Is Universe Destruction Dragon Ball Super Jumping the Shark?

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

Moderators: Kanzenshuu Staff, General Help

User avatar
Doctor.
Banned
Posts: 10529
Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2014 10:02 am
Location: Portugal

Re: Is Universe Destruction Dragon Ball Super Jumping the Sh

Post by Doctor. » Tue Oct 13, 2015 11:51 am

Hitiro wrote:We've had 14 episodes, at least 12 of which have been BoG material. The length of the BoG movie is only around 4 episodes yet they managed to extend that by 3 times as much somehow. In comparison, Goku vs. Vegeta takes 6, Goku vs. Freeza takes 18 episodes, Cell vs Goku takes 3 episodes, Gohan vs Cell takes 10 and Goku vs Pure Boo takes 8. This battle is already longer than the majority of fights from DBZ. The only one that takes longer is Goku vs. Freeza. There is no reason for the BoG material to take around 12 episodes to be covered when it it could have been covered in significantly less time. As we saw from the actual BoG movie itself. You say that DBZ had to slow down to not catch up with the manga but there is no reason for DBS to be slowing down yet it clearly is. We had practically a whole episode of the BoG material just about Pilaf and his gang. It is pretty unnecessary. The pacing is horrendous for a show that isn't constricted by a manga.
So why are you comparing an ARC to a fight in terms of the number of episodes? The Goku vs Beerus fight was 4 and a half episodes long. The BoG arc is the third shortest in the franchise.

User avatar
Hitiro
I Live Here
Posts: 3433
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2011 8:43 pm

Re: Is Universe Destruction Dragon Ball Super Jumping the Sh

Post by Hitiro » Tue Oct 13, 2015 5:28 pm

Doctor. wrote:So why are you comparing an ARC to a fight in terms of the number of episodes? The Goku vs Beerus fight was 4 and a half episodes long. The BoG arc is the third shortest in the franchise.
irreality wrote:You are talking about the actual fights, though? The Goku vs Beerus fight was 5 episodes, which seems about average/on the short side for the major fight of an arc. Cell vs Goku was the only one that was shorter, because it was not the major fight of that arc -- Cell vs. Gohan was.
I'm including the fighting Goku did on the Kaio planet. Which brings it up to 6 episodes. The reason I'm including Cell vs. Goku is because I'm just naming some of the fights. I'm not going to list off all of the fights between the characters but it is already longer than the majority. Like I said. Raditz vs. Goku and Piccolo. Nappa vs. Z Fighters, etc. It is understandable with these fights because they were trying to make sure they don't catch up with the manga. But Super has no such issue so I don't see why these battles were drawn out for so long. It was demonstrated in the movie that all the fights we say could have been handled in around 4 episodes. There is also the fact that almost half of the arc has literally nothing happening in it related to the actual story. At least in DBZ the downtime between fights were padded with more useful filler. Pilaf and his gang frankly received too much screen time for doing absolutely nothing.

Pannaliciour
OMG CRAZY REG
Posts: 774
Joined: Thu Jul 30, 2015 6:04 pm

Re: Is Universe Destruction Dragon Ball Super Jumping the Sh

Post by Pannaliciour » Tue Oct 13, 2015 6:06 pm

Why do people complain about DBS? Just be glad we have this anime otherwise we had nothing. Akira is a great man, he knows wat he is doing. I am very glad they introduce Bog and Rof again in Super, because the movies doesn't explaine everything.

I think they will do much better if they make Goku (and the others) more serious (like ssj on namek screaming against Gohan serious) or serious like gohan against cell jr. Now its all to nice (girly). When I saw dbz for the first time i was scary, but scary in a good way, i liked it. Now i think sometimes I am watching a comedy. Fact: the best dbz moments are the moments that shit is getting serious.
Last edited by Pannaliciour on Tue Oct 13, 2015 6:19 pm, edited 2 times in total.

User avatar
SingleFringe&Sparks
I'm pretty cozy, here...
Posts: 1642
Joined: Mon Dec 09, 2013 10:55 pm
Location: Mt. Paozu/East District

Re: Is Universe Destruction Dragon Ball Super Jumping the Sh

Post by SingleFringe&Sparks » Tue Oct 13, 2015 6:12 pm

The only way I could see this fixing itself is is someone in the next arc actually destroys this universe, considering the claim is an incomplete feat. To lay out the stakes in a climax, it would have to be reversed or fixed by the end of the series. If they did destroy it, then I could see it going into the Champa arc to wish it back with the Super Dragonballs.
Zephyr wrote:The fandom's collective fetishizing of "moments" is also ridiculous to me. No, not everyone needs a fucking "shine" moment. If that's all you want, then all you want is fanservice, rather than an actual coherent story. And of course those aren't mutually exclusive; you could have a coherent story with "shine" moments! But if a story is perfectly coherent (and I'm really not seeing any compelling arguments that this one is anything but, despite constantly recurring, really poorly reasoned, attempts to argue otherwise), and you're bemoaning the lack of "shine" moments as a reason for the story's poor quality, then you're letting your thirst for "shine" moments obfuscate your ability to detect basic storytelling when it's right in front of you.

