My problem with Super's depiction of Beerus

[Blackstripe]

As I mentioned in the "Dragon Ball Super BOG Arc - Your thoughts" thoughts thread, my impression of the arc overall was that it was...a decent enough, if bloated, adaption.

But one thing I really disliked about it were the changes to Beerus' personality. I feel like they made him this ridiculous mustache twirling villain with few redeeming traits...you know, like the standard Z villain, which he wasn't. Part of what made BoG so unique and different from most Dragon Ball stories was that Beerus wasn't like most enemies they faced (and the fact that Gokuu actually loses).

And ultimately? I feel like that diminished the impression of Godliness one receives from him.

In Battle of Gods, while he could most certainly be quite petty and had an epic hair-trigger temper, there was much more to him than that. He was friendly, jovial and fun-loving at the party, didn't torment Vegeta pointlessly for no good reason, and when he was fighting with Godkuu came across as genuinely wise at several points.

And that was what made his character interesting! When he wasn't being a petty child, he was a chill guy that actually had the air of an ancient deity about him. Remember when Mai held Trunks at gunpoint? His response was to nearly stand up and "discipline them all" because he felt like they were being amoral assholes for laughing at children threatening each other with weapons.

He also earlier implies that the reason he wanted the Saiyan's wiped out was because they were bad guys that would never shape up. This is a character with some sense of morality, and scenes like those added nuance to his personality.

While he was fighting with Godkuu, also, he basically started mentoring him by pointing out the flaws in his personality. He called him out on his "foolish, useless pride" and noted that he should appreciate the friends who were willing to help him achieve that power. That was awesome, and it's removal from Super really pissed me off. It showed that Beerus wasn't just this petulant child, and ultimately did have the wisdom of a God.

Furthermore, after Godkuu falters and passes out at the end, Beerus gently catches him and carries him down to Earth. He then apologizes for his rude behavior, and for hitting Bulma. That's unprecedented for any Dragon Ball villain, who have all been irredeemable stone-cold killers up till that point! They would have ripped Gokuu's head off, showed it to his friends while laughing, and then brutally slaughtered them.

Now, Beerus in Super did at least have enough decency not to do that...but he didn't apologize, and he pretended to fall asleep so he wouldn't have to own up to him sparing Gokuu and the Earth. Beerus in BoG was able to bury his pride and do so, which harkened back to him calling Gokuu out on his pride earlier. He could admit when he was wrong and apologize.

It's important to note that he was quite matter-of-fact about his job as a Hakaishin throughout the movie, rather than taking sadistic glee in obliterating worlds.

Now, I'm not trying to claim that BoG!Beerus is a GOOD aligned character, but I think he can be fairly called neutral. Destruction is his job and he does have a code of morals that seem to guide him when he's in a stable state of mind. Super's just seems completely random and axe-crazy.

What do the rest of you think?

[Neo-Makaiōshin]

In my eyes he´s still the same character that he was in BoG (albeit a bit tone down version of it but still the same nonetheless) so i don´t have much problems with it. Maybe what you see missing from him in Super right now may show up in upcoming arcs.

[Doctor.]

Dragon Ball Super decides to take Battle of Gods and flesh it out in a way the movie never had the sufficient run time to do so. It builds up Beerus as a credible threat and villain (something the movie only had time to SAY instead of showing), by showing us his more sadistic, evil and destroyer side while also not omitting the playful side we've come to know and love in BoG.

Beerus is not a shallow, cookie-cutter villain like some that have came before him. His character is developed through his battle with Goku (which is more than someone can say for BoG): he is someone whose humongous power always prompts him to go to sleep in hope of someone strong sometime showing up. One can even characterize Beerus' sleeping habits as a method he uses to outright avoid insanity due to sheer boredom. The show makes an effort to humanize the character through his battle with the Super Saiyan God, mainly with his "I'm sleepy" rant, by showing us his disappointment and desperation.

