Would anyone want to see shadow dragons return in super?

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

Moderators: Kanzenshuu Staff, General Help

User avatar
yamu
Newbie
Posts: 28
Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2015 9:48 pm

Re: Would anyone want to see shadow dragons return in super?

Post by yamu » Tue Nov 10, 2015 6:31 pm

Some kind of fusion of all the dragons might be an interesting thing, not counting when Omega absorbed the Dragon Balls. Although I would hope the result would be more in tune with how Omega looked, rather than a wierd hybrid of all the looks. Either way I've always been a fan of the shadow dragons, even if I don't think they would work in Super.

User avatar
DoomieDoomie911
OMG CRAZY REG
Posts: 981
Joined: Sat May 12, 2012 2:12 pm
Location: United States

Re: Would anyone want to see shadow dragons return in super?

Post by DoomieDoomie911 » Tue Nov 10, 2015 11:12 pm

To be honest, I really don't want anything from GT appearing in Super; and that's coming from a guy that doesn't even mind GT that much. They should remain two separate entities, in my opinion.
"On my business card, I am a corporate president. In my mind, I am a game developer. But in my heart, I am a gamer." -Satoru Iwata
Cipher wrote:Dragon Ball is the story of a kind-hearted, excitable child who uses the power of friendship to improve those around him as he grows into a dangerous obsessive who sometimes accidentally saves the world.
By the way, for anyone that cares, I am a "he" not a "she"... (I have a Twitter account now.)

User avatar
Ringworm128
I Live Here
Posts: 2890
Joined: Tue Apr 06, 2010 3:27 am

Re: Would anyone want to see shadow dragons return in super?

Post by Ringworm128 » Wed Nov 11, 2015 12:01 am

I'm a little on the fence. While I think stuff like the shadow dragons would be a nice nod to GT I also feel that they might not work with the series and are fine as "GT things". A better option IMO would be spin offs, video game "what if's" etc expanding on the shadow dragons and other elements of GT.
Retired from forum discussion.
[Avatar by Ei_Flow]

User avatar
DoomieDoomie911
OMG CRAZY REG
Posts: 981
Joined: Sat May 12, 2012 2:12 pm
Location: United States

Re: Would anyone want to see shadow dragons return in super?

Post by DoomieDoomie911 » Wed Nov 11, 2015 12:18 am

ringworm128 wrote:A better option IMO would be spin offs, video game "what if's" etc expanding on the shadow dragons and other elements of GT.
100% this. "What ifs" have always been some of my favorite things in Dragon Ball games.
"On my business card, I am a corporate president. In my mind, I am a game developer. But in my heart, I am a gamer." -Satoru Iwata
Cipher wrote:Dragon Ball is the story of a kind-hearted, excitable child who uses the power of friendship to improve those around him as he grows into a dangerous obsessive who sometimes accidentally saves the world.
By the way, for anyone that cares, I am a "he" not a "she"... (I have a Twitter account now.)

User avatar
dae428
Beyond-the-Beyond Newbie
Posts: 332
Joined: Sat Jul 19, 2014 7:04 pm
Location: In your heart...

Re: Would anyone want to see shadow dragons return in super?

Post by dae428 » Wed Nov 11, 2015 4:17 am

No for three reasons.

1. People are already complaining about Super rehashing Battle of Gods and Resurrection F. It just doesn't make sense to bring back the Shadow Dragons too. Let Super be it's own thing that has new and unique ideas that we haven't seen before. I don't want to see a show that's already rehashed two movies rehash a show that's already notorious for rehashing plots from another show.

2. The Shadow Dragons look dumb. Seriously besides Syn Shenlong (who I still think looks dumb) all the dragons look totally lame.

3. The concept behind them is generally something I'm not all that fond of. I mean sure it's not a bad idea. People always say that the Dragon Balls are always the Deus ex Machina that just fixes everything, so it makes sense to show some repercussions to the whole use of the Dragon Balls. However, I just can't get behind the idea in the end. It just makes no sense in the story and it would ruin the narrative that the Dragon Balls have had throughout the series.

While I could explain it myself, I feel like this other user by the name of Saiga has already explained it far better than I ever could.
Last edited by dae428 on Wed Nov 11, 2015 4:46 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Lord Frieza
I Live Here
Posts: 3698
Joined: Sun Mar 22, 2015 2:36 pm

Re: Would anyone want to see shadow dragons return in super?

Post by Lord Frieza » Wed Nov 11, 2015 4:29 am

While I'm no GT fanboy I have to say I like the Shadow Dragons even though they look goofy. Hell my favorite is the seven star dragon. I liked him to the point I came up with a what if form and commissioned art of it.

