Chances of Gohan Being Awesome in 'Super'

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Re: Chances of Gohan Being Awesome in 'Super'

Post by Doctor. » Sat Oct 31, 2015 1:42 pm

I think Gohan was at his best in the Boo arc. Easily, at that.

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Re: Chances of Gohan Being Awesome in 'Super'

Post by fadeddreams5 » Sat Oct 31, 2015 1:50 pm

ekrolo2 wrote:His so-called finest moment for many fans is little more than a completely one sided fight in his favor that he doesn't just finish because Cell Saga logic that is completely unwatchable bar the Kamehameha bits & Goku dying. So yeah, I gotta agree with Doctor here, he's incredibly boring after his initial good showing against the Jrs.
Doctor. wrote:
Why? An innocent kid who gains a huge amount of power and lets it get to his head, how often do you see that? Then he starts killing the enemy with no difficulty at all, that's extremely boring.
I don't know about you guys, but some of the best parts in this series are the beatdowns to me. Goku vs Nappa. Goku vs. Ginyu Force. Trunks against Frieza and King Cold.

Seeing Cell completely at Gohan's mercy was incredibly entertaining. It's exactly what I wanted to see. The beam struggle at the end made it all the more worthwhile.
That's why he's irresponsible.
How? The form amplified his emotions; this is what SSJ forms do, and this one MUCH more so. He couldn't control what he was feeling until his father's action brought him back to reality. This is exactly why he was so scared of unleashing this power in the first place!
His father died BECAUSE of him, and yet, instead of taking responsibility for his actions and fighting until the end, he just gives up. That's extremely cowardly, especially after he had no problem killing the Cell Jrs a moment before. What, beating others is fun but when the tables are turned he can't take the heat?

Toriyama purposefully made SS2 Gohan the worst version of the character. So it completely baffles me how one can say they like him.
I agree with this. Him giving up was the lowest point of the character. The only instance I don't approve of him.

That said, I consider him the most flawed version of the character, not the worst. I appreciate this a lot. Everything happened so fast for Gohan in this arc; it was the perfect shit storm.
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fadeddreams5 wrote:
Doctor. wrote:Before transforming into Super Saiyan 2, yes. After the transformation sequence? He was boring, generic, irresponsible and a coward.
Complete opposite of boring to me. SSJ2 Gohan and boring... that's an oxymoron. lol. Is it really generic by '80s standards?

His power took control of his judgement. When his father died, he snapped into reality. When he lost an arm, he temporarily lost resolve. And then, hearing his father's voice allowed him to regain it. The worst bit of writing in this arc, imo, was Gohan almost letting Cell blow up the world without fighting back at all. That was bad.
Well, it was broadcast in the '90s, not the 80s. I would say the sweet prodigy turned bad was a common 90s trope, yeah.

I think Gohan's transformation was impressive and emotional scene and interesting psychologically, but it did not make him a better character. He is at his best in the Namek arc, where he really shows his intelligence.
Oh, I meant the manga. Wasn't that chapter written in the late '80s?

I think Gohan was at his best in the Namek arc too. I just feel the Cell Games version of him could have served as a spring board for a much better character than what he was developed into in the Buu saga. Mind you, I like that version of Gohan too, sans the lack of training tidbit. Also, SSJ2 Gohan was so f'ing cool in design and, yeah, sadism. He was like a mini, "good" Broly.
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Re: Chances of Gohan Being Awesome in 'Super'

Post by ekrolo2 » Sat Oct 31, 2015 1:53 pm

Beat downs are fun for side fights that aren't of overall big relevance but if you're big end fight is a one sided fight completely in favor of the good guy, its boring. The reason why Cell vs Goku is fun is because Goku is clearly outclassed and trying his best to beat Cell. If Cell powered up to his max and gave Gohan a more even battle, it would've been a LOT better of a fight.
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Re: Chances of Gohan Being Awesome in 'Super'

Post by fadeddreams5 » Sat Oct 31, 2015 2:00 pm

ekrolo2 wrote:Beat downs are fun for side fights that aren't of overall big relevance but if you're big end fight is a one sided fight completely in favor of the good guy, its boring. The reason why Cell vs Goku is fun is because Goku is clearly outclassed and trying his best to beat Cell. If Cell powered up to his max and gave Gohan a more even battle, it would've been a LOT better of a fight.
Seeing him in so much pain and regurgitating 18 was incredible. I guess I would have liked Super Perfect Cell and SSJ2 Gohan to engage in a fight before the beam struggle, but that alone compensated, imo.
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Re: Chances of Gohan Being Awesome in 'Super'

