Will/should Dragon Ball Super evolve?

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: Will/should Dragon Ball Super evolve?

Post by Lord Beerus » Wed Nov 04, 2015 7:45 pm

I don't think the shortcomings of GT should toss aside any idea of stories taking place post EOZ. If Toriyama can come with good ideas and concepts for stories that place after EOZ, then you can damn sure bet Super is gonna got that direction.

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Re: Will/should Dragon Ball Super evolve?

Post by Hellspawn28 » Wed Nov 04, 2015 8:03 pm

LSSJGODSSJ4Gogeta wrote:Having 2 stories post Z isn't a big deal,its 2 different writers and canons.
Agree. I doubt Toei cares about having another story set after DBZ. As long if it sells well and people like it then that's what matters the most.
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Re: Will/should Dragon Ball Super evolve?

Post by fadeddreams5 » Wed Nov 04, 2015 8:22 pm

irreality wrote:I'm not sure how this relates in any way to GT (or movies for that matter)… Why would Toei need to release a timeline? We know where all these stories fit together chronologically -- they are just contradictory if they happen in the same universe as the main story. (and some movies I think are plain impossible).
That's exactly why. Right now, there are a lot of things Super has that contradict GT. People have stated that Toei may be scared to make any post-EoZ stories because that content may "replace" GT, so why not just release a timeline that confirms GT and Super take place in alternative time periods or universes (i.e. branches them off, similarly to what Nintendo did with the Zelda timeline)? It's a simple solution without having to call their work "non-canon." It also makes it possible to cross the two over without any conflicts.

I like the thought of multiple alternate timelines, rather than just saying, "Oh, that's non-canon. Never happened. Nope."
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Re: Will/should Dragon Ball Super evolve?

Post by Hellspawn28 » Wed Nov 04, 2015 8:34 pm

People seem to forget that GT was 18-19 years ago. GT has been not relevant since the late 90's and most people watching Super in Japan right now where probably not born when it was airing. Why would they worry about replacing something that has been a major thing in over a decade? They could do a sequel after DBZ without a promble whatsoever. At this rate, I doubt they care about GT as long if the new show or movies make money and people like it.
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Re: Will/should Dragon Ball Super evolve?

Post by irreality » Wed Nov 04, 2015 9:35 pm

fadeddreams5 wrote:
irreality wrote:I'm not sure how this relates in any way to GT (or movies for that matter)… Why would Toei need to release a timeline? We know where all these stories fit together chronologically -- they are just contradictory if they happen in the same universe as the main story. (and some movies I think are plain impossible).
That's exactly why. Right now, there are a lot of things Super has that contradict GT. People have stated that Toei may be scared to make any post-EoZ stories because that content may "replace" GT, so why not just release a timeline that confirms GT and Super take place in alternative time periods or universes (i.e. branches them off, similarly to what Nintendo did with the Zelda timeline)? It's a simple solution without having to call their work "non-canon." It also makes it possible to cross the two over without any conflicts.

I like the thought of multiple alternate timelines, rather than just saying, "Oh, that's non-canon. Never happened. Nope."
That isn't a timeline you want then -- that is simply a statement of canonicity or not. There is no time travel or weird timelines like in Ocarina of Time to make sense of GT so what is Toei placing them in a timeline going to do? We know where in time GT falls. Right now it is not outright contradicted by anything in Super (having both SSG and SS4 is a bit weird, but not an outright problem). It might be outright contradicted, it might not. I'm not sure what else there is for Toei to say right now without spoilers or writing themselves into a corner they might not want to commit themselves to right now.

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Re: Will/should Dragon Ball Super evolve?

Post by Hellspawn28 » Wed Nov 04, 2015 9:48 pm

GT was not on the anniversary website timeline while the Garlic Jr saga and After Life Tenkachi Budokai where listed under star moments.
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Re: Will/should Dragon Ball Super evolve?