This, unfortunately, comes at a price of Goku's fantastic character development present in Battle of Gods, but it gives a lot more insight into Beerus than the movie bothered to give. Throwaway lines in the movie like Piccolo's "It looks like Goku is being trained", now make sense as Beerus teaches/helps Goku to train his Super Saiyan God power in Super, while in Battle of Gods he was already able to use 100% of the power-up from the get-go.

His obsession over food is another aspect of his character that is kinda overblown in Super, and one I didn't pay much attention to at first glance, due to its gag-rooted nature, but it's a fundamental aspect of the character when coupled with his obsession over respect. He doesn't let civilizations live just because of good food, he'll let them live if they treat him with respect. Super gives actual meaning to his pettiness. He can either spare you or kill you depending on how you treat him.

A fascinating part of Beerus' character is his moral alignment: he's constantly being portrayed as evil to us, the audience, yet the characters in the show (namely Kaio, Kaioshin and even Goku after Kaio explains it to him) always refuse to call him as such. Despite his sadistic side, his destruction does have meaning, even if the way he chooses his planets doesn't. Super brings up the question "Is it right to call a being evil when his purpose in life is to destroy?". One can say this question was borrowed from Boo, but said arc never bothered to delve into the moral and ethical implications of such. Fascinating lines such as #11's "This is a battle between Gods. How could human lives possibly compare?" make it clear that Super is trying to provoke thought.

One can say that Beerus' high-and-mighty nature is similar to Freeza. But unlike him (and Cell), who simply pretends that he's above everyone else, Beerus, by the laws of the multiverse that he exists on, actually IS superior to everyone else. In his mind, he's a "generous God", generous enough to spare their planet when destruction is in his very name, he deserves respect as he is, in any sense of the word, superior to all of them.

An "evil" God, that's a fairly common archetype in fiction. But it's the first time Dragon Ball ever does anything of the sort. It's not the first time we've had an amoral character, we've had one in the form of Boo, but it's the first time where an amoral character isn't being punished for his actions because he simply cannot be. It works even better when you take into account that Beerus serves as an anti-Goku (even more-so than someone like Perfect Cell), as there's an interesting duality between the two. They share incredible similarities: both share a huge love for food and, when not eating, they seek new challenges to test their strength. Take away the destroyer God aspect of Beerus' personality and he represents what Goku one day may become: someone who got so strong he constantly gets bored because there's nobody to challenge him (Whis doesn't count because he's stronger than Beerus and it's pretty much hinted at that Beerus will never surpass him), to clash with him at equal (or close enough) strength. Goku empathizes with Beerus' struggle and talks to him, and the God gets annoyed, screaming "You can't possibly understand", which is true considering Goku has yet to be in his place.

Beerus' character arc is closed off nicely in episode #13. When Goku loses his God power, Beerus calls him a "friend" and decides to give him a proper goodbye. What follows is Goku's fantastic "I am me" line. That's such a brilliant line, considering that Beerus has been calling Goku the "Super Saiyan God" the entire fight, and that everyone was expecting Goku to lose the moment the God power disappeared. Beerus never acknowledged Goku's strength before that point, he only acknowledged the Super Saiyan God's.

In hindsight, Beerus is a fantastically-written character, one of Dragon Ball's best. He's written in a way that it's impossible to say that it's not on purpose. I think both Super and BoG's depictions of the character are fantastic, but I personally prefer Super's for the added depth to the character.

[ekrolo2]

Beerus didn't want the Saiyan's gone because they were evil, Beerus doesn't care about concepts like that, we never know in the context of the films but its far more likely they just pissed him off with something trivial like in Super.

[Blackstripe]

Your post was quite well-written, Doctor. You made some excellent points that are worth considering. I'll have to think on that for a bit.

[LightBing]

Unfortunately, I predict him to have the good aspects of his character suppressed. If he continues his job, Goku can't know about it or he would have to take action. He can't make use of his selfishness to destroy everything that annoys him, if he is with the main cast. They'll probably sideline him to a supporting rule, were the personality traits on display are his love for food and some threats here and there of destruction.

