Do we have too high expectations for Super?

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: Do we have too high expectations for Super?

Post by Hero » Sun Aug 23, 2015 7:43 pm

I feel like I had a different experience with DB/ DBZ than most people so my views on the new material are different too.

I only started watching DB and DBZ in late 2013 and early 2014 so I was able to see the theatrical release of BoG right after being done with the actual series... and I loved it! BoG felt no different than the two series for me because I had just watched them vs. had years to think about them and grow up. "F" was the same thing. Yes, the deus ex machina in the end is cheap, but Goku learned a lesson from it, and is it really that different than something like the holy water making Goku a match for King Piccolo?

I loved BoG and "F" but because of that I had high expectations for Super going in.... and yeah, let's just leave it there haha.

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Re: Do we have too high expectations for Super?

Post by ekrolo2 » Sun Aug 23, 2015 7:46 pm

Hero wrote:I feel like I had a different experience with DB/ DBZ than most people so my views on the new material are different too.

I only started watching DB and DBZ in late 2013 and early 2014 so I was able to see the theatrical release of BoG right after being done with the actual series... and I loved it! BoG felt no different than the two series for me because I had just watched them vs. had years to think about them and grow up. "F" was the same thing. Yes, the deus ex machina in the end is cheap, but Goku learned a lesson from it, and is it really that different than something like the holy water making Goku a match for King Piccolo?

I loved BoG and "F" but because of that I had high expectations for Super going in.... and yeah, let's just leave it there haha.
He already learned not to be an arrogant ass in BoG, F is just making stuff up to give the illusion of progression.
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Re: Do we have too high expectations for Super?

Post by Hero » Sun Aug 23, 2015 8:00 pm

ekrolo2 wrote:
Hero wrote:I feel like I had a different experience with DB/ DBZ than most people so my views on the new material are different too.

I only started watching DB and DBZ in late 2013 and early 2014 so I was able to see the theatrical release of BoG right after being done with the actual series... and I loved it! BoG felt no different than the two series for me because I had just watched them vs. had years to think about them and grow up. "F" was the same thing. Yes, the deus ex machina in the end is cheap, but Goku learned a lesson from it, and is it really that different than something like the holy water making Goku a match for King Piccolo?

I loved BoG and "F" but because of that I had high expectations for Super going in.... and yeah, let's just leave it there haha.
He already learned not to be an arrogant ass in BoG, F is just making stuff up to give the illusion of progression.
When did Goku learn not to be arrogant in BoG? I know the lesson of giving up your pride that he and Vegeta learned but nothing about arrogance.

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Re: Do we have too high expectations for Super?

Post by ekrolo2 » Sun Aug 23, 2015 8:28 pm

Hero wrote:
ekrolo2 wrote:
Hero wrote:I feel like I had a different experience with DB/ DBZ than most people so my views on the new material are different too.

I only started watching DB and DBZ in late 2013 and early 2014 so I was able to see the theatrical release of BoG right after being done with the actual series... and I loved it! BoG felt no different than the two series for me because I had just watched them vs. had years to think about them and grow up. "F" was the same thing. Yes, the deus ex machina in the end is cheap, but Goku learned a lesson from it, and is it really that different than something like the holy water making Goku a match for King Piccolo?

I loved BoG and "F" but because of that I had high expectations for Super going in.... and yeah, let's just leave it there haha.
He already learned not to be an arrogant ass in BoG, F is just making stuff up to give the illusion of progression.
When did Goku learn not to be arrogant in BoG? I know the lesson of giving up your pride that he and Vegeta learned but nothing about arrogance.
Goku powered up to Super Saiyan 3 in the movie then, feeling really cocky about himself, asked him if he (Beerus) wants him to dial it back to Super Saiyan 2. Then after just barely stopping Beerus' attack intended to blow up the Earth, Goku admits that Beerus is in-fact a lot stronger than him and that he can't beat him as he is now. Beerus confirms this saying "So you finally understand the power of Beerus the God of Destruction!" and gives him the whole multiverse, stronger beings out there speech. Another hint to his arrogance is when they learn about the six Saiyan's needed for the ritual both Piccolo and Roshi exclude Goku from the list of worthwhile candidates. Suspecting he's leading his battle junkie needs override all else, which is confirmed in the end by him letting everyone get smacked around against Beerus when he could've intervened immediately to study Beerus' moves.