Image

Theirs nothing wrong with the dragons concepts or their designs (thats an subjective issue) the only real problem with them is how they were utilized in the story. I would not mind them or a idea based on them turning up but I prefer that Super dose its own thing.

GTX
Beyond-the-Beyond Newbie
Posts: 331
Joined: Tue Aug 04, 2015 5:12 pm

Re: Would anyone want to see shadow dragons return in super?

Post by GTX » Wed Nov 11, 2015 7:02 am

@ dae
I think he was missing the point. And the wish being mostly selfless was purely just coincidence because the wisher of dragonball is a good people.
Saega was wrong because both of it produce negative energy. Wishing for good and bad thing will result the same damage to the dragonball.
The reason it has the opposite effect probably just coincident if not, It's natural punishment like kaio say. The ball try to punish the good people that overused the dragonball. It's not thinking about good or evil. It's punishment because they were destroying the wheel of fate and the order of nature. The dragonball punish the wisher by being opposite faction with the wisher. still there no proof to support the universe would not be doomed if all the wish are evil but at least we know for certain they will never be able to use the dragonball again because shenron and porunga is a kind dragon. The gods letit slip they can't do nothing they're weak. dragonball is their only saviour when the universe was destroyed. the dragon god is far stronger than them. even kaioshin or god of creation cannot revive 1 people.
The question has been asked by you 10000000000 times and we have become very efficient.
I don't care about non canon stuffs like game, guide book, movie, etc
Spare the trouble because GT is CANON
Be quick and be done with it
inactive :P

buutenks
I'm pretty cozy, here...
Posts: 1884
Joined: Mon Mar 30, 2015 10:42 am

Re: Would anyone want to see shadow dragons return in super?

Post by buutenks » Wed Nov 11, 2015 10:51 am

I disliked the shadow dragon saga allot.So nah not me.

User avatar
successoroffate
OMG CRAZY REG
Posts: 906
Joined: Thu Jul 03, 2014 8:10 pm

Re: Would anyone want to see shadow dragons return in super?

Post by successoroffate » Wed Nov 11, 2015 11:39 am

yamu wrote:Some kind of fusion of all the dragons might be an interesting thing, not counting when Omega absorbed the Dragon Balls. Although I would hope the result would be more in tune with how Omega looked, rather than a wierd hybrid of all the looks. Either way I've always been a fan of the shadow dragons, even if I don't think they would work in Super.
Yes, I would love for the Dragon's to be apart of Super. In fact, anything brought from GT would be a Win-Win for me.
Big Green: Do whateveryoulike, Ghos
Broly: haha He calls me a goohst, but IMMMD DA DEVVVVAAALLL! RAHAHAHAHA!
-----
Trunks: "Dhe computer selffishy intesnafiy dosuementos."
Android 13: Yum Boy
-----
Vegeta: The Legendary Warrior of SpaZe.

User avatar
Ssgvegito30
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 240
Joined: Tue Oct 20, 2015 2:33 am
Location: Canada

Re: Would anyone want to see shadow dragons return in super?

Post by Ssgvegito30 » Wed Nov 11, 2015 11:54 am

successoroffate wrote:
yamu wrote:Some kind of fusion of all the dragons might be an interesting thing, not counting when Omega absorbed the Dragon Balls. Although I would hope the result would be more in tune with how Omega looked, rather than a wierd hybrid of all the looks. Either way I've always been a fan of the shadow dragons, even if I don't think they would work in Super.

Yes, I would love for the Dragon's to be apart of Super. In fact, anything brought from GT would be a Win-Win for me.
There's a reason gt was cancelled the only few good things they've done in gt was ssj4 design, baby saga and super 17 saga the rest was lame especially dragon saga except for 3 dragons the design was childish and weird looking most of the story concept were not gr8 even though super 17 saga was good but what's the point on bringing him back I just hope db super once it goes in to the new territory the story concept is good
"You may have invaded my mind and my body, but there's one thing a Saiyan always keeps! His pride!"

User avatar
successoroffate
OMG CRAZY REG
Posts: 906
Joined: Thu Jul 03, 2014 8:10 pm

Re: Would anyone want to see shadow dragons return in super?

Post by successoroffate » Wed Nov 11, 2015 11:57 am

Ssgvegito30 wrote:
successoroffate wrote:
yamu wrote:Some kind of fusion of all the dragons might be an interesting thing, not counting when Omega absorbed the Dragon Balls. Although I would hope the result would be more in tune with how Omega looked, rather than a wierd hybrid of all the looks. Either way I've always been a fan of the shadow dragons, even if I don't think they would work in Super.