Hoping he doesn't follow suit of Tenshinhan; a nuanced character that fell into the background. With it's potential only being partially extracted.

[Kamiccolo9]

I'd argue that Super's not even necessary for the analysis Doctor posted. I and a few others were saying essentially the same thing about Beerus just prior to Resurrection F being in theaters. Super apparently just fleshes out what was already there.

[Draconic]

I tended to agree with the OP at first, if only on a couple of points, but, man, Doctor just owned this thread. Excellent post all around.

[fadeddreams5]

I prefer Super's Beerus because he's portrayed in a way that supports what I saw him as before the series was released. I agree with most of what Doctor wrote, but I still see him as an evil jerk.

[precita]

Beerus is definitely way more evil in Super than the movie. Its disappointing, he comes across as Freeza 2.0 in Super when I never thought that about him in Battle of Gods.

Talk about ruining a character.

[Dbzk1999]

Beerus is definitely way more evil in Super than the movie. Its disappointing, he comes across as Freeza 2.0 in Super when I never thought that about him in Battle of Gods.

Talk about ruining a character.

Really? How?

[ekrolo2]

Beerus isn't ruined so much as the people involved with Super don't shy away from portraying him from what BoG infers him to be but goes out of its way not to show because then it would be hard to like him: an amoral God who's fine if you stay on his good side but can be completely merciless if you cross him for whatever reason. Personally I don't need to like every character to find them appealing so I'm fine with this.

[Lord Beerus]

Doctor. summed it up brilliantly, but I'll throw my own little two cents in anyway. Beerus certainly does appear more sinister and malicious in Super than he does in BOG, but that is only because Super took the time to flesh out his character in ways that BOG never did. Bringing greater highlights and emphasis on how flawed but also complex of a character he is.

[Cipher]

While Super does have him appear more sinister -- and that may be a necessary artifact of serializing the story and having to maintain tension -- I don't think we end up with anything radically different than the film, and in fact it helps explain some of the mechanics the movie glosses over. The film never implies he's taking any particular orders for his acts of destruction -- the series clarifies fully that what planets live and die when he's awake are entirely up to his whim; what matters is that some being exists to see planets out, like a natural disaster, and it's important he be too powerful to stop (and unlike rogue mortals like Boo, he fits into some vaguely defined diving balance and is kept in check by Whis). In the movie he really is ready to destroy Earths over disappointments or small slights; in the series we simply get examples of him following through.

And both are clear, but Super moreso, that being around Goku and co. change him. Goku manages to soften the heart of even the callous, selfish god of destruction, shrinking the world around him as he does so. In both versions it's right in line with previous arcs in the series.

Yes, losing little beats like his apologizing is a bit of a shame, but he doesn't fully own up to his recanting in the movie either. They're both very much cases of an evil character being softened by Goku (and let's call a spade a spade; both he and Whis are evil in either version, thinking nothing of the murder of millions; Dragon Ball's just whimsically amoral sometimes).

[dbzfan7]

Only thing I don't like about Super is when Beerus feels more like a Tyrant than a God. I fully understand his desire to be respected, but sometimes his form of wanting respect, is nothing short of how I think Freeza would be like. Another thing being he seemed close to destroying the entire universe. Though considering he cancelled out the attack that could have done that, perhaps he never was gonna put it at risk, or Goku convinced him not to do it somehow.

[LightBing]

Only thing I don't like about Super is when Beerus feels more like a Tyrant than a God. I fully understand his desire to be respected, but sometimes his form of wanting respect, is nothing short of how I think Freeza would be like. Another thing being he seemed close to destroying the entire universe. Though considering he cancelled out the attack that could have done that, perhaps he never was gonna put it at risk, or Goku convinced him not to do it somehow.