It makes sense for him to get arrogant too, he beat Majin Buu, long hailed as the most powerful being in the universe plus he beat Freeza before that and assisted with killing Cell. Anyone with that kind of track record would get cocky but then Beerus knocks him down a few pegs and reminds him there'll always be those stronger.
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Re: Do we have too high expectations for Super?

Post by EXBadguy » Sun Aug 23, 2015 11:37 pm

I'd say yes and no. Now, I know the original series has inconsistencies here and there(though most of it you can figure it out on your own), but what I hope to expect from Toriyama in the future is improvement in his storytelling, cuz it's 2015, and standards have changed. I mean, most of DBZ(Saiyan-Cell) have been critcally acclaimed for its story, regardless of the very few inconsistencies, so I don't see why it's a bad thing to expect the new series to have the same quality in the storyelling and tone. I'm definitely aware of setting expectations really really high through the roof(after all, it happened to me with BoG and RF)

Also honestly, and I know this'll hurt some people's feelings and have me sound like a hypocrite, but I personally think it's an insult to Toriyama to set expectations to the bare minimum by not expecting much from him in this day and age where half the Shonen manga series are trying to have respectable stories. It's like treating X as a mentally....slow child and treating Y as a normal person. If that's the case, then Super could've been at a lower category where Pokemon is.

Again, no hard feelings towards anyone here who don't expect much from him, but for me, I think I'd be insulting him if I did that becuz of inconsistencies in the past to which he can evolve over the years.
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As much as I think that Toei can do better storytelling(Movie 8 for example), I agree. With the animation being one of the biggest reasons. I haven't watched Super yet, but I've seen this(good lord...).
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Re: Do we have too high expectations for Super?

Post by irreality » Mon Aug 24, 2015 12:04 am

Well, I don't think I set *my* expectations too high. I'm enjoying DBS almost without reservation. I think it is funny and fun and pretty well-paced: they are following logical "storypoint breaks" to adapt BoG. Everything they have added story and character wise has been either cute, hilarious or dramatic in good ways and I love it. I like that they are building a coherent narrative flowing from after Buu that anyone can watch without pre-requisites of movies, and I love the character moments they are giving us.

I never expected awesome animation because DBZ didn't have awesome animation as a rule (I mean, some key episodes did, but I didn't watch 100s of episodes of good animation, for sure). It is a weekly morning series, I'm not expecting anything in that department. I think that although the motion-scenes could use some love, the closeups have been pretty good, and even when the drawings were sketchy, everyone has looked recognizable, so I can't complain.

I think people's expectations are unrealistic, tbh. There is so much complaining about BoG being retold, for example. We were told this going in. Everyone knew it was going to happen. It is logical they were extending BoG, so expecting only 5 episodes of material is unrealistic. If people don't like it, they have to option of waiting a few months. Yet thread after thread people are asking "is it over yet? can they rush through BoG? Why are they doing this?" It gets old. This should have been part of your expectations.

Or being shocked that DBS doesn't have the pacing or quality of a feature movie. Of course not! Which regular, long running tv series (animated or not) get similar treatment to a movie? It is like expecting a Star Trek tv series to have the pacing or quality of a Star Trek movie (ok, one of the good ones).

Anyway… I like DBS -- it has met or exceeded my expectations.

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Re: Do we have too high expectations for Super?

Post by DragonHermit » Mon Aug 24, 2015 2:50 am

Yes, we do. But let's be fair. Imagine watching Super for the first time, without watching the two movies. People's estimation would be much higher than it is now. That's why we have to be patient.

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Re: Do we have too high expectations for Super?

Post by fexus » Mon Aug 24, 2015 4:03 am

Too high expectations? No. Low expectations? Still no. I have expectations for more DB. That's it. I loved BoG and RoF. So, it doesn't really matter to me as to what Super does until it finishes those arc. There might be something different from Super and the movies and that's the part I'm excited for. Everything else is quite the same and I don't care that much for that part because I've seen it.
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Re: Do we have too high expectations for Super?

