Is Universe Destruction Dragon Ball Super Jumping the Shark?

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Is Universe Destruction Dragon Ball Super Jumping the Shark?

Post by Tonathan100 » Mon Oct 12, 2015 3:15 am

So I've been thinking about the new feat(s) (or multi-galaxy+ if you believe that DB has only 4 galaxies) that SSJG Goku and Beerus that are stated to be cpapable of turning the universe into a vacuum, and I have to say that Dragon Ball has really jumped the shark on this, for several reasons:

1. If the stakes are this obscenely high after only 12 to 13 episodes, then how can there be any fights? And what ludicrous jumps in power would come next? Multiversal devastation? Megaversal obliteration? Omniversal annihilation? Suggsversal decimation? The stakes can only get more ridiculous after already getting universe level DB Super.

2. It doesn't make any sense concerning Freeza's power growth. How does one go from planetbuster to universe destroyer with only 4 months of training? Even considering the fact that this is Dragon Ball, this severely strains the limits of suspension of disbelief.

3. To quote from a friend of mine:
Ugh this is why I've started to hate DBZ. All Toriyama wants to do is bask in the existential bukkake that is the DBZ fanboy fanbase (fan boys not cool fans like some of the other guys round here who don't wank). It's like a four year old going "And den dey blow up da universe becuse muh ocopus di durteh" It's frustrating, because it's gonna give religious fans of DBZ something to yell and scream about in youtube comments.
Due to the fact that this is blatant Pandering To The Base, the less desirable parts of the Dragon Ball fandom will (an already have) be absolutely obnoxious about this.

4. The spirit that Dragon Ball used to have is now truly gone. No longer is it the fun adventures about a human alien who wants to become the strongest martial artist in the universe, while fighting powerful villains to protect it. Now, it's just a power fantasy of recolors and KEWL NU POWAH-UPS that even FanFiction.Net would be embarrassed by.

At this point, I'm truly convinced that Akira Toriyama should have left Dragon Ball a finished work, because, at this point, he's trying way to hard.

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Re: Is Universe Destruction Dragon Ball Super Jumping the Sh

Post by Saiyan007 » Mon Oct 12, 2015 3:43 am

More like it's about damn time a Dragon Ball character actually showed something than destroying a planet.

That's the thing I always disliked about the manga,Toriyama would always write that this character is stronger than this guy but it was always I'm the form if a statement.Not too mention when said guy would threaten to destroy a planet it's like that's all?..... :roll:

Then BOG came out and I was like oh sweet a fight between two gods and boy when I saw it,it was lackluster because the fight was so tame from these gods and added nothing new,no new techniuqes no display of strength that separates them as gods

Then Super completely changes that,these guys are threatening to destroy the universe in 3 punches while not at full power :crazy: .Then we have a beam struggle threatening to destroy everything only for it to be nullified by Beerus who reveals later he wasn't even using his full power.

Super truly shows what happens when two gods go at it which is great.People always complained yeah DB is strong but they don't show it or it's all hype with these guys.It's good that DB can show how powerful this verse really is.

So I wouldn't say Universal destruction is bad since good writers will always find a way to get around obstacles and I have no doubt Toriyama and his team can find a way to keep the universe safe while these guys can accidentally destroy said universe.

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Re: Is Universe Destruction Dragon Ball Super Jumping the Sh

Post by Hitiro » Mon Oct 12, 2015 4:06 am

Tonathan100 wrote:1. If the stakes are this obscenely high after only 12 to 13 episodes, then how can there be any fights? And what ludicrous jumps in power would come next? Multiversal devastation? Megaversal obliteration? Omniversal annihilation? Suggsversal decimation? The stakes can only get more ridiculous after already getting universe level DB Super.
Well we saw from the episodes that Goku and Beerus purposely prevent universal destruction through various methods. Frankly the stakes haven't really increased since the Boo arc as we already had the universe at stake with Boo. All that's changed is that it will take a shorter amount of time for the universe to be destroyed.
Tonathan100 wrote:2. It doesn't make any sense concerning Freeza's power growth. How does one go from planetbuster to universe destroyer with only 4 months of training? Even considering the fact that this is Dragon Ball, this severely strains the limits of suspension of disbelief.
I would have to disagree. First of all Freeza is much stronger than a planet buster. When he is first introduced it takes only 0.4% of his true power to bust a planet with 10 times Earth's gravity. And if you want to believe that Vegeta could in the Saiyan arc then it just shows that his power was above planet buster in his first form too. And going by the fact that the base Saiyans aren't stronger than Freeza at 100% by the time of the BoG yet Super Perfect Cell claims he can wipe out the Solar system with his Kamehameha shows that the damage scaling is pretty substantial. Freeza would only need to get between 50x-100x stronger to be on par with Super Perfect Cell. Maybe even less. Thirdly just over a years worth of time Goku went from having a battle power of 416 to having a battle power of 3 million. That is an increase of 7211x.