Post by SingleFringe&Sparks » Sat Oct 31, 2015 4:54 pm

Doctor. wrote:Toriyama purposefully made SS2 Gohan the worst version of the character. So it completely baffles me how one can say they like him.
Most people detrimentally overlook his real characterization. They like him because they just see him being that OP character badass by what he they see him do instead of why he does it. Its the same syndrome people have when they sympathize with Vegeta even though Vegeta was the sociopath.Him wanting Cell to suffer shouldn't put him in the right, it should shock the viewer that this came out of sweet, pacifistic Gohan's mouth.

If anything Ultimate Gohan is the worst version of him because, it was him reliving the exact same mistakes all over from Cell with Super Buu and Buu flawlessly exploited it. There is nothing Toryiama can do to make Gohan into something his fans want without rewriting the character out of character.
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Re: Chances of Gohan Being Awesome in 'Super'

Post by Doctor. » Sat Oct 31, 2015 4:58 pm

SingleFringe&Sparks wrote:If anything Ultimate Gohan is the worst version of him because, it was him reliving the exact same mistakes all over from Cell with Super Buu and Buu flawlessly exploited it. There is nothing Toryiama can do to make Gohan into something his fans want without rewriting the character out of character.
I disagree. Ultimate Gohan tried to destroy Super Boo immediately, it was character development: him taking on the mantle of being the hero of the Earth. It was the anime that added extra fluff that made the character look cocky like his Cell Games self.

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Re: Chances of Gohan Being Awesome in 'Super'

Post by DBZAOTA482 » Sat Oct 31, 2015 5:04 pm

Doctor. wrote:
SingleFringe&Sparks wrote:If anything Ultimate Gohan is the worst version of him because, it was him reliving the exact same mistakes all over from Cell with Super Buu and Buu flawlessly exploited it. There is nothing Toryiama can do to make Gohan into something his fans want without rewriting the character out of character.
I disagree. Ultimate Gohan tried to destroy Super Boo immediately, it was character development: him taking on the mantle of being the hero of the Earth. It was the anime that added extra fluff that made the character look cocky like his Cell Games self.
Cell Games Gohan was more arrogant than cocky. He purposely prolonged the fight with Cell to torture him for the evil shit he did before him.
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DBZGTKOSDH wrote:... Haven't we already gotten these in GT? Goku dies, the DBs go away, and the Namekian DBs most likely won't be used again because of the Evil Dragons.
Goku didn't die in GT. The show sucked him off so much, it was impossible to keep him in the world of the living, so he ascended beyond mortality.
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Re: Chances of Gohan Being Awesome in 'Super'

Post by NitroEX » Sat Oct 31, 2015 5:35 pm

Doctor. wrote:
fadeddreams5 wrote:His power took control of his judgement.
That's why he's irresponsible.
So what's the alternative that would satisfy you? A 9 year old boy who's perfect in every way and has no flaws? The fact that you're overly scrutinising his behaviour like this tells me that you've kind of missed the point of his character. Gohan is part human and has human flaws, we often see his emotions getting the better of him and this is what makes him vulnerable and relatable. We can all relate to a character that occasionally fucks up every once in awhile. Those types of heroes often create the best stories, impervious Supermen not so much.

