How involved is Toriyama in Super?

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Neon Z
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Re: How involved is Toriyama in Super?

Post by Neon Z » Sun Oct 25, 2015 9:31 am

Xeztin wrote:It's probably something like that and Toei run's wild with the rest of it, as said above I can't imagine Toriyama at his age writing a script of every line said in the Anime.
There are script writers credited for every episode and Toriyama never gets even co-credit, so Toriyama certainly isn't writing anything line by line.
Chiki wrote:What do you mean by manga canon? Are you including all the previous Dragonball manga chapters? In that case, DB Super chapters don't fit into manga canon simply because they're also manga. That is fallacious reasoning, because for something to be canon has nothing to do with the medium that the fiction is in.

By the same reasoning, movies fit in the movie canon, but only by themselves, not including the other movies with Broly and stuff.

Super does not fit into Kai's canon. It fits into the manga canon with the previous Dragonball manga, because Toriyama did not write Kai.

The way we decide something is canon or not is easy:

1. Did the author write the plot it? (Dragonball manga, BoG, RoF and Super were written by him)
2. If the author wrote the plot it, did he remake it? (BoG and RoF are eliminated because they were remade)

The original manga and Dragon Ball Super fit into the same canon. Toriyama is retelling the stories of BoG and RoF in Dragon Ball Super, so Super takes priority in the canon. Dragonball Kai, the original Dragonball Z, Dragonball GT, the movies, BoG and RoF are not canon.
The Super anime, at least as the final product that we get, rather than Toriyama's outline, has included characters who only existed in the original anime (or Kai) but not the original manga. It also used a design for Kid Vegeta that only existed in the anime too (originating in the Bardock Special), rather than Toriyama's own kid Vegeta that we just saw in the last couple of years in BoGs and Dragonball Minus. So, saying that it follows the manga continuity is rather odd.

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Re: How involved is Toriyama in Super?

Post by Blade » Sun Oct 25, 2015 5:15 pm

Travis Touchdown wrote:Toriyama's involvement with Super sounds more and more like his involvement with GT.
In terms of day-to-day hands-on involvement, it's probably not dissimilar, but I think the key thing is that with Super, Toei are actually adapting his own story from BoG and RoF, whereas in GT, the direction of the show was handled entirely by Toei. Toriyama gave them a couple of character/mecha designs, a logo, and a few alien planet backdrops.
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Re: How involved is Toriyama in Super?

Post by Chiki » Mon Oct 26, 2015 7:19 am

Neon Z wrote:
Xeztin wrote:It's probably something like that and Toei run's wild with the rest of it, as said above I can't imagine Toriyama at his age writing a script of every line said in the Anime.
There are script writers credited for every episode and Toriyama never gets even co-credit, so Toriyama certainly isn't writing anything line by line.
Chiki wrote:What do you mean by manga canon? Are you including all the previous Dragonball manga chapters? In that case, DB Super chapters don't fit into manga canon simply because they're also manga. That is fallacious reasoning, because for something to be canon has nothing to do with the medium that the fiction is in.

By the same reasoning, movies fit in the movie canon, but only by themselves, not including the other movies with Broly and stuff.

Super does not fit into Kai's canon. It fits into the manga canon with the previous Dragonball manga, because Toriyama did not write Kai.

The way we decide something is canon or not is easy:

1. Did the author write the plot it? (Dragonball manga, BoG, RoF and Super were written by him)
2. If the author wrote the plot it, did he remake it? (BoG and RoF are eliminated because they were remade)

The original manga and Dragon Ball Super fit into the same canon. Toriyama is retelling the stories of BoG and RoF in Dragon Ball Super, so Super takes priority in the canon. Dragonball Kai, the original Dragonball Z, Dragonball GT, the movies, BoG and RoF are not canon.
The Super anime, at least as the final product that we get, rather than Toriyama's outline, has included characters who only existed in the original anime (or Kai) but not the original manga. It also used a design for Kid Vegeta that only existed in the anime too (originating in the Bardock Special), rather than Toriyama's own kid Vegeta that we just saw in the last couple of years in BoGs and Dragonball Minus. So, saying that it follows the manga continuity is rather odd.
That's fine. Situations like this happen all the time in fictional works, for example between Megaman X and Megaman Zero, Zero gets a completely different character design. But this doesn't mean that Megaman X or Megaman Zero is not canon. It just means that we shouldn't take fictional universes too seriously, and they can involve logical contradictions at times.

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