Now considering Freeza has not trained a day in his life and is already as strong as he is then he should be capable of similar feats in training, if not more considering he is a prodigy himself. That would put Freeza at, at least, over 18 times stronger than SSJ3. Now you have to consider how much power Beerus needed to use against SSJ3 Goku. Depending on how much power he used we can easily discern how much power Beerus would need to use against Freeza after training. If SSJ3 Goku made him use 1% then he's need 18% against Freeza. 36% against him if SSJ3 Goku made him use 2% and 54% if SSJ3 Goku made him use 3%. Frankly, in my opinion, SSJ3 Goku was possibly around 5% Beerus as I don't think Vegeta's boost was that substantial. So in 4 months of training if we use around a years worth of growth for Goku, before his strength increases started to tail off, then Freeza could get up to 90% of Beerus based just on Goku's growth between the Saiyan arc and Namek arc.
Tonathan100 wrote:4. The spirit that Dragon Ball used to have is now truly gone. No longer is it the fun adventures about a human alien who wants to become the strongest martial artist in the universe, while fighting powerful villains to protect it. Now, it's just a power fantasy of recolors and KEWL NU POWAH-UPS that even FanFiction.Net would be embarrassed by.

At this point, I'm truly convinced that Akira Toriyama should have left Dragon Ball a finished work, because, at this point, he's trying way to hard.
I mean this is your personal opinion. I don't think it is that bad. What I am not a fan of is the pacing of Dragon Ball Super. It is extremely slow, even in comparison to DBZ.

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Re: Is Universe Destruction Dragon Ball Super Jumping the Sh

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Mon Oct 12, 2015 4:44 am

Meh, it's not the fist time in the franchise they have people worrying about some huge disaster happening just to increase the tension, but of course they come up with an excuse for why it doesn't happen. Although this time seemed even lazier than most (i.e. Elder Kaioshin being asked why the shockwaves weren't occurring anymore, saying "because it's just a fight" or some nonsense like that, not even trying to explain it).

I'm sure they'll have people as strong or stronger than SSJG Goku and Beerus fighting and there will be no threat to the universe, unless the plot suddenly says there has to be. It's best to follow the MST3K mantra here I think.
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Re: Is Universe Destruction Dragon Ball Super Jumping the Sh

Post by Kamiccolo9 » Mon Oct 12, 2015 10:09 am

I don't mind characters being able to "destroy the universe." Or whatever.

What I do take issue with, however, is them throwing that out so early in the show. What are they gonna do for the Freeza fight? "Oh that Goku, he's gonna (not) destroy the universe again!"

"No, wait, this time, he's gonna destroy TWO universes."
*Proceeds to not destroy two universes*
"Whew! That was a close one!"

The problem with escalation is that it has to stop somewhere, or else it just gets dumb.
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Re: Is Universe Destruction Dragon Ball Super Jumping the Sh

Post by Doctor. » Mon Oct 12, 2015 10:33 am

Kamiccolo9 wrote:I don't mind characters being able to "destroy the universe." Or whatever.

What I do take issue with, however, is them throwing that out so early in the show. What are they gonna do for the Freeza fight? "Oh that Goku, he's gonna (not) destroy the universe again!"

"No, wait, this time, he's gonna destroy TWO universes."
*Proceeds to not destroy two universes*
"Whew! That was a close one!"

The problem with escalation is that it has to stop somewhere, or else it just gets dumb.
I'd argue that it already reached that point when they became capable of destroying planets. Why does it matter if you can blow up the solar system, the galaxy, the universe or even the entire multiverse if you die once the planet is destroyed? Literally nobody cares about what you're able to destroy after that point.

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Re: Is Universe Destruction Dragon Ball Super Jumping the Sh

Post by Kamiccolo9 » Mon Oct 12, 2015 10:50 am

Doctor. wrote:
Kamiccolo9 wrote:I don't mind characters being able to "destroy the universe." Or whatever.