Btw Gohan did try being responsible. He kept the lid on his power because he knew something bad might happen if he unleashed it. Something bad did happen as a result which proves he was right all along. He blamed himself for Goku's death afterwards but the truth is he had no choice in the matter. Goku wrongfully gave Cell a senzu bean, making Gohan's fight as tough as possible. Cell and Goku both forced the power out of him one way or another and they both paid the price for playing with fire.
Doctor. wrote:An innocent kid who gains a huge amount of power and lets it get to his head, how often do you see that? Then he starts killing the enemy with no difficulty at all, that's extremely boring.
But he didn't kill the enemy without any difficulty. Cell outsmarted him and hit him where it really hurt by Killing his father. This gave Cell a huge advantage over a child who'd been emotionally crushed after losing his dad. That plus the fact that his arm was crippled completely demoralised him to the point of almost giving up. The whole point of that fall from grace was to have him earn the victory (as well as adding tension to the final beam struggle). If he had been in control of the fight the entire time and won easily then that would have been boring.
Doctor. wrote:
fadeddreams5 wrote:When his father died, he snapped into reality. When he lost an arm, he temporarily lost resolve.
His father died BECAUSE of him, and yet, instead of taking responsibility for his actions and fighting until the end, he just gives up. That's extremely cowardly, especially after he had no problem killing the Cell Jrs a moment before. What, beating others is fun but when the tables are turned he can't take the heat?
If Gohan was a coward he would have fled from the battlefield as soon as Cell came back and killed Trunks. He stayed and temporarily accepted death because the situation seemed hopeless to him and understandably so. His father who he'd always looked up to as his saviour was dead, Cell was back with a huge power boost and had just taken out Trunks and Vegeta (the only one's who could help him). All of this in combination with the feeling of guilt for causing his father's death and his arm being broken was obviously too much for a nine year old to bear. I think the way he reacted was very realistic and true to life, most adults would crumble after that kind of trauma.

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Re: Chances of Gohan Being Awesome in 'Super'

Post by fadeddreams5 » Sat Oct 31, 2015 5:42 pm

If he had been in control of the fight the entire time and won easily then that would have been boring
I agree with this.
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Re: Chances of Gohan Being Awesome in 'Super'

Post by Doctor. » Sat Oct 31, 2015 5:44 pm

NitroEX wrote:So what's the alternative that would satisfy you? A 9 year old boy who's perfect in every way and has no flaws? The fact that you're overly scrutinising his behaviour like this tells me that you've kind of missed the point of his character. Gohan is part human and has human flaws, we often see his emotions getting the better of him and this is what makes him vulnerable and relatable. We can all relate to a character that occasionally fucks up every once in awhile. Those types of heroes often create the best stories, impervious Supermen not so much.
I think you missed the point I was trying to make. Him having flaws makes him a more well-written character, but it doesn't make him any likable. Especially not in the circumstances he was in, that's why I said I was baffled that anyone could like or defend his actions in the Cell Games; Toriyama's intention with (SS2) Gohan was to make him unlikable. As to what he could have done, I point towards Super Saiyan Goku, whom despite his rage still managed to recover his personality after a while.
NitroEX wrote:But he didn't kill the enemy without any difficulty. Cell outsmarted him and hit him where it really hurt by Killing his father. This gave Cell a huge advantage over a child who'd been emotionally crushed after losing his dad. That plus the fact that his arm was crippled completely demoralised him to the point of almost giving up. The whole point of that fall from grace was to have him earn the victory (as well as adding tension to the final beam struggle). If he had been in control of the fight the entire time and won easily then that would have been boring.
This I agree with, but it doesn't make anything before that point any less boring. OR Gohan's demeanor at that point any more interesting.
NitroEX wrote:If Gohan was a coward he would have fled from the battlefield as soon as Cell came back and killed Trunks. He stayed and temporarily accepted death because the situation seemed hopeless to him and understandably so. His father who he'd always looked up to as his saviour was dead, Cell was back with a huge power boost and had just taken out Trunks and Vegeta (the only one's who could help him). All of this in combination with the feeling of guilt for causing his father's death and his arm being broken was obviously too much for a nine year old to bear. I think the way he reacted was very realistic and true to life, most adults would crumble after that kind of trauma.
Gohan didn't run because he still had the upperhand. The moment he loses most of his power, he avoids responsibility and gives up instantly. That's cowardly. Is it realistic? Sure. Would any of us react the same? Probably. Is what he did any less cowardly? No. Again, I'm not arguing as to whether or not he's badly written, I'm arguing that he's completely unlikable at that point in the series.

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Re: Chances of Gohan Being Awesome in 'Super'

Post by fadeddreams5 » Sat Oct 31, 2015 6:43 pm

Gotenks = unlikable. That character actually is unbelievably cocky and doesn't get the job done as a result.

SSJ2 Gohan is not unlikable. He follows the "eye for an eye" notion that a lot of people find appealing. Fuck with my friends? Well, face the consequences. People find that badass. Cell had it coming. But besides that, Gohan was taken over by an anger amplified by his transformation that he couldn't contain until his dad died. He knew this was going to happen, and he warned Cell.
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Re: Chances of Gohan Being Awesome in 'Super'

Post by DragonHermit » Sat Oct 31, 2015 9:17 pm

If anything Videl has been completely ruined as a character. Remember when Popovich was beating the shit out of her but she wouldn't give up? Do the writers even remember that's who she was?

