Will/should Dragon Ball Super evolve?

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Lord Beerus
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Re: Will/should Dragon Ball Super evolve?

Post by Lord Beerus » Fri Dec 04, 2015 7:14 pm

Hellspawn28 wrote:
DBZ_Lee wrote:
Also, going past EoZ would pretty much retcon GT in a way, even though it is only a "side story" (to quote Toriyama Sensei when asked about it) the appeal of the scenario was that it took place 5 years after DBZ, and this made it somewhat believable in a way to many fans who do still view it as canon, in spite of Toriyama Sensei's comments.
So, Super going into that timeline would not only cause a mess story wise, but could hurt financially - GT is a product that Toei still market to sell, not just as a series, but also merchandise wise and with Dragon Ball Heroes, which features a huge amount of GT content, to retcon it, could harm how it is perceived.
I don't get why people say that? You can still do a sequel that can retcon GT set after DBZ and still make GT stuff. I mean Star Wars is finally doing a movie set after Return of the Jedi despite the fact that Star Wars had sequels written after Return of Jedi long before Force Awakens. Star Wars: The New Jedi Order - Vector Prime was written as a sequel to Return of Jedi like 15-16 years before Force Awakens and yet the upcoming Star Wars sequels are going to ignore and retcon every EU sequel out there. If they do have a Toriyama sequel to DBZ, GT is still here to stay. It's not like it's going to be erase off the face of the Earth.
At the end of the day though, Bandai and Toei like money a lot, and Dragon Ball Super is ultimately a merchandise driven show. So Bandai will have quite big say in the direction the show will go. And considering that the inclusion of elements from GT is one of the driving forces that make Dragon Ball Heroes so popular and profitable in Japan, I think the last thing that Toei or Bandai would want is for another show to step on its toes. I mean, I would love for Super to go beyond GT, but looking at from a financial perspective, I can understand why Toei and Bandai would not want to do it. But hey, it could all change if Dragon Ball Super related merchandise sells like crazy by next year, then all bets are off.

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Re: Will/should Dragon Ball Super evolve?

Post by Hellspawn28 » Fri Dec 04, 2015 7:56 pm

You can still have GT characters if you make a sequel set after DBZ that ignores GT. Just have GT be a official alternate universe sequel. It works for Tenchi Muyo since the Tenchi series has so many shows and movies set in different worlds and timelines. You can still make merchandise of SSj4 while having SSjGSSjGSSJG3.
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Re: Will/should Dragon Ball Super evolve?

Post by Basaku » Sun Dec 13, 2015 12:24 am

Lord Beerus wrote: At the end of the day though, Bandai and Toei like money a lot, and Dragon Ball Super is ultimately a merchandise driven show. So Bandai will have quite big say in the direction the show will go. And considering that the inclusion of elements from GT is one of the driving forces that make Dragon Ball Heroes so popular and profitable in Japan, I think the last thing that Toei or Bandai would want is for another show to step on its toes. I mean, I would love for Super to go beyond GT, but looking at from a financial perspective, I can understand why Toei and Bandai would not want to do it. But hey, it could all change if Dragon Ball Super related merchandise sells like crazy by next year, then all bets are off.
DB Heroes is a proof that kids can be duped with any kind of collectible card marketing hook that regularly delivers new stuff. They have nonsense fusions, bottom-of-the-barrel 4th background characters, new transformations and power-ups that have long eclipsed the worst AF fanart from the 90s and everything else.

There's only a handful of GT stuff stuff that would be a "loss" in case of complete retcon/decanonisation and frankly, SSJ4 could easily be reincluded in new canon. Also, GT is as old as most of DBZ. Kai wasn't a huge boost to merch sales because it was old and Toei finally realized old stuff doesn't sell the same forever, yet GT somehow is immune to age and drives up sales more than DBZ designs/villains/transformations? This doesn't add up. GT is good for additional inclusion and new updates in games to keep fans buying. But it's not irreplaceable and any new series in its place would almost instantly make up for its "loss" in official continuity

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Re: Will/should Dragon Ball Super evolve?

Post by Hellspawn28 » Sun Dec 13, 2015 12:51 am

I don't still see that they can't ignore GT if they want to make a true sequel to DBZ. I mean the Alien franchise is doing that by ignoring Alien 3 for Blomkamp's upcoming sequel. Toei and Shueisha could have GT be label as a alternate sequel to GT and no harm will be done.
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Re: Will/should Dragon Ball Super evolve?

Post by ZetaSword » Tue Dec 15, 2015 4:39 pm

I think that after the Universe 6/Champa Saga, they should time skip even further into the future to show an older Pan and Uub. The only change about the End of Z is that Pan is significantly older than before. She'd be nine or ten when Uub is introduced, depending on the month (originally she was four). They could have a new reason to bring in Uub. I remember someone on youtube, it was either Qaaman's Land or Rhymestyle (can't remember which) suggested that Beerus could be killed off and Uub could be the new God of Destruction. Like, maybe Whis instructs Goku to find Buu's reincarnation as the successor of Beerus. As for Pan, I hope that she is written much differently than she was in GT, and is also stronger and a more important character.