User avatar
Araki
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1453
Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2015 8:54 am

Re: Is Universe Destruction Dragon Ball Super Jumping the Sh

Post by Araki » Tue Oct 13, 2015 6:22 pm

Tonathan100 wrote:No longer is it the fun adventures about a human alien who wants to become the strongest martial artist in the universe, while fighting powerful villains to protect it.
"Fun adventures of a human alien who wants to be the strongest martial artist"
I think you're like 30 years too late on that one. Maybe it jumped the shark when he learned how to do a Kamehameha. :lol:

Seriously though, that's exactly what Goku is still doing. There is the dumb youtube fanbase, but there are also people who just like to act snob.
Hitiro wrote:At least in DBZ the downtime between fights were padded with more useful filler.
You can't be serious. How much of Goku vs Freeza was padded by filler? More than 50% of the screentime in those episodes was about Chichi trying to go to the space or Bulma adventures. They amounted to what, exactly?
Not even 15% of the Goku vs Beerus episodes was made of filler. It was a lot more focused on the fight than DBZ used to do, there's not even room for discussion here. Just don't compare the length of an arc to a fight, as that's extremely biased. If you wanna use Goku vs Cell, your reference here should be Vegeta and everyone else vs Beerus, which took two episodes.

TheBritWriter
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 115
Joined: Sat Sep 14, 2013 6:29 pm

Re: Is Universe Destruction Dragon Ball Super Jumping the Sh

Post by TheBritWriter » Tue Oct 13, 2015 7:34 pm

For me the series jumped the shark when Dr Wheelo stated he'll destroy the earth...a friggin brain in a suit!

Personally I welcome the idea that the universe was at stake, it is a battle between gods, why shouldn't it? What I agree with though is that they should have saved such a scaled fight for the final one, now we have to wonder how they can top it with Freeza. Also the universe at stake did come a bit soon but only because the jump was so big, as a whole the only thing we got of a big scale destruction animation wise was the opening of the 1st broly movie, but even that was bit of a dud given everyone still fought on a planet end of the day.

With Goku and Beerus at least they fought on the ground, air, sea and space. Even Gogeta from GT hung round a city wasteland, so to finally have a spectacle of fighting was refreshing then just a ruined city or endless green valley.

I would say people have fooled themselves when they think DBZ had good pacing, it had good fights, tension etc of course but the number of fillers and characters doing nothing was at times testing, but people don't see that anymore as they just go on video search engine site and enter X v Y fight no filler, they may see a bit where someone makes a epic speech but on a whole it is so much easier to skip the bulk of an episode or edit it our entirely that when watched people don't realise it.

User avatar
Cipher
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 5469
Joined: Wed Oct 21, 2009 11:54 pm
Location: Nagano
Contact:

Re: Is Universe Destruction Dragon Ball Super Jumping the Sh

Post by Cipher » Tue Oct 13, 2015 8:26 pm

Ugh this is why I've started to hate DBZ. All Toriyama wants to do is bask in the existential bukkake that is the DBZ fanboy fanbase (fan boys not cool fans like some of the other guys round here who don't wank). It's like a four year old going "And den dey blow up da universe becuse muh ocopus di durteh" It's frustrating, because it's gonna give religious fans of DBZ something to yell and scream about in youtube comments.
Not only are the universe-destroying blows most likely a Toei addition (though it's nice to have some concrete increase of scale for once), if anything, Toriyama has made it clear with recent material that he couldn't care less about what the fans want and is out to make something entertaining and personally amusing, as it should be.