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Re: Chances of Gohan Being Awesome in 'Super'

Post by Lord Beerus » Sat Oct 31, 2015 9:23 pm

DragonHermit wrote:If anything Videl has been completely ruined as a character. Remember when Popovich was beating the shit out of her but she wouldn't give up? Do the writers even remember that's who she was?
I don't know if you realize this, but when any woman becomes a mother, there priorities change drastically.

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Re: Chances of Gohan Being Awesome in 'Super'

Post by fadeddreams5 » Sat Oct 31, 2015 9:50 pm

Lord Beerus wrote:
DragonHermit wrote:If anything Videl has been completely ruined as a character. Remember when Popovich was beating the shit out of her but she wouldn't give up? Do the writers even remember that's who she was?
I don't know if you realize this, but when any woman becomes a mother, there priorities change drastically.
Their priorities change, but they don't turn into radically different people either.
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Re: Chances of Gohan Being Awesome in 'Super'

Post by Hero » Sat Oct 31, 2015 11:33 pm

fadeddreams5 wrote:
Lord Beerus wrote:
DragonHermit wrote:If anything Videl has been completely ruined as a character. Remember when Popovich was beating the shit out of her but she wouldn't give up? Do the writers even remember that's who she was?
I don't know if you realize this, but when any woman becomes a mother, there priorities change drastically.
Their priorities change, but they don't turn into radically different people either.
One thing that I hate when people say is stuff where they rationalize a character's actions or decisions using the real world. A.K.A. "Gohan is living the life 'cuz he has a hot wife and is a scholar" or "Of course Videl is different now, she's a mom!"

But here's the thing: Dragon Ball isn't the real world.

If it was then Goku would be a selfish bum who would be rightfully called a horrible father and wife, a slacker when it comes to supporting anyone other than himself and an asshole for letting villains live for his own amusement.

There's no reason why Videl can't be a kickass mother who is stubborn. In fact, I'd say it would be in character for her to want to fight while pregnant only to have Gohan talk her out of it. At least with Vegeta we had multiple arcs to watch him mellow out.

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Re: Chances of Gohan Being Awesome in 'Super'

Post by NitroEX » Sun Nov 01, 2015 8:58 am

Doctor. wrote:I think you missed the point I was trying to make. Him having flaws makes him a more well-written character, but it doesn't make him any likable. Especially not in the circumstances he was in, that's why I said I was baffled that anyone could like or defend his actions in the Cell Games; Toriyama's intention with (SS2) Gohan was to make him unlikable. As to what he could have done, I point towards Super Saiyan Goku, whom despite his rage still managed to recover his personality after a while.
I don't think Toriyama intended for Gohan to be unlikable but moving on... Goku's situation on Namek was not the same as Gohan's during the Cell games, the two aren't comparable mainly due to the battlefield on Namek being a ticking time bomb. Goku was practically suicidal throughout the whole thing and insisted on being merciful whenever possible to a villain who'd just killed his best friend. That's pretty unlikable in my opinion. Also for what it's worth, Goku's SSJ power on Namek is dwarfed by Gohan's SS2 so I'd wager to say it was easier for a grown man with more experience in Ki to handle far less power than a child with far more.

Gohan did show mercy before transforming to SS2 but after transforming and letting the power take full control of him he immediately became more sadistic. I think this makes sense in the context of the story up until that point since his previous anger bursts clouded his judgement and in some cases, even left him unaware of what he just did. It seems naive to me to assume he should magically be able to control something he previously couldn't. The training he had with Goku certainly helped which I think allowed him to maintain some level of control as a SS2 but it wasn't as if he mastered the form (or his hidden power) whilst in the chamber and knew how to control it.
Doctor. wrote: Gohan didn't run because he still had the upperhand. The moment he loses most of his power, he avoids responsibility and gives up instantly. That's cowardly. Is it realistic? Sure. Would any of us react the same? Probably. Is what he did any less cowardly? No. Again, I'm not arguing as to whether or not he's badly written, I'm arguing that he's completely unlikable at that point in the series.
Unlikable to you perhaps but when it comes to him being "cowardly" I still feel like that's just a result of you ignoring all the other circumstances of his situation. If you're referring to the beam struggle then it clearly wasn't just about having less power that discouraged him. It was the culmination of everything else that happened before that wore him down mentally. If it wasn't for Vegeta's interference then it's debatable if he could have even won that struggle in the shape he was in.