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Re: Will/should Dragon Ball Super evolve?

Post by wazuki011 » Sat Jan 02, 2016 2:55 pm

Question since I can't yet make Topics.

I've read multiple times Daizenshuu 2 states a quote along the lines. That Gohan can still use Super Saiyan after the ritual, but chose not to utilize it because he already surpassed Gotenks.

Does anyone know where this is stated, and the actual quote?

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Re: Will/should Dragon Ball Super evolve?

Post by LSSJGODSSJ4Gogeta » Sat Jan 02, 2016 6:26 pm

wazuki011 wrote:Question since I can't yet make Topics.

I've read multiple times Daizenshuu 2 states a quote along the lines. That Gohan can still use Super Saiyan after the ritual, but chose not to utilize it because he already surpassed Gotenks.

Does anyone know where this is stated, and the actual quote?

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Re: Will/should Dragon Ball Super evolve?

Post by Majin Buu » Sun Jan 03, 2016 1:12 pm

Hellspawn28 wrote:I don't still see that they can't ignore GT if they want to make a true sequel to DBZ. I mean the Alien franchise is doing that by ignoring Alien 3 for Blomkamp's upcoming sequel. Toei and Shueisha could have GT be label as a alternate sequel to GT and no harm will be done.
Maybe they just don't want GT to be alternate PERIOD. Labeling it an alternate universe would probably just give people an excuse to disregard it, and Toei doesn't want that to happen since, like other posters have said, they still make money off of GT in merchandising.

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Re: Will/should Dragon Ball Super evolve?

Post by Basaku » Sun Jan 03, 2016 1:39 pm

Majin Buu wrote:
Hellspawn28 wrote:I don't still see that they can't ignore GT if they want to make a true sequel to DBZ. I mean the Alien franchise is doing that by ignoring Alien 3 for Blomkamp's upcoming sequel. Toei and Shueisha could have GT be label as a alternate sequel to GT and no harm will be done.
Maybe they just don't want GT to be alternate PERIOD. Labeling it an alternate universe would probably just give people an excuse to disregard it, and Toei doesn't want that to happen since, like other posters have said, they still make money off of GT in merchandising.
New merch in its place would overcome any 'negative effect' of losing the remaining pretense of canonicity. Disney sure is racking up billions with new Star Wars Episode 7 merch that directly supplants previous post-ROTJ novels, games, comics etc.

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Re: Will/should Dragon Ball Super evolve?

Post by Majin Buu » Sun Jan 03, 2016 2:33 pm

Basaku wrote: Disney sure is racking up billions with new Star Wars Episode 7 merch that directly supplants previous post-ROTJ novels, games, comics etc.
It's probably a pride/ego thing as well. It's easy to label stuff non-canon when it's not your own work you're removing. Toei probably doesn't want to admit that GT, their own original series, was a failure; and labeling it as anything less than canon would be an implicit acknowledgement of that.

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Re: Will/should Dragon Ball Super evolve?

Post by Basaku » Sun Jan 03, 2016 2:45 pm

Majin Buu wrote:
It's probably a pride/ego thing as well. It's easy to label stuff non-canon when it's not your own work you're removing. Toei probably doesn't want to admit that GT, their own original series, was a failure; and labeling it as anything less than canon would be an implicit acknowledgement of that.
I've been thinking about this too, they've been rather adamant about not uttering the term 'non-canon/unofficial' despite new movies & Super contradicting GT at every step and everyone recognizing they can't work in the same continuity anymore. But when/if the time comes that Toriyama writes a story treatement for a new series that supplants GT directly I think they will roll with it, won't really have much choice. But until then I expect more vague and confusing statements on GT's status.

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Re: Will/should Dragon Ball Super evolve?

Post by Hellspawn28 » Sun Jan 03, 2016 4:58 pm

Majin Buu wrote:they still make money off of GT in merchandising.
You can still make merchandise out of GT even if it's no longer apart of the main series.
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Re: Will/should Dragon Ball Super evolve?

Post by Majin Buu » Sun Jan 03, 2016 5:26 pm

Hellspawn28 wrote:You can still make merchandise out of GT even if it's no longer apart of the main series.
You can make it, the question is would it still sell enough to justify it? If GT were as beloved as Dragon Ball and Z then maybe, but considering how disliked GT generally is, I think that would only give the many people that already dislike it an excuse to ignore it. And why would people want to buy merchandise of a series they don't like that isn't even part of the main series anymore? GT is in a weird situation where it's not popular in and of itself, but it still makes money for Toei; and I think that's because it's part of a series that as a whole is very popular, so just keeping it as part of that series allows the more popular stuff to rub off on it enough for it to still sell in some capacity. I don't think that would happen if GT were removed from the main series.

