What is the General Consensus for Super?

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: What is the General Consensus for Super?

Post by KameRule » Wed Aug 26, 2015 11:44 am

I'm really enjoying it personally, but while I don't think that there's a real specific consensus for the show, it seems that pretty much everyone agrees that it's not as good as Dragon Ball(Z).
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Re: What is the General Consensus for Super?

Post by LuckyCat » Wed Aug 26, 2015 12:13 pm

KameRule wrote:it seems that pretty much everyone agrees that it's not as good as Dragon Ball(Z).
Everyone? Personally I like Beerus as an antagonist more than Freeza. I have no idea how Super will turn out, but if we get more Beerus Time, I think I'll enjoy it more than DBZ.
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Re: What is the General Consensus for Super?

Post by Hero » Wed Aug 26, 2015 12:17 pm

I'm actually disappointed in the show, and this is coming from someone who loved BoG and F.

My main issues with it are:

- The obvious complaint that retelling the movies is pointless.
- The animation that is so bad at certain points that it actually takes me out of the show. DBZ never did this to me, and it had some pretty bad animation.
- The action so far has not been good at all. (SSJ3 vs. Beerus and the Z fighters vs. Beerus was much more intense and cool in BoG)
- Beerus's charming and funny personality has been replaced with generic villain #34. I miss the unexpected originality of BoG Beerus

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Re: What is the General Consensus for Super?

Post by Doctor. » Wed Aug 26, 2015 12:21 pm

Retelling the movies is not a pointless decision. It produces a much more cohesive narrative, since it allows to flesh out characters and plot points much better, it allows foreshadowing now that the Toei writers know exactly where they're gonna take the story and, if done correctly, could improve the films a lot, and F needs improvement. It also helps that, like this, it means new fans who never watched the films or got into the series after the films aired can just go straight from Z/Kai to Super, instead of watching two completely random movies out of the 15 and then Super. The canon is a lot less confusing this way and series with a confusing canon, like Star Wars for instance, drive away a lot of people, like me for example.

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Re: What is the General Consensus for Super?

Post by DBZAOTA482 » Wed Aug 26, 2015 1:43 pm

Doctor. wrote:Retelling the movies is not a pointless decision. It produces a much more cohesive narrative, since it allows to flesh out characters and plot points much better, it allows foreshadowing now that the Toei writers know exactly where they're gonna take the story and, if done correctly, could improve the films a lot, and F needs improvement. It also helps that, like this, it means new fans who never watched the films or got into the series after the films aired can just go straight from Z/Kai to Super, instead of watching two completely random movies out of the 15 and then Super. The canon is a lot less confusing this way and series with a confusing canon, like Star Wars for instance, drive away a lot of people, like me for example.
Too bad Super does almost none of that.
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Re: What is the General Consensus for Super?

Post by funrush » Wed Aug 26, 2015 7:33 pm

Not enough different to make me really want to watch it even though I have been. It just feels like an inferior version of BoG so far. I think really highly of BoG (At least the theatrical cut), so maybe I've got a bias but what they're doing with it here just feels kinda unnecessary. Hasn't everyone who's gotten the chance to see the movies seen them, what's the point in adapting it this way?

Not that retelling movies in TV show format is bad, it allows for lots of interesting things you can do which can totally benefit the story. But Super at the moment is pretty much BoG but with worse animation, slower, and on a boat. Probably so there's just enough different to keep people who saw the movies already from straight out turning it off. I still hold out hopes for the RoF arc, since there's a lot more they can do to pad that than say BoG which is more plot based than fight based.

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Re: What is the General Consensus for Super?

Post by Ginkasa » Wed Aug 26, 2015 11:30 pm

So far I think its okay. I enjoyed BoG well enough, but not so well as to want it again in a longer format and animated less well. There have been some small changes I've enjoyed, but I probably would have preferred to have something brand new. Ultimately, though, I'm just enjoying it as it goes. At this point, I'm not really trying to compare it to DB or DBZ. It seems a little unfair to compare a series that is only 7 episodes in to hundreds of episodes in the earlier series.

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Re: What is the General Consensus for Super?

