Episode 11 changes it ALL (at least to me)

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Unkikonki
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Episode 11 changes it ALL (at least to me)

Post by Unkikonki » Wed Sep 23, 2015 11:28 pm

Why had DB Super been so badly disappointing so far? In order to answer to this, I think we should focus on the following points: plot (BoG's events were being repeated with no apparent interesting underlying reason), animations and designs (these fail a lot of times, specially on the infamous chapter 5, probably the worst DB episode ever animated), the quantity of characters involved on scene (although it's true that most of their appearances have been quite pointless, we have to understand that despite their order of importance there are too many characters involved in the story: Gohan, Piccolo, Ten Shin Han, Krilin, Yamcha, Muten Roshi, A-18, Chi-Chi, Bulma, Trunks, Goten, Mr. Satan, Mr. Boo, Dende, Dr. Brief, etc...) and this last point is directly linked to something that had been hard to understand until now: the main character of the series so far is not either Goku or Vegeta, but Beerus himself, whose machiavellian personality has been much more developed in Super than in BoG and FnF.

There were the pieces, but the element that gives them unity was missing. This could be first seen on episode 11 and its impact is so big that I think it completely changes the way of seeing all other previous episodes.

On this last episode 11 we could feel for the first time that the characters were actually alive, both by displaying a defined personality and clearly expressing their feelings. I find this to be one of the key points in order to create a good DB story. It's not much about "what you are telling" but "how you are telling it". The story had been failing in both aspects so far, but once the "how" is adjusted the plot turns to be much more enjoyable. A purple sphinx cat can be pretty intimidating if you make it behave in the proper way.

However, this has been achieved mainly with Beerus and, to a lesser extent, with Goku, so it is remain to be seen how does it work with the other characters, specially with a held back Vegetta.
Last edited by Unkikonki on Thu Sep 24, 2015 6:23 am, edited 1 time in total.

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garfield15
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Re: Chapter 11 changes it ALL (at least to me)

Post by garfield15 » Thu Sep 24, 2015 5:22 am

I dunno. I thought it had been sort of just alright so far.

Episodes 10 and 11 were indeed improvements with 11 being the best so far in my opinion

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Re: Chapter 11 changes it ALL (at least to me)

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Thu Sep 24, 2015 6:01 am

Don't you mean 'episode' rather than 'chapter'?
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Re: Chapter 11 changes it ALL (at least to me)

Post by Unkikonki » Thu Sep 24, 2015 6:10 am

garfield15 wrote:I dunno. I thought it had been sort of just alright so far.

Episodes 10 and 11 were indeed improvements with 11 being the best so far in my opinion
That's my point. It looks like everybody is sceptic about we've seen in chapter 11. It's not only the best DB Super episode so far, but it's the kind of signal we've been waiting for! Tori proved that he can still bring up that old fashioned DB battle dramatic feeling. This was possible because they mostly focused on Goku and Beerus. They gave enough time to the battle to develop in a way that it could transmit the tension and drama of the scene. The pace was brilliant. It's funny, because this is the kind of things that lot of people would complain about DB, despite of actually being one of the best things it has.

This is totally opposite to the previous DB Super episodes, where scenes happened abruptly and without harmony. But, it was also about the designs. Even in this chapter they failed a few times, but overall it was quite good. However, they were so poor before this that most of the time it wouldn't let you to focus on the story. You would most likely just judge on how bad the designs were and nothing more than that. As I said before, this is part of the "how" you tell a story. If designs are disappointing, then you can hardly focus on that story.

I'm going to put this straight: at first, according to what BoG and FnF showed us, I didn't expect much from DB Super. After the first 5 episodes, I was disappointed as fuck, having my expectations gotten even below, but now I have completely changed my mind because it became obvious what they can achieve when they set their mind to.

This episode was way better than any DBGT one. This might not mean much for many, but I guess it gives us the idea that this series can't really turn into the disaster we thought after watching episode 5. Standards have been set quite higher now.

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Re: Chapter 11 changes it ALL (at least to me)

Post by Unkikonki » Thu Sep 24, 2015 6:11 am

Polyphase Avatron wrote:Don't you mean 'episode' rather than 'chapter'?
I'm not an English native speaker. I would really appreciate if you could explain me what difference that it makes! Really!

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Re: Chapter 11 changes it ALL (at least to me)

Post by Zephyr » Thu Sep 24, 2015 6:37 am

Unkikonki wrote:
Polyphase Avatron wrote:Don't you mean 'episode' rather than 'chapter'?
I'm not an English native speaker. I would really appreciate if you could explain me what difference that it makes! Really!
Episodes generally are the segments of the anime, while chapters are generally the segments of the manga. Not in every single instance, but that's what most people will call to mind when "episode" and "chapter" are mentioned.

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Re: Chapter 11 changes it ALL (at least to me)

Post by Unkikonki » Thu Sep 24, 2015 6:40 am

Zephyr wrote:
Unkikonki wrote:
Polyphase Avatron wrote:Don't you mean 'episode' rather than 'chapter'?
I'm not an English native speaker. I would really appreciate if you could explain me what difference that it makes! Really!
Episodes generally are the segments of the anime, while chapters are generally the segments of the manga. Not in every single instance, but that's what most people will call to mind when "episode" and "chapter" are mentioned.
Ok thanks for that. I've already changed the title. In fact, I think this was the only segment where the anime was above the manga so far.

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Re: Episode 11 changes it ALL (at least to me)

Post by sangofe » Thu Sep 24, 2015 9:55 am

This should also go in the Dragon Ball Super sub forum...