What I do take issue with, however, is them throwing that out so early in the show. What are they gonna do for the Freeza fight? "Oh that Goku, he's gonna (not) destroy the universe again!"

"No, wait, this time, he's gonna destroy TWO universes."
*Proceeds to not destroy two universes*
"Whew! That was a close one!"

The problem with escalation is that it has to stop somewhere, or else it just gets dumb.
I'd argue that it already reached that point when they became capable of destroying planets. Why does it matter if you can blow up the solar system, the galaxy, the universe or even the entire multiverse if you die once the planet is destroyed? Literally nobody cares about what you're able to destroy after that point.
Fair enough, and I see your point.

I'd argue, though, that at least a "planet" has a distinct "geographical" boundary. Same with a Solar System, to a less defined extent. A universe is more of an abstract concept. It's not as easy to conceptualize, and comes off more as a statistic (que Joseph Stalin quote here). You can't wrap your brain around it as easily; it's too big. And it's completely unnecessary because, extrapolating from what you said, the exact same outcome could have been achieved by messing up the planet.

Anyway, I remained convinced that, until something indicates otherwise, all the "god power" will be removed prior to the 28th Budokai anyway. Maybe Goku wakes up the morning of the tournament and reveals that BoG, RF, and Super were a dream.

And plenty of people "care," even if it's just the part of the fanbase that the rest of us want to amputate from the body of fans.
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Re: Is Universe Destruction Dragon Ball Super Jumping the Sh

Post by pacz360 » Mon Oct 12, 2015 12:12 pm

Nope and frankly I'm pleased with it for years we had to speculate how powerful dbz characters after the cell and buu saga whether they could this or that.plus series like bastard,ttgl,tenchi muyo took major escalation of power so what db doing isn't any different to me it' nice to see them destroying something other than planet which was not impressive in the series anymore.

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Re: Is Universe Destruction Dragon Ball Super Jumping the Sh

Post by voltlunok » Mon Oct 12, 2015 1:00 pm

Is the universal destruction jumping the shark? No. Dragon Ball as a whole jumped the shark long ago and it just kept escalating things until we got into a serious relationship with the shark and this feat is just us laying in bed with the shark post coitus going "So was it good for you?"

I will say this is the point where a lot of other franchises are looking at the door while dragon ball walks in all fashionably late and Saint Seiya is all "Took ya long enough."
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Re: Is Universe Destruction Dragon Ball Super Jumping the Sh

Post by ekrolo2 » Mon Oct 12, 2015 2:11 pm

If this was the last battle of Super or one fairly close to that point, it would be fine. Using it this early is the same mistake Z suffered from by having Vegeta be capable of blowing up a planet fairly early into the Z material. Really takes the wind out of some attacks like the Final Flash later on.
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Re: Is Universe Destruction Dragon Ball Super Jumping the Sh

Post by fadeddreams5 » Mon Oct 12, 2015 2:29 pm

First of all, it's not certain, and I doubt, Toriyama had any involvement in Toei's decision to increase the scale of Goku and Beerus' battle. In fact, I recall reading somewhere that he lets them handle the fights.

Secondly, I also think it was a dumb decision in their part to escalate their powers to "universal-busting" so early. I've always wanted the characters to have more feats, but this is ridiculous. They should've saved this level of power for the final fight in Super. For this one, they could have had Goku and Beerus threatening the respective solar system they're in (or just a few neighboring planets), as well as affect the climate of Earth, through their battle. That's it. It would have already been a greater feat than anything we had seen in DBZ.
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Re: Is Universe Destruction Dragon Ball Super Jumping the Sh

Post by Deathbringer » Mon Oct 12, 2015 3:07 pm

Toriyama isn't writing scripts for Super, it's unclear what his role is but it's not very likely that he's heavily involved in the making of this anime the same way he was for BoG and RoF.
Hitiro wrote: What I am not a fan of is the pacing of Dragon Ball Super. It is extremely slow, even in comparison to DBZ.
We've had 14 episodes of DBS so far and we've not only established a new villain but also ended the fight with him and are about to begin the next story arc. Episode 14 of DBZ Goku is still on Snake Way stopping off at Princess Snake's castle...so when you actually compare it to DBZ it isn't that slow. We will never again get a Dragon Ball anime that's a slow paced as DBZ, especially since there isn't a manga series the show has to slow down as to not catch up with. It only feels slow because we've already seen this story done in the space of an hour and a half movie.