As for likability.. watching it for the first time I didn't find him unlikable at all. I was too invested in him beating Cell to worry about if I liked his personality and demeanor in comparison to Goku's or not. As a kid my thoughts weren't "OMG, Gohan's such a little bitch, MAN UP PLEASE!" and those aren't my thoughts watching it now. Instead I just identified with a kid that was under a lot of pressure to succeed. As an adult I can also relate to the feelings of grief and depression after losing a loved one so to me I don't find much about him to dislike. His bad decisions are mostly forgivable to me due to his age. He wasn't really prepared for a clusterfuck like the Cell games but that's part of what makes the story work so well, the whole thing is one big gamble.

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Re: Chances of Gohan Being Awesome in 'Super'

Post by dbzfan7 » Sun Nov 01, 2015 9:15 am

Funny how things don't seem to change. In Dragon Ball Heroes Gohan yet again gets carried away as a SSJ4, and Goku and Vegeta have to stop him from going too far and being a danger to the earth. Oddly enough his response felt so...Goku like, with a hint of Gohan politeness. That'd make a pretty compelling and thought provoking reason as to why he wouldn't want to seek out becoming powerful. His saiyan instinct might make him a psycho again like it did to him as a SSJ2 as saiyan forms tend to really mess with his head. Oozaru makes every saiyan sans the elite lose reason. SSJ made Goku lose his reason. SSJ2 Gohan made him a psycho. I think Goku may have said SSJ4 had some effect on him. The potential unleash kinda changed Gohan personally, but without making him lose his reason.
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Re: Chances of Gohan Being Awesome in 'Super'

Post by goku the krump dancer » Sun Nov 01, 2015 10:11 am

People are saying Videl is ruined because she's nicer now? I figure her little tough girl persona was bit of gimmick cuz she probably was tryna keep the jerks away.. remember how her face lit up when Gohan mentioned her having short hair?

People also gotta remember that she's human, so how far did y'all expect her fighting to actually go? Yeah she was a pretty good bare bones martial artist, but Gohan only taught her how to control her ki enough to fly.

I feel like everything that happened to her earlier in the Boo arc including Spopovich's beating and learning that Gohan beat Cell helped humble her in way. Not saying that she was super cocky but she definitely had a bit of a chip on her shoulder because she kinda knew her dads claim to fame was bogus.

we never learn what her true goals in life were/are and fighting crimes turned from something she probably felt she had to do because of who her dad is to a side hobby once she got to know Gohan and his family.

As mother's Chi Chi is the only one who completely gave up fighting for the house wife life, which is understandable when u realize who her husband is and even then she trained Goten behind closed doors. Videl, 18 and Bulma all still don't mind getting their hands dirty when shit REALLY hits the fan, Bulma with the trinkets and Videl and 18 with fighting. Videl didn't help fight Beerus mostly cus she didn't want to risk losing the baby most likely.

All this being said though, in the end I feel we don't know enough about Videl to say she was ruined and as we get more material especially with Super we just might get more bits and pieces of her personality like with her meaning mugging her dad back into the battle field.

I know this is a Gohan thread but hey he's "useless" anyway. :P

Nah but for those who hate when he's compared to the lives of people in the real world I feel like that's an appropriate comparison seeing as though for Dragon Ball, Gohan is definitely one of the more realistic characters. Everyone else is a bit exaggerated in some way, shape or form.
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Re: Chances of Gohan Being Awesome in 'Super'

Post by Tsufuru » Sun Nov 01, 2015 11:55 am

i dont know whats worse: ppl not accepting that gohan is now living a normal human life which is what the author wants or them actualy ignoring that gohan was basicly forced to train in the past.
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Re: Chances of Gohan Being Awesome in 'Super'

Post by Soppa Saia People » Sun Nov 01, 2015 12:00 pm

I think a lot of you are overreacting. Gohan isn't the next Lunch, he's the next Piccolo (what do you think he was training him for :wink: ).
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