Post by fadeddreams5 » Wed Nov 04, 2015 10:40 pm

irreality wrote:
fadeddreams5 wrote:
irreality wrote:I'm not sure how this relates in any way to GT (or movies for that matter)… Why would Toei need to release a timeline? We know where all these stories fit together chronologically -- they are just contradictory if they happen in the same universe as the main story. (and some movies I think are plain impossible).
That's exactly why. Right now, there are a lot of things Super has that contradict GT. People have stated that Toei may be scared to make any post-EoZ stories because that content may "replace" GT, so why not just release a timeline that confirms GT and Super take place in alternative time periods or universes (i.e. branches them off, similarly to what Nintendo did with the Zelda timeline)? It's a simple solution without having to call their work "non-canon." It also makes it possible to cross the two over without any conflicts.

I like the thought of multiple alternate timelines, rather than just saying, "Oh, that's non-canon. Never happened. Nope."
That isn't a timeline you want then -- that is simply a statement of canonicity or not. There is no time travel or weird timelines like in Ocarina of Time to make sense of GT so what is Toei placing them in a timeline going to do? We know where in time GT falls. Right now it is not outright contradicted by anything in Super (having both SSG and SS4 is a bit weird, but not an outright problem). It might be outright contradicted, it might not. I'm not sure what else there is for Toei to say right now without spoilers or writing themselves into a corner they might not want to commit themselves to right now.
Golden Frieza is not present in GT. Kibito Kai is present. And yeah, SSGSS doesn't exist either. I don't see them "losing" those powers; makes little sense.

They can branch out the timeline in any way to have GT fit without it being declared non-canon. For example, maybe Beerus never visited Earth, or Goku failed to absorb the god powers in that timeline.
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Re: Will/should Dragon Ball Super evolve?

Post by Hellspawn28 » Wed Nov 04, 2015 11:48 pm

As I mention before, GT has been not relevant since the late 90's. They can just write GT off as a Toei sequel and another post-Z sequel can be view as a sequel from Toriyama. They can easily go beyond DBZ if they really want too as long if it sells well.
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Re: Will/should Dragon Ball Super evolve?

Post by fadeddreams5 » Thu Nov 05, 2015 12:05 am

Hellspawn28 wrote:As I mention before, GT has been not relevant since the late 90's. They can just write GT off as a Toei sequel and another post-Z sequel can be view as a sequel from Toriyama. They can easily go beyond DBZ if they really want too as long if it sells well.
I wouldn't call it irrelevant. I mean, it's actually promoted more than Super in that Heroes game. Gohan just got a SSJ4 form. Not to mention, Super 17 with 18 absorbed. O.o
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Re: Will/should Dragon Ball Super evolve?

Post by Hellspawn28 » Thu Nov 05, 2015 12:28 am

Outside the video games, GT hasn't been a major thing in a long time. I doubt most of the people watching Super on TV in Japan have seen GT or was born when it was airing. Also Super is brand new, so it's not going to be promoted a lot for a while. Not to mention SSj4 is a popular design despite GT being dislike by most people. Even some fans who dislike GT admit that SSj4 does look coo.
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Re: Will/should Dragon Ball Super evolve?

Post by irreality » Thu Nov 05, 2015 2:23 am

fadeddreams5 wrote: They can branch out the timeline in any way to have GT fit without it being declared non-canon. For example, maybe Beerus never visited Earth, or Goku failed to absorb the god powers in that timeline.
On what grounds do they "branch the timeline"? There was no time travel to justify it, and quite frankly, time travel doesn't suddenly change the biology of Saiyans to make completely different transformations possible in one version vs. the other.

They might as well make no statements on canonicity and have fans just choose their own adventure -- either use crazy fridge logic to resolve plotholes or decide GT was all a dream or decide it was just a parallel universe with different rules.

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Re: Will/should Dragon Ball Super evolve?