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Re: Is Universe Destruction Dragon Ball Super Jumping the Sh

Post by dbzfan7 » Mon Oct 12, 2015 3:43 pm

I kinda think so. We went from Planet to supposedly Solar, to Universe out of nowhere. Being Gods I don't find that so outlandish, but considering gods before in Dragon Ball never were really anything outlandish, this feels like some fan made it up. I welcome it as Dragon Ball has always been weird with guy who's enough to blow up planet always being the main threat, but it still feels like the progression jump is a little too big and soon. But hey they're like super gods, so I guess it's understandable.
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Re: Is Universe Destruction Dragon Ball Super Jumping the Sh

Post by Zephyr » Mon Oct 12, 2015 3:54 pm

voltlunok wrote:Is the universal destruction jumping the shark? No. Dragon Ball as a whole jumped the shark long ago and it just kept escalating things until we got into a serious relationship with the shark and this feat is just us laying in bed with the shark post coitus going "So was it good for you?"
This here reflects my thoughts pretty strongly. Given everything that had come before it, Goku being an alien was one hell of a shark jumping moment, I feel. And it only continued to get sillier from there.

RandomGuy's sig has a quote from Herms that perfectly sums up how utterly fucking ridiculous the power inflation gets during the Freeza arc, and how it's completely played straight.
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly. At least in the Boo arc Toriyama seems to know the kind of story he's telling.
Then, of course, Goku's new conveniently-revealed-and-abused alien biology allows him to conveniently fulfill an alien prophecy which conveniently allows him to one-up the already-fucking-stretching-it-powerful eunuch space Hitler. Then a local mad scientist engineer makes some robits that completely leave both of those things in the dust, and then combines everyone's genes into a super science monster which already left those robits in the dust, but he can eat them and leave the people who were stronger than him in the dust. Then an eldritch bubble gum genie from time immemorial is released, and of course it's stronger. But wait, now the super powerful alien-prophecy-realizing power houses can fucking combine, and become so powerful to the point where it's commonly accepted to be of gag levels.

Only now, we have a narcoleptic kitty cat with anger problems being the conscious source of entropy in the universe (and of course he leaves even the combined super space warrior fusion in the dust), doing battle with an even more powerful legendary form from the aliens who had the previous alien prophecy, and their mere clashes threaten the well being of the universe. Then Freeza comes back and of course he'll find a way to conveniently catch up (everyone else*** has been conveniently doing it at every other point in the story, why the fuck not?). And coming up next, we're likely to see it go even further beyond.

Given DB's roots with gag logic, that whole Namek arc's worth of escalation-of-destructive-force, and the fact that they even tried to move on from there (and succeeded)....shit's already gone out the window. The creators can bring on whatever silly destructive shit they want; it's long since felt completely at home, and I'm still loving every minute of it.

***Not literally everyone else, and not at literally every point in the story, but it's still little more than the next pebble on a mountain of "gee, that's pretty fucking convenient, isn't it?"
Kamiccolo9 wrote:A universe is more of an abstract concept. It's not as easy to conceptualize, and comes off more as a statistic (que Joseph Stalin quote here). You can't wrap your brain around it as easily; it's too big.
To be fair, given what we know of Dragon World Astronomy, the "universe" is actually a finite space that one can measure and such. And this is regardless of if we're talking about the space within the lower half of the globe, or the globe itself.

Plus, there are 12 of those globes floating around. Surely they're floating in some sort of dimension, in which one would find themselves if they were to erase their presently-occupied globe from existence (and were able to survive that level of destruction).

Then again, given the way the Kaioshin were describing what Goku and Beerus' clashes would do, it seems like they wouldn't so much destroy the globe itself, but rather everything within it. I remember Old Kaioshin mentioning the universe becoming an "empty void" or something to that effect. Which would mean that we're still not necessarily even at "Globe Busting". :P

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Re: Is Universe Destruction Dragon Ball Super Jumping the Sh

Post by Friezacooler » Mon Oct 12, 2015 5:30 pm

Umm I am sure freeza was stated several times as being able to destroy the universe even Super buu and Buuhan. Heck What BoG did is no different fromwhat GT did except in a different way. So DBZ has achieved universal destruction way before Super.

