Fact Checker (update: Ep.51)

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Re: Fact Checker (update: Ep.51)

Post by EmmaWinters » Tue Jul 12, 2016 3:26 pm

You're right! Edited.
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Re: Fact Checker (update: Ep.51)

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Wed Jul 13, 2016 8:20 am

Not to look a gift horse in the mouth or anything (I really appreciate all the work you do for this thread), but why was this part covered?
Context: Bulma examines/analyzes the time machine, but can't figure out how to make it work.

 11:38 | Bulma: "If only I could look into my future self's mind!"
 11:45 | Bulma: "What's this? This... This is..."
 12:03 | Bulma: "This is my handwriting! It's my notebook!"

Significance: Bulma finds the notebook from Future Bulma inside the time machine.
This seems really straightforward and I'm unaware of any ambiguity or bad translation issues regarding it.
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Re: Fact Checker (update: Ep.51)

Post by Chiki » Wed Aug 10, 2016 7:14 am

08:00 | Whis: "That "Black" is quite powerful."
 08:05 | Beerus: "Son Goku, yet not Son Goku... That's what I feel from that "Black" person's ki."

Significance: Speedsubs mishandled this line, claiming Goku and Black's ki had no similarities whatsoever.
No, speedsubbers got that line right and you got it wrong, since ep 54 confirmed that Goku and Black have no similarities in ki whatsoever.

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Re: Fact Checker (update: Ep.51)

Post by Luso Saiyan » Wed Aug 10, 2016 7:18 am

Chiki wrote:No, speedsubbers got that line right and you got it wrong, since ep 54 confirmed that Goku and Black have no similarities in ki whatsoever.
That dialogue and respective translation is not from Ep. 54. And they did get the translation wrong, as explained above.

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Re: Fact Checker (update: Ep.51)

Post by Chiki » Wed Aug 10, 2016 7:32 am

Luso Saiyan wrote:
Chiki wrote:No, speedsubbers got that line right and you got it wrong, since ep 54 confirmed that Goku and Black have no similarities in ki whatsoever.
That dialogue and respective translation is not from Ep. 54. And they did get the translation wrong, as explained above.
It's not, but ep 54 says that there are no similarities in ki whatsoever between Goku and Black (with a flashback to the Goku and Black fight in ep 50 when the statement was made), meaning they got the translation wrong and the speedsubbers' interpretation was the right one, since the speedsubbers interpretation works and this one does not work.

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Re: Fact Checker (update: Ep.51)

Post by Puto » Wed Aug 10, 2016 8:03 am

Uh, what? Episode 54 says nothing of the sort. The closest thing Episode 54 comes to talking about ki resembling somebody is this:
In other words, there was nothing that linked Zamasu to Black?
Indeed.
But you all felt Zamasu's ki from Black, right? What if Zamasu disguised himself as Black, or turned himself into a human using his divine powers? Are you saying that there was no chance of either of those?
Zamasu and Black were far too different for us to conclude that they were the same being.
What we felt from Black was an immense evil ki.
But Zamasu didn't have that level of evil in him.
Furthermore, Zamasu did not know Goku-san, whereas Black spoke as if he did know him.
That's another thing that makes them different: Their ki may be similar, but at the moment, it's hard to connect them from that alone.
There was ZERO comparison between Goku and Black's ki in this episode, only between Black and Zamasu.
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Re: Fact Checker (update: Ep.51)

Post by Chiki » Wed Aug 10, 2016 8:29 am

Puto wrote:Uh, what? Episode 54 says nothing of the sort. The closest thing Episode 54 comes to talking about ki resembling somebody is this:
In other words, there was nothing that linked Zamasu to Black?
Indeed.
But you all felt Zamasu's ki from Black, right? What if Zamasu disguised himself as Black, or turned himself into a human using his divine powers? Are you saying that there was no chance of either of those?
Zamasu and Black were far too different for us to conclude that they were the same being.
What we felt from Black was an immense evil ki.
But Zamasu didn't have that level of evil in him.
Furthermore, Zamasu did not know Goku-san, whereas Black spoke as if he did know him.
That's another thing that makes them different: Their ki may be similar, but at the moment, it's hard to connect them from that alone.
There was ZERO comparison between Goku and Black's ki in this episode, only between Black and Zamasu.
I think English might not be your first language, but it is clearly implicated that Black does not have any of Goku's ki in him. Whis compares Black and Zamasu's ki, mentioning only that the difference between them is that Black's ki is more evil. No other difference is mentioned. Therefore, Black does not have any of Goku's ki in him. This is an important rule of conversations: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Implicature. When they are talking about the differences in ki between them, you are conversationally obligated to mention all the differences between their ki. The fact that Whis did not mention Black and Goku's ki being mixed proves that they are not mixed at all.