Post by Cipher » Mon Aug 24, 2015 4:15 am

EXBadguy wrote:I'd say yes and no. Now, I know the original series has inconsistencies here and there(though most of it you can figure it out on your own), but what I hope to expect from Toriyama in the future is improvement in his storytelling, cuz it's 2015, and standards have changed. I mean, most of DBZ(Saiyan-Cell) have been critcally acclaimed for its story, regardless of the very few inconsistencies, so I don't see why it's a bad thing to expect the new series to have the same quality in the storyelling and tone.
I don't know why anyone would come in now expecting Saiyan-Cell-like writing from Toriyama when they're such anomalies in his catalogue, and clearly not what he's interested in doing tonally or thematically. Kei17 actually had a great little piece in the Kanzenshuu 30th Anniversary e-zine about how those arcs never felt consistent with the Toriyama/Dragon Ball spirit to him (which, he proposed, like Dr. Slump, derives a lot of its energy and pleasure from a central, basically optimistic and magnetic character shrinking an ever-expanding world around them). The arcs you cite do a lot to finish some intellectual through-lines of the series, but never feel quite in-tone with the rest.

Battle of Gods, "F" and Super are all exactly what I'd expect from Toriyama. And far from being an insult, their underlying whimsy is exactly what I feel gives the series its strength.

Super can absolutely be critiqued on the production side, where -- although I think unfavorable comparisons to Z are a little rose-tinted toward the previous series -- Toei could step up its game, or even for some of its smaller pacing choices (what is the Pilaf gang doing and why don't we know why they're children yet), but its central plot elements as borrowed from the film, and the films themselves, are fundamental Toriyama. And I'm liking, for the most part, Super, and will be glad to have the series in the future. All things considered, and as someone who hasn't seen the film enough times to be super familiar with it or burned out on it, I think it's giving us some engaging material. I also think any of the complaints about its tension would go out the window if we didn't have the film as a basis, so it's not as far removed from some of the more self-serious portions as I think is often proposed.

But all the new material is very Toriyama. I think a lot of people might continue to hate it precisely for that reason. C'est la vie. I'm getting exactly what I expected -- with all the blemishes of a weekly TV anime I expected (the same ones that have "marred" the series its entire life) -- and I'm quite enjoying the ride.

I also want to posit that I think much of the negativity -- and I'm aware VegettoEX has said something similar to this -- is more the result of fans being able to follow a completely new Dragon Ball series on a weekly basis with the Internet for the first time. If we'd all been here discussing Z as it aired in Japan, with a week to reflect upon each episode and having already read or being familiar with the plot of the manga, we'd be seeing all the outrage in the world over poor pacing, bad animation and badly handled scene-by-scene adaptations. Like, we just absolutely would. We'd be assuaging fears about the impending cancellation series on a weekly basis. With every Last House episode, we'd have to discuss how little Toei cares about their biggest series; with every Maeda entry the day would be saved. Weekly discussions on the Namek/Freeza arc would've been a god damn nightmare. Piccolo kicking Freeza away from the Genki Dama being slow and weird in the anime when it looks so quick and powerful in the manga would've received a three-page discussion with pictorial comparisons. We'd be wondering why Toei couldn't get it right.

EDIT --

I'm actually going to go ahead and say that, personally, Super has exceeded my expectations, because I've walked away from six of seven episodes with a huge smile on my face despite expecting to be lukewarm on the whole thing. No single under-performing episode is going to sour the for me due to realistic expectations about the way a weekly morning series works and a pretty fresh viewing of Kai to compare it to.

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Re: Do we have too high expectations for Super?

Post by Cetra » Mon Aug 24, 2015 5:56 am

Yes, people have. Why? Because they expect it to be like they think they know Dragon Ball. Their opinion on Dragon Ball is very high so as they expect it to be like it, their expectations are automatically high as well.
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Re: Do we have too high expectations for Super?

