, and why does he seemingly compare it to his own responsibility to create planets? The way the line is worded, it implies that Beerus could just, like, not commit genocide, and everything would still be more or less fine.

My take on it is that from the point of view of other Gods, that's a responsibility the God of Destruction holds, but just Beerus himself doesn't see it the same way. Didn't Kaio compare him to a natural disaster? That was a very good analogy, as it's not like there's a "will" or a goal behind it (unless we go religious or conspiratory), but they work as a form of population control, and have unpredictable results like Beerus.

In any case, Beerus' nature makes it impossible for him to not destroy anything, so it ends up working.

I agree he lacks a moral compass and is only evil from our perspective, not his. But when he says the line about how many people King Vegeta might have killed, he assumed his order, included such killing to be accomplished. He's a lazy feline; he didn't destroy Planet Vegeta but ordered Freeza to do so. He's pure self-entitled selfishness. That's why he's coming across more evil in Super than whimsical, we are seeing the consequences. In this episode he asked politely Buu for the pudding but in the second, he wanted to steal the dinosaur meat.

It's a good point that seeing the consequences of his actions (unlike in BoG, where he didn't get that exposition) makes him look more "evil", but in the 2nd episode it was Whis who asked for the meat, Beerus just arrived later, when the alien was already attacking them after he refused to give it away. As long as he's not challenged (or understands anything as mockery) he doesn't take action. He thought Vegeta was trying to make a fool of him, so what Beerus meant by that line was "you shouldn't have done that, if you went to such great extents to get that pillow that you thought you could have it for yourself, that is not my business".