What you are suggesting is absurd and it violates something called the "law of quantity." People have to be as informative as possible. For example, suppose Stalin said "I killed a couple people in my Great Purge." It is technically true, but incredibly misleading, since he killed like 30 million people and not just 2. So if Stalin said that he would be violating the law of quantity. Same deal with Whis. What you are suggesting makes Whis violate one of the most basic laws of conversations.

People simply don't talk like that, and there's no reason why people in Toei would so subtly make Whis talk so awkwardly.

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Re: Fact Checker (update: Ep.51)

Post by Luso Saiyan » Wed Aug 10, 2016 11:37 am

Chiki wrote:No other difference is mentioned. Therefore, Black does not have any of Goku's ki in him.
Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. And that doesn't change what he said in Ep. 51. It was mistranslated by the fansubs.
Last edited by Luso Saiyan on Wed Aug 10, 2016 11:39 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Fact Checker (update: Ep.51)

Post by RedRibbonSoldier#42 » Wed Aug 10, 2016 11:37 am

Chiki wrote:
Puto wrote:Uh, what? Episode 54 says nothing of the sort. The closest thing Episode 54 comes to talking about ki resembling somebody is this:
In other words, there was nothing that linked Zamasu to Black?
Indeed.
But you all felt Zamasu's ki from Black, right? What if Zamasu disguised himself as Black, or turned himself into a human using his divine powers? Are you saying that there was no chance of either of those?
Zamasu and Black were far too different for us to conclude that they were the same being.
What we felt from Black was an immense evil ki.
But Zamasu didn't have that level of evil in him.
Furthermore, Zamasu did not know Goku-san, whereas Black spoke as if he did know him.
That's another thing that makes them different: Their ki may be similar, but at the moment, it's hard to connect them from that alone.
There was ZERO comparison between Goku and Black's ki in this episode, only between Black and Zamasu.
I think English might not be your first language, but it is clearly implicated that Black does not have any of Goku's ki in him. Whis compares Black and Zamasu's ki, mentioning only that the difference between them is that Black's ki is more evil. No other difference is mentioned. Therefore, Black does not have any of Goku's ki in him. This is an important rule of conversations: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Implicature. When they are talking about the differences in ki between them, you are conversationally obligated to mention all the differences between their ki. The fact that Whis did not mention Black and Goku's ki being mixed proves that they are not mixed at all.

What you are suggesting is absurd and it violates something called the "law of quantity." People have to be as informative as possible. For example, suppose Stalin said "I killed a couple people in my Great Purge." It is technically true, but incredibly misleading, since he killed like 30 million people and not just 2. So if Stalin said that he would be violating the law of quantity. Same deal with Whis. What you are suggesting makes Whis violate one of the most basic laws of conversations.

People simply don't talk like that, and there's no reason why people in Toei would so subtly make Whis talk so awkwardly.
Well, English is my first language and I've never heard of this "you must say everything you know everytime you talk". Black was previously established to have ki resembling Gokuu's and it was not disproven at all this last episode.

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Re: Fact Checker (update: Ep.51)

Post by Chiki » Wed Aug 10, 2016 1:07 pm

Luso Saiyan wrote:
Chiki wrote:No other difference is mentioned. Therefore, Black does not have any of Goku's ki in him.
Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. And that doesn't change what he said in Ep. 51. It was mistranslated by the fansubs.
Well, English is my first language and I've never heard of this "you must say everything you know everytime you talk". Black was previously established to have ki resembling Gokuu's and it was not disproven at all this last episode.
Such arguments don't work on implicatures, which are a different beast altogether.

To give you an example, suppose Barack Obama said "I'm 4 feet tall." Technically true, since he's 4 feet tall up to his, say, belly, but incredibly misleading since he is over 6 feet tall. That violates the maxim of quantity--i.e. not being as informative as possible.