Post by EXBadguy » Mon Aug 24, 2015 11:01 am

Cipher wrote: I don't know why anyone would come in now expecting Saiyan-Cell-like writing from Toriyama
What're you talking about? Many folks outside this community were expecting the new material to have the quality as the first three sagas before BoG was announced.
Cipher wrote:There are anomalies in his catalogue, and it's clearly not what he's interested in doing tonally or thematically. Kei17 actually had a great little piece in the Kanzenshuu 30th Anniversary e-zine about how those arcs never felt consistent with the Toriyama/Dragon Ball spirit to him (which, he proposed, like Dr. Slump, derives a lot of its energy and pleasure from a central, basically optimistic and magnetic character shrinking an ever-expanding world around them). The arcs you cite do a lot to finish some intellectual through-lines of the series, but never feel quite in-tone with the rest.
So I've liked Toriyama for the wrong reasons, then? And if that's the case, I have no interest in watching Super or any of the new material that he makes, ever. I give up, fuck it. I could honestly care less about the animation, regardless of its shitty quality, but all my hope for Toriyama to improve are gone now. I guess I shouldn't be surprised if Toriyama made a inconsistent flashback of Super Buu destroying the Earth when it was actually Kid Buu, huh. The old Toriyama will always be awesome. but the Toriyama now, nope, but I do wish him the best.

I do hope one day a good writer at Toei will do a Dragon Ball spin-off series that will cater to the old fans who liked DB from King Piccolo-Cell for its semi-dark and semi-intellectual storytelling, cuz some of the old movies did have better writing the the last two new movies, so there's definitely potential for Toei to improve in that area.
Last edited by EXBadguy on Mon Aug 24, 2015 11:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Do we have too high expectations for Super?

Post by Doctor. » Mon Aug 24, 2015 11:03 am

EXBadguy wrote:What're you talking about? Many folks outside this community were expecting the new material to have the quality as the first three sagas before BoG was announced.
He wasn't saying that people didn't expect that kind of writing. He was asking why.

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Re: Do we have too high expectations for Super?

Post by EXBadguy » Mon Aug 24, 2015 11:25 am

Doctor. wrote:
EXBadguy wrote:What're you talking about? Many folks outside this community were expecting the new material to have the quality as the first three sagas before BoG was announced.
He wasn't saying that people didn't expect that kind of writing. He was asking why.
You haven't looked at the manga sales during the King Piccolo-Cell timeline and the ratings for the Frieza and Cell sagas of the original DBZ in Japan?
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Re: Do we have too high expectations for Super?

Post by Ushabtis » Mon Aug 24, 2015 12:02 pm

too high of expectations? its the first new Dragon Ball series content in 18 years and its being lead by Toriyama of course the bar was set very high. and for the most part its just a dragged out Z style filler fest of a movie. but I know Toriyama can do something interesting. I'm looking forward to the ROF arc (seeing the changes and Jaco) because that movie definitely need some more time to be expanded.
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Re: Do we have too high expectations for Super?

Post by ckal9 » Mon Aug 24, 2015 12:35 pm

I think DBS will get better over time. It is by no means bad right now but has been somewhat underwhelming thus far. If DBS wasn't retelling BOG and RoF I think people would be much easier on it and give the chance it deserves to recapture our imaginations and feelings of childhood.

I am enjoying it so far, and now that the action is going and the story picking up pace, it will only get better from here.


Stick with it! We at least owe DBZ that much.

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Re: Do we have too high expectations for Super?

Post by MCDaveG » Mon Aug 24, 2015 1:14 pm

Well, yes, I had. I wanted to see Champa like in the comic and more of a different story. BoG is superior for me.
The first episode was good and after seeing 6 episodes, it is little boring and subpar to BoG with writing.

Not to mention horrendous episode 5.
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Re: Do we have too high expectations for Super?

Post by VintageSaiyan » Mon Aug 24, 2015 7:09 pm

Cipher wrote: although I think unfavorable comparisons to Z are a little rose-tinted toward the previous series --
This is so annoying and it's being thrown around every single time somebody criticizes Super. IMO the "rose tinted glasses" are being worn by those that defend this steaming pile of turd, it has nothing to do with nostalgia and everything to do with standards.