Post by Doctor. » Wed Aug 26, 2015 11:32 pm

Ginkasa wrote:So far I think its okay. I enjoyed BoG well enough, but not so well as to want it again in a longer format and animated less well. There have been some small changes I've enjoyed, but I probably would have preferred to have something brand new. Ultimately, though, I'm just enjoying it as it goes. At this point, I'm not really trying to compare it to DB or DBZ. It seems a little unfair to compare a series that is only 7 episodes in to hundreds of episodes in the earlier series.
You can always compare it to each arc, or at least to the first 7 episodes of each arc.

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Re: What is the General Consensus for Super?

Post by Presto88 » Thu Aug 27, 2015 6:03 am

I'm a Dragonball fan for the past 15 years, at this point I feel thats the only reason I'm still watching. If this was 10 year old me, I'm not sure I've seen anything that really drew me in the first few episodes of Z to keep me viewing. I really don't understand the jumping down of anybodies throats who aren't happy with the current product, 7 episodes in, this is not the Dragon Ball many came to know and love and if you say well thats how it started, fine, but the majority of viewers in the west didn't start watching Dragonball, they started with Z which is effectively the tone held from the King Piccolo Saga all the way through to the end of the Manga, in other words the majority of the story. Irrespective of how it began, the tone and quality of Z is what gave the property its mass appeal, so don't get upset if people aren't happy with the notably different approach the new series seems to be taking.

The characterisation is terrible, the tone far too light, actually light isn't the right word, silly would be more apt, the fight choreography woeful in comparison to the fights of the later half of Dragon ball and Z, I mean do you guys remember Radditz vs Piccolo/Goku, thats effectively what sold me on the series, and we haven't seen anything close to that, let alone the fights in the later parts of the series and movie specials. It's not like they haven't had the opportunity, Goku vs Beerus, pathetic animation aside, was laughable and I really am not expecting anything from the upcoming battle with Vegeta either. Tone wise, sure Dragonball has always had its comedic moments, fine, keep them, not at the expense of previously established characterisations, let Roshi, Krillin, Oolong etc drive the comedy, not fucking Vegeta or Piccolo. Even Beerus and Whis, so much potential, but I mean this whole obsession with food just doesn't work for me, the way they executed a similar principle with Buu was so much more effective, with these two it's just weird, but thats more personal preference they are new characters, they just don't serve as convincing antagonists, certainly not ones worth mentioning in the same breath as, Piccolo, the Saiyans, Freeza, the Androids, Cell and even Buu.

In saying all that, I do understand, and am cautiously optimistic because of it, that this series is retelling 2 stories that have already been told, and I have to say the prospect of the inter-dimensional third act, sounds absolutely fantastic and if executed properly could be one of the best Dragon Ball arcs yet. To get there though, the supporting cast needs to be shown some more respect (Gohan & Piccolo in particular), the characterisation has to get back on track (Vegeta), the fights need to be much better (this is what the series was built on, there is a reason Toonami was selling this as the greatest action cartoon of all time, because it was) and while I am not anticipating the the greatness that was Kikuchi, I feel that music has always been an important part of the series, even successors such as Yamamoto and Falconer recognised this and composed accordingly, giving the series a quality and distinctive feeling, the generic music of the films and later episodes of Kai have just been meh.

I believe in Super I'm just holding out for it to reach its potential, and like GT I will watch every episode, I just expect better from any product associated with the Dragonball name.

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Re: What is the General Consensus for Super?

Post by theoriginalbilis » Thu Aug 27, 2015 9:37 am

I will agree with you that a lot of us first got into DBZ because of the action, which was pretty a feature from the very beginning. Even episode one of Z had a short Piccolo vs. Raditz confrontation.

That said, the more comedic tone doesn't bother me, but the lack of decent fight choreography certainly is. And it's been proven in the past that a series can be comedic and light-hearted, but still have good fights. Look at JoJo's Bizarre Adventure, One Piece, or Hajime no Ippo.
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Re: What is the General Consensus for Super?

Post by Bardo117 » Thu Aug 27, 2015 1:30 pm

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Re: What is the General Consensus for Super?

Post by Hellspawn28 » Thu Aug 27, 2015 2:26 pm

I think Super feels very light and campy because it's based on BOG which was a very light hearted from the start. When ROF happens in Super, the show will start to take a more serious tone to the story. ROF did felt more darker and serious compare to BOG did.
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Re: What is the General Consensus for Super?

