You are missing the point of what I was saying entirely. This isn't about hurt feelings or whether Super is good or bad, but about the quality and intent of these discussions. Are you trying to bring fans that enjoy something you don't enjoy down? Or are you trying to make sense of your own frustrations with other fans? If it is the latter, there are better ways of doing that without doing the former. If you truly deem none of it salvageable, do yourself a favor and stop watching. Life is too short to watch stuff we don't like.VintageSaiyan wrote:
While we're at it, how about every other thread that doesn't like Super. What about if we think that the current version of Super airing right now is a mockery? That's my opinion and I'm expressing it in this thread. What you, irrealty, deem salvageable is not the same opinion I hold. I deem absolutely none of it to be salvageable so far and I'm not going to water down my opinion because people like you take it to heart for some reason. There's a reasonable amount of frustration with Super all around the Dragonball fanverse and whether it's the minority (it isn't) or the majority, these threads are going to pop up.
I never watched all of GT for this reason: I just skipped to the episodes that had some stuff I enjoyed and was the happier for it. I don't go around starting threads about it being terrible because I know some people enjoy them (and am not a fan of those threads, either). I didn't do it when GT first aired in my home country, either, even after riding the hype of just having finished DBZ and having incredible expectations, and being a silly teenager at the time. I have read nuanced discussions on GT since that were critical, and have found those helpful for sorting my thoughts about it. And of late, I have seen people chiming in that like GT, and have greatly appreciated their comments. Cetra, for example, likes GT and listening to them talk about what they like has helped me appreciate some of the things about GT I glossed over before.
You are right: there is no need to beat a dead horse. Are you saying you have nothing else to say? Even I can think of new things to be critical and have an interesting discussion about about and I *like* it.VintageSaiyan wrote: He doesn't need to explain why because those of us who understand don't need the dead horse summary of terrible art, animation, lack of characterization, plot, continuity issues, pacing, concepts, etc. If you smell garbage you don't necessarily need to explain to your friends why you hate the smell each time, especially if they recognize it as well. You are sure welcome to ask, but I think you guys are taking it a bit too personally and using that as an excuse to come here and pick fights.
This thread could have easily been: "For those who don't enjoy Super, what are ways to transform it?" , with the first post being: "I'm looking forward to seomthing like TeamFourStar's dub of the series. The jokes they can make with this material might make some of Super salvageable to me. What about you guys?" Some people might chime in with saying "I hope the DVDs or international release will have better animation, that is all I need to enjoy it", others might be "I would like a fan cut with less filler -- for those bothered by Vegeta's rageboost, it could be cut and have Goku just show up in the end of the previous episode". Or "I want to read someone's elaborate headcanon explaining a certain plot hole -- that would give me some piece of mind". This is what I mean about the quality of discussion.
Again, an example from my life: Same with the first 13 dragon ball Z movies. I may have watched 3? 4? of them that had some plot and visual elements I liked. The others, despite having some good animation, were plots I didn't like or characterizations I didn't like. TeamFourStar's parody of them did make them more fun and watchable for me because they weaved in elements of the larger story and brought in more compelling characterizations, as well as making it amusing. As have some fan reviews of them. Transformative art is great for that -- there is a lot of media I enjoy because the body of fan work makes it enjoyable. That doesn't mean I would want to deprive any of the thousands of movie fans their movies being released with good quality dubs or animation.
If it were just the title, or just this thread, I think people wouldn't be speaking up. People are venting in other threads and I try not to engage those comments because people need to be able to express frustration. (I'm not sure there are that many "pro-Super" threads, most threads are general information and discussion threads which go either way). But it quickly seems to devolve (or it never evolves beyond that), in thread after thread. You don't need to lie, and say you like things that you don't -- that is not what "critical discussion" means. It means stating something more than "everything is bad". Nobody has been "crying about their feelings" or "raising pitchforks" against you.VintageSaiyan wrote: If we said there are major positives about Super that we enjoy we'd be lying. You don't want us venting in your pro-Super threads so we don't. (I've been guilty of this and have backed off) This was a thread with a clever title which really was inoffensive, and for some reason people are raising their pitchforks and crying about their feelings, attacking any dissenting view and looking for any technicality.
That is the problem: that if someone has nothing more constructive to say it is not legitimate to resort to crass imagery as an argument -- those aren't the only options. I'm not asking people to leave or stop expressing their opinion or lie. Nor do they need to delete this thread. I like discussing work I like and don't like critically. But, if everything constructively critical to be said has been said, maybe that is all there is to say on the matter.VintageSaiyan wrote:Neoking was obviously voicing his frustration and instead of saying "wow this thing is a steaming pile of ball gargling shit" he made a light joke about it.