-The animation/art design is terrible. It's bottom tier especially when you look at other productions. Z wasn't always consistent, but I can still watch it and be entertained. You know why? Because the fight choreography was interesting, the characters had motives, and there were consequences. Z's average day is better than Super's best so far. Super's fights consist of badly animated punches being thrown for a few minutes - it's terrible. (I would take almost any episode from the Pikkon filler over Super.) And when Z's animation was on, it was fucking on.
-Characters are wild caricatures of themselves, relying on using the same basic tropes we've been used to except wildly exaggerated.
"Oh look, Buu is being a fat dick again! Haha :D"
"Oh, there goes Vegeta again. He's so angry and prideful :lol: "
"

-The pacing is awful. And this coming from someone who recognizes that Z was pretty bad at it too, but at least there was a build up of tension.
-There is no story. Some angry cat god is destroying planets for who the fuck cares. There is no sense of danger, of consequences, etc. He just exists and all a sudden there's a Captain Planet ritual to summon a palette swap of Goku.
-Why are people saying that we should excuse the fact that there are so many inconsistencies because "that's how Toriyama always was." Excuse me, what? There were plotholes, but it was never so incredibly bad where it was distracting. It's almost as if the previous sagas didn't exist. Either Toriyama isn't as involved as we're led to believe or he simply doesn't give a shit anymore.

-People argue that Dragonball is going back to it's roots. Well guess what - when Dragonball was created, we had a whole world to explore with interesting characters who weren't walking tropes. When Z came along, we were introduced to a darker tone and a whole slew of new concepts. With Super, we're given neither. Instead we're given little rehashes of previous cliches that don't introduce anything new. Will the universe 6 arc change things? Really doubt it at this point. I don't think that expecting great characterization (which the series was known for), consistency, decent animation & art direction, and a story that doesn't drag its ass on the ground pretending to be a Shojo are high expectations. I could have easily forgiven the piss poor animation if Toei or Toriyama actually gave a shit about what they were writing. I hated GT, but Super is right up there with it. And if you ask any community outside of use crazy Dragonball fans, Super is practically unwatchable. The only reason people watch it is because it has the appearance of the same characters we've all grown to love - it's the same way with all the terrible Dragonball games. People bought it because lol you can Kamehameha with Goku. If dragonball was never a thing and the same game came out, nobody would buy it. I feel the same way about Super - nobody would watch this if the characters didn't look like the ones we grew up with which is the only thing keeping Super alive.

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Re: Do we have too high expectations for Super?

Post by DBZAOTA482 » Mon Aug 24, 2015 7:16 pm

VintageSaiyan wrote:
Cipher wrote: although I think unfavorable comparisons to Z are a little rose-tinted toward the previous series --
This is so annoying and it's being thrown around every single time somebody criticizes Super. IMO the "rose tinted glasses" are being worn by those that defend this steaming pile of turd, it has nothing to do with nostalgia and everything to do with standards.

-The animation/art design is terrible. It's bottom tier especially when you look at other productions. Z wasn't always consistent, but I can still watch it and be entertained. You know why? Because the fight choreography was interesting, the characters had motives, and there were consequences. Z's average day is better than Super's best so far. Super's fights consist of badly animated punches being thrown for a few minutes - it's terrible. (I would take almost any episode from the Paikuhan filler over Super.) And when Z's animation was on, it was fucking on.
-Characters are wild caricatures of themselves, relying on using the same basic tropes we've been used to except wildly exaggerated.
"Oh look, Buu is being a fat dick again! Haha :D"
"Oh, there goes Vegeta again. He's so angry and prideful :lol: "
"

-The pacing is awful. And this coming from someone who recognizes that Z was pretty bad at it too, but at least there was a build up of tension.
-There is no story. Some angry cat god is destroying planets for who the fuck cares. There is no sense of danger, of consequences, etc. He just exists and all a sudden there's a Captain Planet ritual to summon a palette swap of Goku.
-Why are people saying that we should excuse the fact that there are so many inconsistencies because "that's how Toriyama always was." Excuse me, what? There were plotholes, but it was never so incredibly bad where it was distracting. It's almost as if the previous sagas didn't exist. Either Toriyama isn't as involved as we're led to believe or he simply doesn't give a shit anymore.