Yes, I would love for the Dragon's to be apart of Super. In fact, anything brought from GT would be a Win-Win for me.
There's a reason gt was cancelled the only few good things they've done in gt was ssj4 design, baby saga and super 17 saga the rest was lame especially dragon saga except for 3 dragons the design was childish and weird looking most of the story concept were not gr8 even though super 17 saga was good but what's the point on bringing him back I just hope db super once it goes in to the new territory the story concept is good
If anything, the Shadow Dragons saga is refreshing and it ties in with DBZ, as the concept of misuse of the DragonBalls (As stated by Supreme Kai) came from DBZ.
Big Green: Do whateveryoulike, Ghos
Broly: haha He calls me a goohst, but IMMMD DA DEVVVVAAALLL! RAHAHAHAHA!
-----
Trunks: "Dhe computer selffishy intesnafiy dosuementos."
Android 13: Yum Boy
-----
Vegeta: The Legendary Warrior of SpaZe.

Sodhi
I Live Here
Posts: 2180
Joined: Sun Aug 02, 2015 9:53 pm

Re: Would anyone want to see shadow dragons return in super?

Post by Sodhi » Wed Nov 11, 2015 12:06 pm

It's a great idea guys but the only problem is that Gt already did it. It would not happen in Super because it would be considered lazy, in a sense of taking arcs from gt.

User avatar
fadeddreams5
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 5137
Joined: Fri Aug 08, 2014 10:53 pm
Location: New York

Re: Would anyone want to see shadow dragons return in super?

Post by fadeddreams5 » Wed Nov 11, 2015 12:07 pm

Ssgvegito30 wrote:
successoroffate wrote:
yamu wrote:Some kind of fusion of all the dragons might be an interesting thing, not counting when Omega absorbed the Dragon Balls. Although I would hope the result would be more in tune with how Omega looked, rather than a wierd hybrid of all the looks. Either way I've always been a fan of the shadow dragons, even if I don't think they would work in Super.

Yes, I would love for the Dragon's to be apart of Super. In fact, anything brought from GT would be a Win-Win for me.
There's a reason gt was cancelled the only few good things they've done in gt was ssj4 design, baby saga and super 17 saga the rest was lame especially dragon saga except for 3 dragons the design was childish and weird looking most of the story concept were not gr8 even though super 17 saga was good but what's the point on bringing him back I just hope db super once it goes in to the new territory the story concept is good
As far as I can tell, the shadow dragon saga is regarded the best one in GT, while the Super 17 is almost universally panned for having a nonsensical story that seems made by someone with a hard-on for Android 17.
"Dragon Ball once became a thing of the past to me, but after that, I got angry about the live action movie, re-wrote an entire movie script, and now I'm complaining about the quality of the new TV anime. It seems Dragon Ball has grown on me so much that I can't leave it alone." - Akira Toriyama on Dragon Ball Super

Sodhi
I Live Here
Posts: 2180
Joined: Sun Aug 02, 2015 9:53 pm

Re: Would anyone want to see shadow dragons return in super?

Post by Sodhi » Wed Nov 11, 2015 12:15 pm

fadeddreams5 wrote: As far as I can tell, the shadow dragon saga is regarded the best one in GT, while the Super 17 is almost universally panned for having a nonsensical story that seems made by someone with a hard-on for Android 17.
I heard that super 17 was just a set up to Shadow dragons arc. In a sense of filling the balls with negative energy.

User avatar
irreality
OMG CRAZY REG
Posts: 931
Joined: Mon Jun 22, 2015 3:08 pm
Location: Boston, MA
Contact:

Re: Would anyone want to see shadow dragons return in super?

Post by irreality » Wed Nov 11, 2015 12:19 pm

Thinking about it, the other reason I dislike the idea of the shadow dragons is that the more noble a wish is the worse a dragon they have to fight. Which seems to encourage people to make lots of evil or pointless wishes instead of a very few noble and really important wishes. That is a stupid way for "good" magical items to work (or if it is a universal restriction, a poor way for a good universe to work).

Although the fights in this saga are some of the best in GT, the idea always irked me.

Sodhi
I Live Here
Posts: 2180
Joined: Sun Aug 02, 2015 9:53 pm

Re: Would anyone want to see shadow dragons return in super?

Post by Sodhi » Wed Nov 11, 2015 12:23 pm

irreality wrote:Thinking about it, the other reason I dislike the idea of the shadow dragons is that the more noble a wish is the worse a dragon they have to fight. Which seems to encourage people to make lots of evil or pointless wishes instead of a very few noble and really important wishes. That is a stupid way for "good" magical items to work (or if it is a universal restriction, a poor way for a good universe to work).

