Would anyone want to see shadow dragons return in super?

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Lord Frieza
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Re: Would anyone want to see shadow dragons return in super?

Post by Lord Frieza » Sat Nov 14, 2015 3:32 pm

irreality wrote:
Lord Freeza wrote:The dragon balls already have limitations imposed on them by their creators and they are scatter all over the world after every use. This was done to prevent them from being over used. Even without the concept of the shadow dragons the dragon balls were never meant to be used as a "get out of jail free card" for every situation by their original creators. Hell even without these limitations the dragon balls can bring misfortune. Just the mere mention of their power is enough to entice wicked beings to come to earth and namek.
I don't mind limitations: limitations are part of "magic a being magic a". All fairy universes have rules and consequences to encourage correct use and discourage incorrect use --all magic attracts both good and bad people. The Shadow dragons punish the very existence of the dragon balls and disproportionately discourage even the most correct use of the Dragon balls. That is my problem with them.

The rest of what you said is not relevant to the argument I'm making: I'm not denying whether there are better or worse enemies than the Shadow dragons (debatable). I'm arguing on a meta story-telling level: Shadow Dragons are a bad storytelling element if you like the Dragon Universe being a magical universe where that magic can be good. They are a story tellling element *designed* to wrap up the story in a neat little bow by removing Goku and removing the Dragon Balls from the story.
I see, sorry for the miss understanding. In that I can agree with you. While I like the dragons as a concept their execution is not very good. This has always been one of my problems with them. Magic in dragon ball is not the same as magic in say Warhammer. In Warhammer all magic comes from an inherently evil source, the forces of chaos, and because of this useing magic even for good is dangerous. In Dragon Ball on the other hand magic is no different then science, it is not inherently evil or good but a tool to be wielded. The dragon balls are are in a way and embodiment of that concept. They are not evil but anyone can use them. Its how they are used that matters.

I think I also understand what your saying; with that concept in mind something like the shadow dragons doesn't work because it goes against what the dragon ball are meant to represent and punishes you for using them at all. I agree with you on your point their. It is as you said "bad storytelling".

In a way Ultimate Shenron and the Black Star Dragon Balls are better concepts then the shadow dragons. You can have truly anything but that wish comes with a price.

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Re: Would anyone want to see shadow dragons return in super?

Post by emperior » Sat Nov 14, 2015 5:33 pm

It would be great if we got a show about Future Trunks' future, and he uses Black Star DBs to wish everyone back but then there would be a price.
Not sure if Black Star DBs can be used with Piccolo dead.
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Re: Would anyone want to see shadow dragons return in super?

Post by Hellspawn28 » Sat Nov 14, 2015 5:45 pm

No Kami = No Dragon Balls

The Black Star Dragon Balls and the Shadow Dragons don't exist in Trunks and Cell's timeline due to Kami being dead.
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Re: Would anyone want to see shadow dragons return in super?

Post by Kuririn Fan » Sun Nov 15, 2015 9:02 am

No. What happens in GT, stays in GT.

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Re: Would anyone want to see shadow dragons return in super?

Post by SingleFringe&Sparks » Thu Dec 03, 2015 1:23 am

The only compromise would be a new consequence for them being used against the laws of the dimension. Like intersecting universes should not be allowed or else havoc ensues, then a new villain would be born. I highly doubt they'll use anything from GT though, or else it would have been retconned a long time ago.
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Re: Would anyone want to see shadow dragons return in super?

Post by successoroffate » Thu Dec 03, 2015 11:47 am

SingleFringe&Sparks wrote:The only compromise would be a new consequence for them being used against the laws of the dimension. Like intersecting universes should not be allowed or else havoc ensues, then a new villain would be born. I highly doubt they'll use anything from GT though, or else it would have been retconned a long time ago.
I have a feeling that in Super, if the earth gets destroyed again (For whatever reason after Fukkatsu) and they were to use the Dragon Balls one more time to bring back the planet and everyone who died, then it would be the perfect opportunity to break the Dragon Balls once and for all for misuse.
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Re: Would anyone want to see shadow dragons return in super?

Post by EXBadguy » Thu Dec 03, 2015 12:21 pm

Like faddream, I also don't want the Shadow Dragons to appear in Super at all, as Super's too stupid for them to appear. Maybe if there's an EoZ sequel where it can retcon GT, I'll accept it.
irreality wrote: I don't mind limitations: limitations are part of "magic a being magic a". All fairy universes have rules and consequences to encourage correct use and discourage incorrect use --all magic attracts both good and bad people. The Shadow dragons punish the very existence of the dragon balls and disproportionately discourage even the most correct use of the Dragon balls. That is my problem with them.

The rest of what you said is not relevant to the argument I'm making: I'm not denying whether there are better or worse enemies than the Shadow dragons (debatable). I'm arguing on a meta story-telling level: Shadow Dragons are a bad storytelling element if you like the Dragon Universe being a magical universe where that magic can be good. They are a story tellling element *designed* to wrap up the story in a neat little bow by removing Goku and removing the Dragon Balls from the story.
I sorta understand that the Shadow Dragon idea kinda does ruin the spirit of the series, as the series is supposed to be light-hearted and nonsensical from jump. But still, death is still a part of life, and Goku really needs to learn that. Sure, it maybe bad storytelling to you when normality is forced on the heroes, but I don't think it's a bad thing. Nobody likes redundancies of storytelling where everyone gets wished back at the end of the saga. The Z warriors need to develop more logic, sense of loss, and independence. If you're afraid if the villain's gonna destroy the world, defend it! Call in an army or something. The dragon balls are like the government, as the heroes who constantly use the dragon balls are like the welfare recipients, the ones who aren't doing anything to get out of the situation they're in.

As much as I like the shadow dragons, I think they should've been more of the Neutral-Evil or Lawful Evil instead of the Chaotic-Evil side, cuz their roles are similar to the elder gods in Mortal Kombat, where if somebody breaks the rules, they punish them.
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