-People argue that Dragonball is going back to it's roots. Well guess what - when Dragonball was created, we had a whole world to explore with interesting characters who weren't walking tropes. When Z came along, we were introduced to a darker tone and a whole slew of new concepts. With Super, we're given neither. Instead we're given little rehashes of previous cliches that don't introduce anything new. Will the universe 6 arc change things? Really doubt it at this point. I don't think that expecting great characterization (which the series was known for), consistency, decent animation & art direction, and a story that doesn't drag its ass on the ground pretending to be a Shojo are high expectations. I could have easily forgiven the piss poor animation if Toei or Toriyama actually gave a shit about what they were writing. I hated GT, but Super is right up there with it. And if you ask any community outside of use crazy Dragonball fans, Super is practically unwatchable. The only reason people watch it is because it has the appearance of the same characters we've all grown to love - it's the same way with all the terrible Dragonball games. People bought it because lol you can Kamehameha with Goku. If dragonball was never a thing and the same game came out, nobody would buy it. I feel the same way about Super - nobody would watch this if the characters didn't look like the ones we grew up with which is the only thing keeping Super alive.
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Re: Do we have too high expectations for Super?

Post by VintageSaiyan » Mon Aug 24, 2015 7:18 pm

DBZAOTA482 wrote:
VintageSaiyan wrote:
Cipher wrote: although I think unfavorable comparisons to Z are a little rose-tinted toward the previous series --
This is so annoying and it's being thrown around every single time somebody criticizes Super. IMO the "rose tinted glasses" are being worn by those that defend this steaming pile of turd, it has nothing to do with nostalgia and everything to do with standards.

-The animation/art design is terrible. It's bottom tier especially when you look at other productions. Z wasn't always consistent, but I can still watch it and be entertained. You know why? Because the fight choreography was interesting, the characters had motives, and there were consequences. Z's average day is better than Super's best so far. Super's fights consist of badly animated punches being thrown for a few minutes - it's terrible. (I would take almost any episode from the Paikuhan filler over Super.) And when Z's animation was on, it was fucking on.
-Characters are wild caricatures of themselves, relying on using the same basic tropes we've been used to except wildly exaggerated.
"Oh look, Buu is being a fat dick again! Haha :D"
"Oh, there goes Vegeta again. He's so angry and prideful :lol: "
"

-The pacing is awful. And this coming from someone who recognizes that Z was pretty bad at it too, but at least there was a build up of tension.
-There is no story. Some angry cat god is destroying planets for who the fuck cares. There is no sense of danger, of consequences, etc. He just exists and all a sudden there's a Captain Planet ritual to summon a palette swap of Goku.
-Why are people saying that we should excuse the fact that there are so many inconsistencies because "that's how Toriyama always was." Excuse me, what? There were plotholes, but it was never so incredibly bad where it was distracting. It's almost as if the previous sagas didn't exist. Either Toriyama isn't as involved as we're led to believe or he simply doesn't give a shit anymore.

-People argue that Dragonball is going back to it's roots. Well guess what - when Dragonball was created, we had a whole world to explore with interesting characters who weren't walking tropes. When Z came along, we were introduced to a darker tone and a whole slew of new concepts. With Super, we're given neither. Instead we're given little rehashes of previous cliches that don't introduce anything new. Will the universe 6 arc change things? Really doubt it at this point. I don't think that expecting great characterization (which the series was known for), consistency, decent animation & art direction, and a story that doesn't drag its ass on the ground pretending to be a Shojo are high expectations. I could have easily forgiven the piss poor animation if Toei or Toriyama actually gave a shit about what they were writing. I hated GT, but Super is right up there with it. And if you ask any community outside of use crazy Dragonball fans, Super is practically unwatchable. The only reason people watch it is because it has the appearance of the same characters we've all grown to love - it's the same way with all the terrible Dragonball games. People bought it because lol you can Kamehameha with Goku. If dragonball was never a thing and the same game came out, nobody would buy it. I feel the same way about Super - nobody would watch this if the characters didn't look like the ones we grew up with which is the only thing keeping Super alive.
If you don't like the anime, read the manga. It's much better.
I actually have been keeping up with the Manga, and I have to admit I enjoy it much better even though I still despise the whole "Beerus, Whis, & Super Saiyan God" thing. That's gotta count for something, right?