God is a wide term. See Old Testament Christian God, who punishes those that don't follow his morality. Beerus acts like a child would view a God. He gets what he wants, because he's so powerful nobody can oppose him, if they do, destroy them. Goku gave him a challenge and entertained him. That's why he purposely didn't destroy Earth. Whis serves as a Universe saver in case Beerus get's out of hand.

[dbzfan7]

Only thing I don't like about Super is when Beerus feels more like a Tyrant than a God. I fully understand his desire to be respected, but sometimes his form of wanting respect, is nothing short of how I think Freeza would be like. Another thing being he seemed close to destroying the entire universe. Though considering he cancelled out the attack that could have done that, perhaps he never was gonna put it at risk, or Goku convinced him not to do it somehow.

God is a wide term. See Old Testament Christian God, who punishes those that don't follow his morality. Beerus acts like a child would view a God. He gets what he wants, because he's so powerful nobody can oppose him, if they do, destroy them. Goku gave him a challenge and entertained him. That's why he purposely didn't destroy Earth. Whis serves as a Universe saver in case Beerus get's out of hand.

I'm comparing the two Beerus'. The movie one I don't think felt like much of a tyrant. He was legitimately fair and doesn't outright make people serve hand and foot to him. The King Vegeta thing being the stupidest thing I saw. For Beerus in Super he feels more like someone who wants more than respect, but to have people be reduced to his slaves to appease him. That seems more like a Freeza thing than Beerus.

[LightBing]

I'm comparing the two Beerus'. The movie one I don't think felt like much of a tyrant. He was legitimately fair and doesn't outright make people serve hand and foot to him. The King Vegeta thing being the stupidest thing I saw. For Beerus in Super he feels more like someone who wants more than respect, but to have people be reduced to his slaves to appease him. That seems more like a Freeza thing than Beerus.

He did the same in both the movie and tv series. Make demands and hoping to be served.The King Vegeta thing isn't an example of his behavior, he claims to dislike the Saiyans, that's why he told/suggested Freeza to destroy the planet. It's the exception to the rule. He's fair in every other aspect. He gave an opportunity by playing janken in both versions, after being attacked by everybody. He strolls around the Universe, if nobody upsets him, it's fine. We just got some examples in Super where things didn't go so well for the common folk.
He's petty and selfish but I wouldn't compare him to Freeza. The perfect example is when Freeza promises to spare Dende and Cargo, if he gets the Dragon Ball. Of course, he doesn't follow through. I'm pretty sure Beerus would.

[dbzfan7]

I'm comparing the two Beerus'. The movie one I don't think felt like much of a tyrant. He was legitimately fair and doesn't outright make people serve hand and foot to him. The King Vegeta thing being the stupidest thing I saw. For Beerus in Super he feels more like someone who wants more than respect, but to have people be reduced to his slaves to appease him. That seems more like a Freeza thing than Beerus.

He did the same in both the movie and tv series. Make demands and hoping to be served.The King Vegeta thing isn't an example of his behavior, he claims to dislike the Saiyans, that's why he told/suggested Freeza to destroy the planet. It's the exception to the rule. He's fair in every other aspect. He gave an opportunity by playing janken in both versions, after being attacked by everybody. He strolls around the Universe, if nobody upsets him, it's fine. We just got some examples in Super where things didn't go so well for the common folk.
He's petty and selfish but I wouldn't compare him to Freeza. The perfect example is when Freeza promises to spare Dende and Cargo, if he gets the Dragon Ball. Of course, he doesn't follow through. I'm pretty sure Beerus would.

The whole pillow thing is absolutely stupid. Not him hating the saiyans. I don't see movie Beerus going "Fetch me the best pillow in the universe." Beerus didn't come across to me as demanding or needing people to throw themselves at his feat. Just to respect his title and not piss him off. I don't see that in Super Beerus. I see someone who abuses their power.

I ain't too sure about that. If they pissed him off I'm pretty sure he'd maybe spare only one of them. Like how he blew up half a world when he wasn't fully satisfied.

[Polyphase Avatron]

I agree, the same thing bothered me.