Similarly, Whis saying only that the difference between Zamasu and Black's ki is that Black's ki is more evil would be an identically awkward violation of the maxim of quantity.

People don't talk like this in real life. I don't see why Toei script writers would talk like this just so you guys can keep up the fantasy that Goku's ki is in Black's ki, which is false and there's no evidence for it, and that includes Beerus's line about Goku and Black, which can be interpreted as talking about Goku's appearance and Black's ki.

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Re: Fact Checker (update: Ep.51)

Post by Luso Saiyan » Wed Aug 10, 2016 1:51 pm

Chiki wrote:I don't see why Toei script writers would talk like this just so you guys can keep up the fantasy that Goku's ki is in Black's ki, which is false and there's no evidence for it, and that includes Beerus's line about Goku and Black, which can be interpreted as talking about Goku's appearance and Black's ki.
Yes, it can be interpreted that way, and it may even be a correct interpretation. But the point is that it's just that: an interpretation. What he said is what's in the fact checker, not what the subbers interpreted. So yes, they were wrong with their translation. Wether their interpretation was right or wrong is irrelevant as far as the translation goes.

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Re: Fact Checker (update: Ep.51)

Post by Chiki » Wed Aug 10, 2016 2:16 pm

Luso Saiyan wrote:
Chiki wrote:I don't see why Toei script writers would talk like this just so you guys can keep up the fantasy that Goku's ki is in Black's ki, which is false and there's no evidence for it, and that includes Beerus's line about Goku and Black, which can be interpreted as talking about Goku's appearance and Black's ki.
Yes, it can be interpreted that way, and it may even be a correct interpretation. But the point is that it's just that: an interpretation. What he said is what's in the fact checker, not what the subbers interpreted. So yes, they were wrong with their translation. Wether their interpretation was right or wrong is irrelevant as far as the translation goes.
I agree, but the incorrect bit is this and needs to be changed:
Significance: Speedsubs mishandled this line, claiming Goku and Black's ki had no similarities whatsoever.
Speedsubbers got this right for once, and I'm tired of the elitist subbers here who constantly criticize the speedsubbers who do a great service to fans like me by getting early subs out.

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Re: Fact Checker (update: Ep.51)

Post by Puto » Wed Aug 10, 2016 2:55 pm

If what a subtitle has is not what is being said in Japanese, then the subtitle is wrong, even if the idea presented in it coincidentally turns out to be true.

As an example taken to absurdity, if, say, a Bulma line which in Japanese is saying something about fixing the time machine got subtitled as "Vegeta is awesome!", then the subtitle would be wrong, even if it turns out Vegeta truly is awesome. The information in the mistranslated subtitle being correct does not change the fact that it's still a translation error.
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Re: Fact Checker (update: Ep.51)

Post by Luso Saiyan » Wed Aug 10, 2016 3:12 pm

Chiki wrote:I agree, but the incorrect bit is this and needs to be changed:
No, it doesn't because what's in the fact checker is true. They didn't translate it correctly. Beerus never said that "Goku and Black's ki had no similarities whatsoever", therefore they are wrong.

P.S: It's not a matter of elitism, but accuracy and being precise. A character said X, not Y. Even if Y turns out to be true in future content.

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Re: Fact Checker (update: Ep.51)

Post by Chiki » Wed Aug 10, 2016 3:19 pm

Luso Saiyan wrote:
Chiki wrote:I agree, but the incorrect bit is this and needs to be changed:
No, it doesn't because what's in the fact checker is true. They didn't translate it correctly. Beerus never said that "Goku and Black's ki had no similarities whatsoever", therefore they are wrong.
The speedsubbers' translation is:
This isn't Son Goku fighting Son Goku. This Black fellow's ki feels different.
Given that I showed in ep 54, Whis implicated that Black's ki has no similarities with Goku's, the interpretation is more correct than the one given here, which is completely wrong and misleading. Interpretation is, after all, more important than just the words you translate, and the speedsubbers were closer to the truth with this one.

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Re: Fact Checker (update: Ep.51)

Post by Luso Saiyan » Wed Aug 10, 2016 3:23 pm

Chiki wrote:The speedsubbers' translation is:
This isn't Son Goku fighting Son Goku. This Black fellow's ki feels different.
And what's actually said is:
Son Goku, yet not Son Goku... That's what I feel from that "Black" person's ki.
Chiki wrote:Given that I showed in ep 54, Whis implicated that Black's ki has no similarities with Goku's, the interpretation is more correct than the one given here,
Except what's in the fact checker is not an interpretation, but what's actually said by the character in the episode. Learn the difference.