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Re: Episode 11 changes it ALL (at least to me)

Post by TheDevilsCorpse » Thu Sep 24, 2015 11:28 am

sangofe wrote:This should also go in the Dragon Ball Super sub forum...
There's zero reason to point that out; only staff members can create topics in that section for the time being.

As for the topic, I'm not overly invested in Super right now to begin with because the content is the retelling of the recent films. I'm generally enjoying myself while watching the episodes (though there are elements I'm not liking), but their quality isn't that important to me. Having the series be amazing from start to finish would be nice of course, but if the Beerus Arc as a whole ends up mediocre, that's okay to me because I still have Battle of Gods, which does pretty much everything better IMO. Same with the Golden Freeza Arc/Resurrection "F", unless they can somehow make things better.

Universe 6 is where things will really start to matter.
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Re: Episode 11 changes it ALL (at least to me)

Post by sangofe » Thu Sep 24, 2015 12:37 pm

TheDevilsCorpse wrote:
sangofe wrote:This should also go in the Dragon Ball Super sub forum...
There's zero reason to point that out; only staff members can create topics in that section for the time being.
Oh...! Okay... Didn't know about that (but why is ScholarGohan's topic there? Did it get moved there?)

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Re: Episode 11 changes it ALL (at least to me)

Post by TheDevilsCorpse » Thu Sep 24, 2015 12:58 pm

All topics related to Super, other than those actually created by staff, usually end up being posted in some other section of the forums and are later moved there once a member of the staff/moderation team notice them.

EDIT: Speak of the devil...
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Re: Episode 11 changes it ALL (at least to me)

Post by TRL » Thu Sep 24, 2015 3:41 pm

I agree episode 11 is a very good one, but I don't think one good episodes somehow suddenly makes up for all the previous bad ones. We should be expecting and getting this quality every episode!

You make a good point about the amount of characters, thought I don't really think that's the reason for the bad animation. They could've saved themselves some trouble though by changing it up in this retelling. For the BOG I could understand some kind of party was necessary to get the crew together. For Super no such party is necessary anymore to get everyone due screen time. For instance Beerus could've just sought all the strong saiyans one by one. I wonder if he would've bothered visiting Majin Buu then though. I still wish they had expanded even more on that fight. Am I the only one who really wants to see Majin Buu in a big important fight?

I'm also in the camp that has no problem with Beerus more "evil" portrayal. They just added some extra glacing to the cake. It's not because it's one way in Super that it negates the depiction in BOG. I actually love that we have 3 versions of the same Goku vs. Beerus fight now. That's unprecidented in Dragonball! :) And the way I see it. Each version has it's value or "canon". They're all the same story, you just have to view it as 3 different people telling it. And not view one or the other as an accurate recording of events that happened. Stories get spruced up and focus on different accents all the time.

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Re: Episode 11 changes it ALL (at least to me)

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Thu Sep 24, 2015 5:38 pm

Episode is typically used to refer to an individual installment of a TV show, while chapter is used to mean a section of a book or other written work.
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Re: Episode 11 changes it ALL (at least to me)

Post by Unkikonki » Fri Sep 25, 2015 1:08 am

TRL wrote:I agree episode 11 is a very good one, but I don't think one good episodes somehow suddenly makes up for all the previous bad ones. We should be expecting and getting this quality every episode!

You make a good point about the amount of characters, thought I don't really think that's the reason for the bad animation. They could've saved themselves some trouble though by changing it up in this retelling. For the BOG I could understand some kind of party was necessary to get the crew together. For Super no such party is necessary anymore to get everyone due screen time. For instance Beerus could've just sought all the strong saiyans one by one. I wonder if he would've bothered visiting Majin Buu then though. I still wish they had expanded even more on that fight. Am I the only one who really wants to see Majin Buu in a big important fight?

I'm also in the camp that has no problem with Beerus more "evil" portrayal. They just added some extra glacing to the cake. It's not because it's one way in Super that it negates the depiction in BOG. I actually love that we have 3 versions of the same Goku vs. Beerus fight now. That's unprecidented in Dragonball! :) And the way I see it. Each version has it's value or "canon". They're all the same story, you just have to view it as 3 different people telling it. And not view one or the other as an accurate recording of events that happened. Stories get spruced up and focus on different accents all the time.
I'm not saying it makes up, but we can be more optimistic about what's coming because they have at least shown they can deliver a good episode.

Yeah, maybe the crew has been quite meaningless so far, but if they all appear from the beginning (even in FnF) maybe it is because they are being expected to have some play during the upcoming events. They have failed on this so far because nothing besides what happens with Beerus is important, at least for now.

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Re: Episode 11 changes it ALL (at least to me)

Post by Unkikonki » Fri Sep 25, 2015 1:10 am

TheDevilsCorpse wrote:
sangofe wrote:This should also go in the Dragon Ball Super sub forum...
There's zero reason to point that out; only staff members can create topics in that section for the time being.

As for the topic, I'm not overly invested in Super right now to begin with because the content is the retelling of the recent films. I'm generally enjoying myself while watching the episodes (though there are elements I'm not liking), but their quality isn't that important to me. Having the series be amazing from start to finish would be nice of course, but if the Beerus Arc as a whole ends up mediocre, that's okay to me because I still have Battle of Gods, which does pretty much everything better IMO. Same with the Golden Freeza Arc/Resurrection "F", unless they can somehow make things better.

Universe 6 is where things will really start to matter.
Well, actually I think that episode 11 fight was much better than BoG and totally justifies the remaking.
Quality is important, even at this stage. You now that if you make a good DB series success is guaranteed.

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