Post by Araki » Thu Nov 05, 2015 2:31 am

fadeddreams5 wrote:
Hellspawn28 wrote:As I mention before, GT has been not relevant since the late 90's. They can just write GT off as a Toei sequel and another post-Z sequel can be view as a sequel from Toriyama. They can easily go beyond DBZ if they really want too as long if it sells well.
I wouldn't call it irrelevant. I mean, it's actually promoted more than Super in that Heroes game. Gohan just got a SSJ4 form. Not to mention, Super 17 with 18 absorbed. O.o
Of course there's more GT stuff than Super in Heroes at this point, what new characters or transformations Super introduced to be added in Heroes yet? None. They've only started using SSJ4 and GT stuff in games because they're scraping the barrel. GT merchandise is virtually non-existent - there are a couple figures and other minor releases incoming, but pay attention to how they always ignore the "GT" logo. It's like they want people to forget SSJ4 and other things belong in GT.

Anyway, wait for more Champa/Vados and the U6 arc and obviously Heroes will be heavily affected by Super.

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Re: Will/should Dragon Ball Super evolve?

Post by Neon Z » Thu Nov 05, 2015 11:16 am

fadeddreams5 wrote:
Hellspawn28 wrote:As I mention before, GT has been not relevant since the late 90's. They can just write GT off as a Toei sequel and another post-Z sequel can be view as a sequel from Toriyama. They can easily go beyond DBZ if they really want too as long if it sells well.
I wouldn't call it irrelevant. I mean, it's actually promoted more than Super in that Heroes game. Gohan just got a SSJ4 form. Not to mention, Super 17 with 18 absorbed. O.o
They can make up stuff for GT exactly because it's now untouched and won't be followed up. They likely hesitate to give characters new SSJ God or Blue forms for now because those still might happen in the actual show.
Chuquita wrote:I also think it's Goten and Trunks that prevent the EoZ jump.
If we go by Toriyama's own words, it's more about characters like Bulma and Kuririn looking too old there. And, really, if you look at the more recent material, I don't see anything throwing that into question. Goten and Trunks? The same Goten and Trunks that didn't appear in RoF at all and even in Super Goten has only gotten one or two lines per episode ever since the RoF set up stuff started, while Trunks completely disappeared? Whoever is handling the marketing is clearly interested in pushing Goten and Trunks, but that doesn't seem to be Toriyama's goal at all, and Toei nowadays seems to bow down to him.

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Re: Will/should Dragon Ball Super evolve?

Post by Mewzard » Thu Nov 05, 2015 1:49 pm

Baggie_Saiyan wrote:EoZ IMO isn't supposed to be touched. It is similar to the FMA:B ending where Ed and Al go on another adventure it ends the series where it began so to speak.

I feel Toriyama sorta intentionally wrote EoZ after a timeskip so incase he ever came back he has a lot of years to mess with and with no one transforming it means new transformations etc.

Also goin' past EoZ would mean GT would be gone for good. Toei don't want that, see recently announced SH figuarts and Udm figures.
I feel quite differently on this. I think Toriyama intentionally aged his cast to an age he felt uninterested in writing about and gave them designs he disliked all in an attempt to make it all the less likely he'd be tempted to come back to Dragon Ball for money, since he was probably completely burned out at the time. At the time, he probably never wanted to work on Dragon Ball again. But decades passing can change a person's views.

If he has issues with age or what not, the ten year gap's a good solution. Plenty of time to take advantage of some neat stories (and he could always move past Z's time later on if the mood strikes him).

I think once the Universe 6 stuff starts, that's when fans will be a little more excited for Super. Who knows what will come out after that...
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Re: Will/should Dragon Ball Super evolve?

Post by fadeddreams5 » Thu Nov 05, 2015 2:41 pm

irreality wrote:
fadeddreams5 wrote: They can branch out the timeline in any way to have GT fit without it being declared non-canon. For example, maybe Beerus never visited Earth, or Goku failed to absorb the god powers in that timeline.
On what grounds do they "branch the timeline"? There was no time travel to justify it, and quite frankly, time travel doesn't suddenly change the biology of Saiyans to make completely different transformations possible in one version vs. the other.