Also, this argument that GT needs to be rendered non-canon or an alternate universe seems to be based on the implicit assumption that the material replacing it would be better when there's no guarantee of that. I mean, look at how divisive Super has been thus far. Some people are already declaring GT to be the better show.

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Re: Will/should Dragon Ball Super evolve?

Post by Basaku » Sun Jan 03, 2016 5:43 pm

Majin Buu wrote:You can make it, the question is would it still sell enough to justify it? If GT were as beloved as Dragon Ball and Z then maybe, but considering how disliked GT generally is, I think that would only give the many people that already dislike it an excuse to ignore it. And why would people want to buy merchandise of a series they don't like that isn't even part of the main series anymore? GT is in a weird situation where it's not popular in and of itself, but it still makes money for Toei; and I think that's because it's part of a series that as a whole is very popular, so just keeping it as part of that series allows the more popular stuff to rub off on it enough for it to still sell in some capacity. I don't think that would happen if GT were removed from the main series.
Yes but frankly, so what? Super is actively producing brand new stuff to plaster on stickers, toilet paper and inside video games. And it sells way more than old GT merch. Kai was suppoused to be living proof that old designs and merch doesn't sell forever and Kai was as canon as it could be. So why are we acting as if GT is an evergreen merchandise cash cow unaffected by age that shouldn't be touched? Again, #1 merch success of GT that is SSJ4 design could easily be transplanted onto new canon. We got an army of new Saiyans from Universe 6 right there to use.
Majin Buu wrote:Also, this argument that GT needs to be rendered non-canon or an alternate universe seems to be based on the implicit assumption that the material replacing it would be better when there's no guarantee of that. I mean, look at how divisive Super has been thus far. Some people are already declaring GT to be the better show.
Part of the reason for sure, but there's also the fact that each new Gods-era episode or movie adds stuff that makes GT more and more incompatible. So why pretend its still canon when it can't be anymore?

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Re: Will/should Dragon Ball Super evolve?

Post by Majin Buu » Sun Jan 03, 2016 6:42 pm

Basaku wrote:Yes but frankly, so what? Super is actively producing brand new stuff to plaster on stickers, toilet paper and inside video games. And it sells way more than old GT merch. Kai was suppoused to be living proof that old designs and merch doesn't sell forever and Kai was as canon as it could be. So why are we acting as if GT is an evergreen merchandise cash cow unaffected by age that shouldn't be touched? Again, #1 merch success of GT that is SSJ4 design could easily be transplanted onto new canon. We got an army of new Saiyans from Universe 6 right there to use.
It's not evergreen, no one ever said it was. It simply still makes money the way it is though and so far Toei has no impetus to change it and might not even want to out of pride/ego.
Part of the reason for sure, but there's also the fact that each new Gods-era episode or movie adds stuff that makes GT more and more incompatible. So why pretend its still canon when it can't be anymore?
History has shown that Toei couldn't care less about contradictions, consistency, and all the other minutia nerds like us obsess over.

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Re: Will/should Dragon Ball Super evolve?

Post by Hellspawn28 » Sun Jan 03, 2016 10:01 pm

Majin Buu wrote: And why would people want to buy merchandise of a series they don't like that isn't even part of the main series anymore?
You are always going to have fans who like something even if it's bad or not canon to the series. I mean NECA has done figures for the AVP movies when Ridley Scott and Robert Rodriguez does not view them canon to the Alien and Predator series. Even the upcoming Alien 5 movie is likely going to ignore the last two movies when there is still merchandise for them. No matter what happens, GT is always for having fans and people who have nostalgia for it. GT can be listed as "AU" and people will still buy SSj4 Goku stuff.
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Re: Will/should Dragon Ball Super evolve?

Post by Majin Buu » Mon Jan 04, 2016 10:56 am

Hellspawn28 wrote:You are always going to have fans who like something even if it's bad or not canon to the series. I mean NECA has done figures for the AVP movies when Ridley Scott and Robert Rodriguez does not view them canon to the Alien and Predator series. Even the upcoming Alien 5 movie is likely going to ignore the last two movies when there is still merchandise for them. No matter what happens, GT is always for having fans and people who have nostalgia for it. GT can be listed as "AU" and people will still buy SSj4 Goku stuff.
These are different cultures we're talking about. We can't necessarily assume that a business in one culture is going to do things the same way as a business in another. Different mindsets, philosophies, practices, etc.

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Re: Will/should Dragon Ball Super evolve?

Post by wazuki011 » Mon Jan 11, 2016 7:49 pm

LSSJGODSSJ4Gogeta wrote:
wazuki011 wrote:Question since I can't yet make Topics.

I've read multiple times Daizenshuu 2 states a quote along the lines. That Gohan can still use Super Saiyan after the ritual, but chose not to utilize it because he already surpassed Gotenks.

Does anyone know where this is stated, and the actual quote?

Ask herms in the translations request. he's really really good on that. :)
/oops

Lol, I actually meant too post that there. somewhere along the lines the post ended up here >.>

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