Post by Quebaz » Thu Aug 27, 2015 6:43 pm

I'm loving the majority of it. I first watched the entire series 10 years ago, being able to hop in, watch an episode week-by-week and discussing it with other people is super joyful. I don't really mind they're retelling the movies since I haven't watched BoG since its release year and while I would be fine without some of the changes and adaptations, I'm totally okay with it, everyone knows the Meat of the series will start once the U6 arcs starts anyway.
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Re: What is the General Consensus for Super?

Post by Ginkasa » Thu Aug 27, 2015 6:53 pm

Doctor. wrote:
Ginkasa wrote:So far I think its okay. I enjoyed BoG well enough, but not so well as to want it again in a longer format and animated less well. There have been some small changes I've enjoyed, but I probably would have preferred to have something brand new. Ultimately, though, I'm just enjoying it as it goes. At this point, I'm not really trying to compare it to DB or DBZ. It seems a little unfair to compare a series that is only 7 episodes in to hundreds of episodes in the earlier series.
You can always compare it to each arc, or at least to the first 7 episodes of each arc.
I still don't think it would really work as an equivalent comparison. Each arc in each series starts pretty differently, especially depending on how you define the "arcs." I just don't think it necessarily reflects anything in particular in regards to DB/Z or DBS. I think it just makes more sense to watch the show and judge it on its own merits, positive or negative, than to try to compare it to what's come before. Once we have a sizable chunk of episodes released and have moved past the movie retellings we can probably start looking at how well Super is at doings it things compared to DB/Z doing their thing.

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Re: What is the General Consensus for Super?

Post by miguelnuva1 » Thu Aug 27, 2015 7:34 pm

Doctor. wrote:Retelling the movies is not a pointless decision. It produces a much more cohesive narrative, since it allows to flesh out characters and plot points much better, it allows foreshadowing now that the Toei writers know exactly where they're gonna take the story and, if done correctly, could improve the films a lot, and F needs improvement. It also helps that, like this, it means new fans who never watched the films or got into the series after the films aired can just go straight from Z/Kai to Super, instead of watching two completely random movies out of the 15 and then Super. The canon is a lot less confusing this way and series with a confusing canon, like Star Wars for instance, drive away a lot of people, like me for example.
The Star Wars canon is tens times less confusing than the Dragonball canon.

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Re: What is the General Consensus for Super?

Post by irreality » Thu Aug 27, 2015 7:41 pm

miguelnuva1 wrote: The Star Wars canon is tens times less confusing than the Dragonball canon.
The Dragon Ball canon is not particularly confusing. Speaking to Star Wars fans, their general consensus is that there are many different levels of canon, and it can get quite confusing.

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Re: What is the General Consensus for Super?

Post by Ginkasa » Fri Aug 28, 2015 12:57 am

irreality wrote:
miguelnuva1 wrote: The Star Wars canon is tens times less confusing than the Dragonball canon.
The Dragon Ball canon is not particularly confusing. Speaking to Star Wars fans, their general consensus is that there are many different levels of canon, and it can get quite confusing.

It all depends. Star Wars is generally appreciated by the vast majority of its audience as a film franchise. The movies are easy to get into and understand. There is zero confusion in regards to the main Star Wars movies. I - VI (soon VII). Everything else is ancillary media that is non-essential to understanding the movies and generally ignored by the majority of people who watch the movies.

Dragon Ball is much more complicated. It originated as a manga, but its more popular (it seems to me, though I honestly have no numbers to substantiate) as an anime series. Even then, the most popular anime is DBZ which is a sequel series to DB. This is not necessarily clear to someone who has just heard of DBZ and wants to jump in. There is GT which is a sequel series to a sequel series, but isn't a manga adaptation at all. The relationship between these three series is not obvious to a new comer. Then there is DB Kai which is a retelling of DBZ. So which should be watched? And now there is DBS which is another sequel series to DBZ, but it doesn't take place "after" DBZ, but during DBZ in the years prior to the epilogue of DBZ. And it doesn't mesh with DBGT at all, it seems. Also, DBS is an adaptation, not of a manga, but of two pieces of ancillary media that carry the name "Dragon Ball Z" and not "Dragon Ball Super."