They might as well make no statements on canonicity and have fans just choose their own adventure -- either use crazy fridge logic to resolve plotholes or decide GT was all a dream or decide it was just a parallel universe with different rules.
I was going by DBZ alternate timeline logic (so basically, alternate universes). Weren't there like three or more in the Cell saga where things happened differently? So it's as easy as saying, "in this timeline, Beerus never learned about the SSJG or Goku never absorbed it." That's where it branches off. It's the same sort of concept that DB Multiverse manga uses, as well as DC comics, I think. =P

I'm personally interested in an official canon.
Neon Z wrote:They can make up stuff for GT exactly because it's now untouched and won't be followed up. They likely hesitate to give characters new SSJ God or Blue forms for now because those still might happen in the actual show.
That is true.
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Re: Will/should Dragon Ball Super evolve?

Post by Hellspawn28 » Thu Nov 05, 2015 3:18 pm

Why not have alternate continuities? Other series do all of the time, why not Dragon Ball. It can be as simple as this:

Manga:
DB-
Jaco
Dragon Ball manga volumes 1-42
2008 Jump Special
BOG
ROF
Champa/U6 saga (Toriyama seems to have a big apart on writing it)

Anime:
Bardock Father of Goku
DB TV series
Dead Zone
DBZ TV series
DBZ Movie 9
DBZ Movie 13
GT

Super:

DB- (Since Jaco is showing up)
DB TV series
Kai
Super

Online:

Bardock: Father of Goku
Dragon Ball manga volumes 1-42
Dragon Ball Online

DB Movies 1-4 and DBZ Movies 1-13 can be view as alternate timelines to those continuities. Toriyama already views DBZ Movies 1-13 as stories set in different dimensions.
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Re: Will/should Dragon Ball Super evolve?

Post by LSSJGODSSJ4Gogeta » Thu Nov 05, 2015 3:19 pm

Yeah a official canon by Toei or toriyama,better yet both teamed up with be perfect. Toei says what's anime canon, Toriyama says what he considers part of the manga story,because beerus has way to many adaptions of his trip to earth to know for sure.

One universe with beerus,one without and then a third group called what if stories like fusion reborn.
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Re: Will/should Dragon Ball Super evolve?

Post by Hellspawn28 » Thu Nov 05, 2015 3:30 pm

Or they could pull off a Superman Returns and Universal Solider: Regeneration, just be like "It never happen!". Those two write off anything sucked from the last installment in the series (Superman 3 & Superman 4 and Universal Soldier: The Return).
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Re: Will/should Dragon Ball Super evolve?

Post by irreality » Thu Nov 05, 2015 5:58 pm

fadeddreams5 wrote:Weren't there like three or more in the Cell saga where things happened differently?
There was time travel involved, with an actual time machine and in ways that were directly relevant to the plot. Which is what I just said is what is required to make sense of the notion of alternate timelines, either in DBZ or in Zelda.

I'm not that interested on Toei's decision to declare something canon or not if it adds no new useful information, and I am against them making a canonical declaration by adding non-story details like unexplained time travel or unrelated alternate universes -- that seems even more ass-pully and annoying than them just not saying anything.

If we see Time Patrol Trunks stopping Beerus from arriving on Earth in a later episode of Super, then sure, timeline away! Until then, no thank you.

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Re: Will/should Dragon Ball Super evolve?

Post by fadeddreams5 » Thu Nov 05, 2015 6:26 pm

Aren't Cell and Trunks' timelines exactly the same, only different things happen in each one? One has Trunks travel back in time, become a USSJ, and kill the androids of his timeline. In the other, Trunks learns about some remote control that manages to deactivate the androids in his timeline, but is murdered before he can go back in time to share it.

I vaguely remember the logic as to why they're different, so I may be wrong, but that timeline bridge right there can result in infinitely many alternate universes/time periods. One of which can fit the events of GT.
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