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Re: Is Universe Destruction Dragon Ball Super Jumping the Sh

Post by Deathbringer » Mon Oct 12, 2015 7:30 pm

The series might have already jumped the shark when death lost all consequence, or when they gave out Super Saiyan to everyone and treated it as a joke.

Seriously, the main character has been brought back to life twice, the series jumped the shark long ago.

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Re: Is Universe Destruction Dragon Ball Super Jumping the Sh

Post by pacz360 » Mon Oct 12, 2015 8:40 pm

As people pointed this series already jumped the shark along time ago to the point death has no consequences anymore plus freeza before coming back to life was surpassed by two teenagers from some guys lab hell you could say he was villain version of yamcha to a degree the guy needed a four months asspull to be at the top only to fail once again.

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Re: Is Universe Destruction Dragon Ball Super Jumping the Sh

Post by Hitiro » Tue Oct 13, 2015 5:30 am

Deathbringer wrote:We've had 14 episodes of DBS so far and we've not only established a new villain but also ended the fight with him and are about to begin the next story arc. Episode 14 of DBZ Goku is still on Snake Way stopping off at Princess Snake's castle...so when you actually compare it to DBZ it isn't that slow. We will never again get a Dragon Ball anime that's a slow paced as DBZ, especially since there isn't a manga series the show has to slow down as to not catch up with. It only feels slow because we've already seen this story done in the space of an hour and a half movie.
We've had 14 episodes, at least 12 of which have been BoG material. The length of the BoG movie is only around 4 episodes yet they managed to extend that by 3 times as much somehow. In comparison, Goku vs. Vegeta takes 6, Goku vs. Freeza takes 18 episodes, Cell vs Goku takes 3 episodes, Gohan vs Cell takes 10 and Goku vs Pure Boo takes 8. This battle is already longer than the majority of fights from DBZ. The only one that takes longer is Goku vs. Freeza. There is no reason for the BoG material to take around 12 episodes to be covered when it it could have been covered in significantly less time. As we saw from the actual BoG movie itself. You say that DBZ had to slow down to not catch up with the manga but there is no reason for DBS to be slowing down yet it clearly is. We had practically a whole episode of the BoG material just about Pilaf and his gang. It is pretty unnecessary. The pacing is horrendous for a show that isn't constricted by a manga.

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Re: Is Universe Destruction Dragon Ball Super Jumping the Sh

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Tue Oct 13, 2015 5:36 am

Goku vs. Freeza was only 18 episodes? Do you mean in Kai or the original anime?
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Re: Is Universe Destruction Dragon Ball Super Jumping the Sh

Post by irreality » Tue Oct 13, 2015 11:46 am

Hitiro wrote:
Deathbringer wrote:We've had 14 episodes of DBS so far and we've not only established a new villain but also ended the fight with him and are about to begin the next story arc. Episode 14 of DBZ Goku is still on Snake Way stopping off at Princess Snake's castle...so when you actually compare it to DBZ it isn't that slow. We will never again get a Dragon Ball anime that's a slow paced as DBZ, especially since there isn't a manga series the show has to slow down as to not catch up with. It only feels slow because we've already seen this story done in the space of an hour and a half movie.
We've had 14 episodes, at least 12 of which have been BoG material. The length of the BoG movie is only around 4 episodes yet they managed to extend that by 3 times as much somehow. In comparison, Goku vs. Vegeta takes 6, Goku vs. Freeza takes 18 episodes, Cell vs Goku takes 3 episodes, Gohan vs Cell takes 10 and Goku vs Pure Boo takes 8. This battle is already longer than the majority of fights from DBZ. The only one that takes longer is Goku vs. Freeza. There is no reason for the BoG material to take around 12 episodes to be covered when it it could have been covered in significantly less time. As we saw from the actual BoG movie itself. You say that DBZ had to slow down to not catch up with the manga but there is no reason for DBS to be slowing down yet it clearly is. We had practically a whole episode of the BoG material just about Pilaf and his gang. It is pretty unnecessary. The pacing is horrendous for a show that isn't constricted by a manga.

You are talking about the actual fights, though? The Goku vs Beerus fight was 5 episodes, which seems about average/on the short side for the major fight of an arc. Cell vs Goku was the only one that was shorter, because it was not the major fight of that arc -- Cell vs. Gohan was.

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