Although the fights in this saga are some of the best in GT, the idea always irked me.
I agree. There should be a limit not a consequence to use dragon balls for a good cause. Even though gt's idea sounds good but it kinda happened from nowhere.

User avatar
Lord Frieza
I Live Here
Posts: 3698
Joined: Sun Mar 22, 2015 2:36 pm

Re: Would anyone want to see shadow dragons return in super?

Post by Lord Frieza » Fri Nov 13, 2015 7:34 pm

irreality wrote:Thinking about it, the other reason I dislike the idea of the shadow dragons is that the more noble a wish is the worse a dragon they have to fight. Which seems to encourage people to make lots of evil or pointless wishes instead of a very few noble and really important wishes. That is a stupid way for "good" magical items to work (or if it is a universal restriction, a poor way for a good universe to work).

Although the fights in this saga are some of the best in GT, the idea always irked me.
I have to disagree with you their. It not really that simple, the idea (as I understand it) is that when ever a wish is made on the dragon ball they use positive energy regardless of what that wish entails. While the wish and the intent/situation behind it will effect the personality of dragon it spawns they are still created from negative energy and they will be inherently evil. While he as a moral code the 4 star dragon doesn't seem to have a problem with killing the men he fights. A dragon born from a truly evil wish would likely appear noble but in truth they would actually be a zealot who would to destroy anything he views evil at any cost, even if it meant destroying an entire planet.

The idea is that using the dragon balls in any situation goes against the natural order of the universe and there is a price for that not matter what your wishes are.

User avatar
irreality
OMG CRAZY REG
Posts: 931
Joined: Mon Jun 22, 2015 3:08 pm
Location: Boston, MA
Contact:

Re: Would anyone want to see shadow dragons return in super?

Post by irreality » Fri Nov 13, 2015 8:02 pm

The idea is that using the dragon balls in any situation goes against the natural order of the universe and there is a price for that not matter what your wishes are.
And that is essentially the main problem I have with them: In a story called "Dragon Ball" using the dragon balls should *not* be against the order of the universe. Good wishes shouldn't create negative energy -- I don't like things in the story that try to convince the heroes to be more "normal" or avoid the magic inherent in the world they inhabit. The fact that important and good wishes are "more" detrimental to the universe than Piccolo Daimao's wish just exacerbates that problem.

User avatar
Lord Frieza
I Live Here
Posts: 3698
Joined: Sun Mar 22, 2015 2:36 pm

Re: Would anyone want to see shadow dragons return in super?

Post by Lord Frieza » Sat Nov 14, 2015 12:05 pm

The dragon balls already have limitations imposed on them by their creators and they are scatter all over the world after every use. This was done to prevent them from being over used. Even without the concept of the shadow dragons the dragon balls were never meant to be used as a "get out of jail free card" for every situation by their original creators. Hell even without these limitations the dragon balls can bring misfortune. Just the mere mention of their power is enough to entice wicked beings to come to earth and namek. Just because they people who were murdered by the saiyans and Freeza's men get wished back doesn't take away the pain they suffered during their death. Or they can be used for evil, if not for luck on the heroes part Frieza could have brought more suffering to the universe then Yī Xīng Lóng ever could. The dragon only wanted to destroy the universe, Freeza would grind it beneath his heel for all eternity.

User avatar
irreality
OMG CRAZY REG
Posts: 931
Joined: Mon Jun 22, 2015 3:08 pm
Location: Boston, MA
Contact:

Re: Would anyone want to see shadow dragons return in super?

Post by irreality » Sat Nov 14, 2015 12:19 pm

Lord Frieza wrote:The dragon balls already have limitations imposed on them by their creators and they are scatter all over the world after every use. This was done to prevent them from being over used. Even without the concept of the shadow dragons the dragon balls were never meant to be used as a "get out of jail free card" for every situation by their original creators. Hell even without these limitations the dragon balls can bring misfortune. Just the mere mention of their power is enough to entice wicked beings to come to earth and namek.
I don't mind limitations: limitations are part of "magic a being magic a". All fairy universes have rules and consequences to encourage correct use and discourage incorrect use --all magic attracts both good and bad people. The Shadow dragons punish the very existence of the dragon balls and disproportionately discourage even the most correct use of the Dragon balls. That is my problem with them.

The rest of what you said is not relevant to the argument I'm making: I'm not denying whether there are better or worse enemies than the Shadow dragons (debatable). I'm arguing on a meta story-telling level: Shadow Dragons are a bad storytelling element if you like the Dragon Universe being a magical universe where that magic can be good. They are a story tellling element *designed* to wrap up the story in a neat little bow by removing Goku and removing the Dragon Balls from the story.

Post Reply