Those are just the main properties. If you want to jump in to ancillary media (everything but the movies for Star Wars and everything but the anime (and manga?) of DB) DB gets even more confusing.

The main confusing bit with Star Wars right now is the reboot. All of the EU (books, comics, games, etc.) released prior to 2014 is now labelled "Legends" and is not canon. Everything 2014 and later is now just as canon as the movies and The Clone Wars TV show. Once you get past this single distinction: easy.

Dragon Ball? DB has movies that were weird retellings of the anime/manga. Is this canon? How does it relate to the other stuff? DBZ has a bunch of movies that seemingly take place at times they physically couldn't take place. It might be easy to consider them "not canon," but then certain elements and characters sneak their way in to the show with no explanation. Are BoG and RoF canon to DBZ? But now they're being retold, so... Is the 10th anniversary DB special the canon version of DB now? Or just another re-telling the other movies? The manga adaption of DBS (an anime that is a sequel to an anime that was itself an adaptation of a manga) canon to the DB manga or is it canon to nothing? What about Dragon Ball Heroes? Is Xenoverse somehow canon? Dokkan Battle? Did this happen? What's up with this Jaco thing?

Even to a seasoned fan, I think it isn't necessarily clear what is and is not "canon." It largely seems that "canon" really isn't much of a concern in regards to DB. This is fine, but it is pretty confusing if that's what you're focused on.

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Re: What is the General Consensus for Super?

Post by DBZMerciter2005 » Fri Aug 28, 2015 1:33 pm

irreality wrote:
miguelnuva1 wrote: The Star Wars canon is tens times less confusing than the Dragonball canon.
The Dragon Ball canon is not particularly confusing. Speaking to Star Wars fans, their general consensus is that there are many different levels of canon, and it can get quite confusing.
As both as DB fan and Star Wars fan I believe that Star Wars is far simpler for one reason: Disney clarified canonicity in the series. All that is canon are the first six movies, Star Wars: Clone Wars, and anything made after April 25th 2014. As Ginkasa said anything else is part of the extended universe (EU), or Legends series, which is basically licensed fan fiction. If something new is made and it's labeled "Legends" it's not formal canon. If the label is not there it is canon. Many Star Wars fans think of the EU as "unestablished canon" which means that the EU is true until proven false. Others think of EU as alternate universes. Some fall into both camps. No matter the point of view canon in Star Wars is relatively easy to figure out.

DB is not simple in any way because there is no established canon. We all know the talking points so I won't delve into it too much. The point is DB is so full of plot holes, inconsistencies, and even source material retconning itself that an actual canon is difficult to parse out and it always will be until Toriyama or Toei pulls a Disney and specifies what really is canon.
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Re: What is the General Consensus for Super?

Post by irreality » Fri Aug 28, 2015 1:52 pm

I don't think anyone really needs to "specify" the canon -- that is why I am saying it is easier than SW. Each piece of DB media is perfectly understandable and enjoyable on its own. People make it more confusing than it needs to be in their heads, I think.

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Re: What is the General Consensus for Super?

Post by Doctor. » Fri Aug 28, 2015 2:28 pm

miguelnuva1 wrote:
Doctor. wrote:Retelling the movies is not a pointless decision. It produces a much more cohesive narrative, since it allows to flesh out characters and plot points much better, it allows foreshadowing now that the Toei writers know exactly where they're gonna take the story and, if done correctly, could improve the films a lot, and F needs improvement. It also helps that, like this, it means new fans who never watched the films or got into the series after the films aired can just go straight from Z/Kai to Super, instead of watching two completely random movies out of the 15 and then Super. The canon is a lot less confusing this way and series with a confusing canon, like Star Wars for instance, drive away a lot of people, like me for example.
The Star Wars canon is tens times less confusing than the Dragonball canon.
The Dragon Ball canon only got confusing recently. When someone is already a part of the fanbase, of course the canon won't seem confusing to them. As an outsider, I cannot comprehend how I should go about starting Star Wars. Apparently there's different versions of each films and whatnot and that's not counting all of the stuff that isn't in film format.

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