User avatar
Hitiro
I Live Here
Posts: 3433
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2011 8:43 pm

Re: Is Universe Destruction Dragon Ball Super Jumping the Sh

Post by Hitiro » Wed Oct 14, 2015 3:28 am

Araki wrote:You can't be serious. How much of Goku vs Freeza was padded by filler? More than 50% of the screentime in those episodes was about Chichi trying to go to the space or Bulma adventures. They amounted to what, exactly?
Not even 15% of the Goku vs Beerus episodes was made of filler. It was a lot more focused on the fight than DBZ used to do, there's not even room for discussion here. Just don't compare the length of an arc to a fight, as that's extremely biased. If you wanna use Goku vs Cell, your reference here should be Vegeta and everyone else vs Beerus, which took two episodes.
That's entirely incorrect. ChiChi appeared for all of 5 mins in the anime. That is not 50% If you look at just Pilaf and his gangs screen time in BoG they have 1 to 2 episodes worth of screen time alone. And no, it wasn't focused on the fight. We have 12 episodes only 7 of which had fight scenes which didn't make up the entirety of the episodes and so we have another 5 episodes of pure padding. Even the SSJGod transformation took 6+ mins whereas every DBZ SSJ transformation were 4 mins long.

User avatar
fexus
Beyond-the-Beyond Newbie
Posts: 466
Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2015 3:53 pm

Re: Is Universe Destruction Dragon Ball Super Jumping the Sh

Post by fexus » Wed Oct 14, 2015 5:44 am

Not really. I mean Beerus is a god. A god of destruction. He is at the highest possible position in the universe. He is tasked to keep the balance and destroy stuff in the universe. Just imagine if suddenly Buu went on with the ramapage and absorbed almost everybody in the universe. Beerus needs to destroy him to keep the balance of the universe. Destroying the universe is the least he could do to properly keep the balance.
I ask thou, WHY MUST IT BE ME?
Your weakness is your strength.
Are you reading this? If you are, I just want to let you know that I'm a GREAT GUY. :lol:

User avatar
DragonHermit
Regular
Posts: 585
Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2015 12:07 am

Re: Is Universe Destruction Dragon Ball Super Jumping the Sh

Post by DragonHermit » Wed Oct 14, 2015 1:06 pm

To me the problem is not so much the magnitude of their physical power, as it is the journey to that power. Power increases and transformations in Dragon Ball had a symbiotic relationship with character development. Every time a character got stronger, he also developed an aspect of his personality.

Kaioken followed a bit of the "equivalent exchange" principle in FMA. You want to get stronger? Fine. How much are you willing to put on the line for that transformation? Are you willing to put your existence on the line to save your close ones?. The SSJ1 transformation was birthed out of an air of helplessness and surrender. As Goku said, it came out of a need not a desire. We saw how Goku, Gohan, Vegeta, Future Trunks, had to go through this process. The SSJ2 transformation was a "warrior" type of transformation, where rage was the key ingredient. While it was nothing special for born fighters like Goku and Vegeta, it was a major stepping stone in the character development of a kid like Gohan who was not a born warrior. While other kids played with their friends, because of his talent he was forced unto the battlefield at 12 years old. An innocent kid was forced to grow up early and turn into an adult and a warrior because that's what the world demanded of him. SSJ3, although nothing special, was a transformation that was about using every single drop of energy in one's body. Goku's tremendous will power pushed him beyond the bounds and limits of the conventional.

My point is that what matters is the question whether the character is also developing with the power increase, or is it just an increase of power just for the sake of increasing your power? When it's the latter, the show will have jumped the shark.

User avatar
Scott
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 247
Joined: Mon Mar 18, 2013 3:35 am
Location: On a little blue planet in the Milky Way Galaxy.

Re: Is Universe Destruction Dragon Ball Super Jumping the Sh

Post by Scott » Fri Oct 16, 2015 7:02 pm

Pannaliciour wrote:Why do people complain about DBS? Just be glad we have this anime otherwise we had nothing. Akira is a great man, he knows wat he is doing.
Why do people complain ? uh, i dunno, maybe because some people don't like certain things about it.

So far, i wish Akira Toriyama hadn't even bothered to make any new Dragon Ball material. Since he returned to Dragon Ball, pretty much everything about it has been bad.

Gmez9
Newbie
Posts: 28
Joined: Mon Sep 28, 2015 12:20 pm

Re: Is Universe Destruction Dragon Ball Super Jumping the Sh

Post by Gmez9 » Thu Oct 22, 2015 1:09 am

I like it, just not the way it was executed. It's clear they are nowhere near universe busters, but from the impact of their hits, the shochwave from both warriors is causing a distortion of time and space through the vibrations of the shockwaves that get stronger as it spreads out. They ignored science but its an anime lol.

My gripe as a goku fan is he has never really been a badass just emailing on an enemy with a so called new transformation. It was always a struggle till the end. I would like for him to be the strongest in the end, but not without surrounding him with a cast of strong warriors (z senshi). Fix gohan lol. I wish somehow the others (everyone not goku and vegita) could get training from goku after his training with whis and there was a final battle that included uub.

Post Reply