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Re: Fact Checker (update: Ep.51)

Post by Freeza Heika » Wed Aug 10, 2016 3:25 pm

Chiki wrote:
Luso Saiyan wrote:
Chiki wrote:I agree, but the incorrect bit is this and needs to be changed:
No, it doesn't because what's in the fact checker is true. They didn't translate it correctly. Beerus never said that "Goku and Black's ki had no similarities whatsoever", therefore they are wrong.
The speedsubbers' translation is:
This isn't Son Goku fighting Son Goku. This Black fellow's ki feels different.
Given that I showed in ep 54, Whis implicated that Black's ki has no similarities with Goku's, the interpretation is more correct than the one given here, which is completely wrong and misleading. Interpretation is, after all, more important than just the words you translate, and the speedsubbers were closer to the truth with this one.
Every single thing you say is based on a translation that is wrong. Stop being tautological.
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Re: Fact Checker (update: Ep.51)

Post by Chiki » Wed Aug 10, 2016 3:28 pm

Luso Saiyan wrote:
Chiki wrote:The speedsubbers' translation is:
This isn't Son Goku fighting Son Goku. This Black fellow's ki feels different.
And what's actually said is:
Son Goku, yet not Son Goku... That's what I feel from that "Black" person's ki.
Chiki wrote:Given that I showed in ep 54, Whis implicated that Black's ki has no similarities with Goku's, the interpretation is more correct than the one given here,
Except what's in the fact checker is not an interpretation, but what's actually said by the character in the episode. Learn the difference.
The way you're acting is really weird. I'm telling you that ep 54 proved that Black's ki doesn't have Goku's ki in him, and you seemed to agree with that. So what are you disagreeing with?
Significance: Speedsubs mishandled this line, claiming Goku and Black's ki had no similarities whatsoever.
Bolded part here is basic English and implies that the subbers here do think that Goku and Black's ki have similarities (and ask the subbers here themselves, they think Goku and Black's ki are similar). This was mistaken, since ep 54 proves that they do not have any similarities whatsoever. Black has Zamasu's ki, just more evil and that's that. Whis would have mentioned it otherwise, and Goku would have mentioned it otherwise in ep 53. Neither do.
Every single thing you say is based on a translation that is wrong. Stop being tautological.
LOL. Have you been reading my posts here at all? Every single thing I say is based on what Whis said in ep 54 about Black and Zamasu having the same ki except Black's is more evil.

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Re: Fact Checker (update: Ep.51)

Post by Luso Saiyan » Wed Aug 10, 2016 3:34 pm

Chiki wrote:The way you're acting is really weird.
No, it isn't. You don't seem to know the difference between fact and speculation/interpretation. What Beerus said in Ep. 51 is what's in the fact checker. Not what the subbers interpreted and ended up writing. They are different.

Honestly, this is going around in circles and I'm tired of repeating myself.

"This isn't Son Goku fighting Son Goku. This Black fellow's ki feels different." "Son Goku, yet not Son Goku... That's what I feel from that "Black" person's ki."

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Re: Fact Checker (update: Ep.51)

Post by Chiki » Wed Aug 10, 2016 3:49 pm

Luso Saiyan wrote:
Chiki wrote:The way you're acting is really weird.
No, it isn't. You don't seem to know the difference between fact and speculation/interpretation. What Beerus said in Ep. 51 is what's in the fact checker. Not what the subbers interpreted and ended up writing. They are different.

Honestly, this is going around in circles and I'm tired of repeating myself.

"This isn't Son Goku fighting Son Goku. This Black fellow's ki feels different." "Son Goku, yet not Son Goku... That's what I feel from that "Black" person's ki."
What the subbers interpreted, though, is not fact and that's the problem. Beerus's sentence "Son Goku, yet not Son Goku" can be read as "He looks like Son Goku, yet his ki doesn't feel like Son Goku's." Is that the case in Japanese too? Unless you assume the scriptwriters in Toei made a mistake since ep 54 confirmed that Black's ki does not have Goku's ki, then yes it is the case in Japanese too.

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