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Re: Do we have too high expectations for Super?

Post by Doctor. » Mon Aug 24, 2015 7:39 pm

VintageSaiyan wrote: IMO the "rose tinted glasses" are being worn by those that defend this steaming pile of turd, it has nothing to do with nostalgia and everything to do with standards.
I have plenty of standards for the anime I watch, in fact I'd say I'm a harsh critic, especially towards this series in particular. And I have literally no nostalgia towards the series. I still think Super has had a better start than the original Dragon Ball. No, I won't say Z, because Z's start was fantastic, I don't know if anyone can deny that, but nevertheless that's not really the point. Is Super going to be as good as Dragon Ball's best? No, most likely not. But it's at least more entertaining and better written than the worst arcs of the series, like the 22nd Budokai for instance, so far.
The animation/art design is terrible. It's bottom tier especially when you look at other productions. Z wasn't always consistent, but I can still watch it and be entertained. You know why? Because the fight choreography was interesting, the characters had motives, and there were consequences. Z's average day is better than Super's best so far. Super's fights consist of badly animated punches being thrown for a few minutes - it's terrible. (I would take almost any episode from the Paikuhan filler over Super.) And when Z's animation was on, it was fucking on.
That's not really fair. First of all, Dragon Ball has always had animation compared to other productions, period. It doesn't matter if it's Super or Z, GT or Dragon Ball, compare it to any other random series out there, and our franchise will most likely come up short. Secondly, you're not really being all that fair on Super. Not only is digital animation usually inferior, but there's also only 7 episodes so far (with some pretty good animation in certain scenes). Z did have a fantastic fight scene against Raditz, animated by Studio Cockpit, but Dragon Ball's animation was just as bad, so was GT's, as Super's.

All of the fights in the series consist mostly of badly animated punches being thrown for a few minutes with sometimes some good fighting choreography being thrown in the middle for a few seconds. Dragon Ball Z fights are lame, they always have been, this is why I personally stick to the manga, because that indeed does have great fighting choreography, the anime hardly ever did.
VintageSaiyan wrote:-Characters are wild caricatures of themselves, relying on using the same basic tropes we've been used to except wildly exaggerated.
"Oh look, Buu is being a fat dick again! Haha :D"
"Oh, there goes Vegeta again. He's so angry and prideful :lol: "
"
I see this complaint being thrown around often, but aside from Videl being terribly out of character (or developing too fast, either or), I don't see how these characters are acting any different than they have been before. You can say that the gags they're being put in are being terribly executed, but that's another issue entirely.
VintageSaiyan wrote:-There is no story. Some angry cat god is destroying planets for who the fuck cares. There is no sense of danger, of consequences, etc. He just exists and all a sudden there's a Captain Planet ritual to summon a palette swap of Goku.
Oh c'mon now. Who the hell comes to Dragon Ball for a story? Is this any different than the monkey man who came from space and pulled from his ass that Goku was his brother? How about the tailless monkey man who could turn blonde for a couple of seconds and humiliated the best villain in the entire series? Or how about Mega God coming from the solar system's twin cousin to be useless for 50 episodes while some pink manchild bubblegum thing terrorizes Earth? How is this any different? If anything, Beerus' story is better written, because even though his existence is an asspull, they're at least TRYING to make him fit in with the story, unlike Boo for instance.
There were plotholes, but it was never so incredibly bad where it was distracting. It's almost as if the previous sagas didn't exist. Either Toriyama isn't as involved as we're led to believe or he simply doesn't give a shit anymore.
And what plot holes does Super have?

You're gonna have to be careful about this. The definition of a "plot hole" is not concrete.
And if you ask any community outside of use crazy Dragonball fans, Super is practically unwatchable
No, if you ask stubborn elitists who think all Shounen are bad, then they think Super is unwatchable because "lol it's Dragon Ball". If you ask Shounen fans and they say it's unwatchable, it's mostly because of "animation". And if you ask other Dragon Ball fans and they say it's unwatchable, it's usually because "they're retelling the movies".

I have yet to find legitimate criticism about this series that doesn't apply to all of the others. You can it's worse in Super, sure, but at least acknowledge the other series had the same flaws.

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