Super Animation Catalogue 2.0

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: Super Animation Catalogue - [Updated with #49]

Post by fexus » Mon Jun 27, 2016 12:34 am

Can anybody tell me why Goku's normal hair still looks like plastic while Black Goku's hair is all black?
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Re: Super Animation Catalogue - [Updated with #49]

Post by JulieYBM » Mon Jun 27, 2016 1:45 am

fexus wrote:Can anybody tell me why Goku's normal hair still looks like plastic while Black Goku's hair is all black?
Artistic effect. This helps keep the two characters separate, too.
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Re: Super Animation Catalogue - [Updated with #49]

Post by Cursemark505 » Mon Jun 27, 2016 2:12 am

Sodhi wrote:
Cursemark505 wrote:
It's completely unacceptable for their talent to have been downgraded to this level.
I understand Kuroyanagi but whats so special about onishi Yoichi?. He is certainly not onishi ryo.
I'm not saying he's special, I'm saying he's supervised better looking episodes.
kinisking wrote:That would be horrible.

No it wouldn't. Naruto does it, and it produces outstanding results.
Shimanuki and Karasawa deserve better.

Shimanuki stopped being great after Dragon ball originally ended.
I'd rather all the episodes be decent than one episode being amazing while the rest are shit.

All episodes aren't decent though. Most of them are rushed & range from mediocre to terrible.
We still have good episodes every now and then without resorting to that.

Those episodes do not reach their full potential. Less than half of it actually. You're settling for less.

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Re: Super Animation Catalogue - [Updated with #49]

Post by dhaval_dongre » Mon Jun 27, 2016 2:21 am

Tbh I dont understand the complaints regarding the animation and art regarding this episode. Yoichi Onishi was doing the first part of the episode and he did well. His Beerus shots were especially done very well. He came from World Trigger. It was his second episode after 43. Though I can agree that the parts handled by Toma weren't that good. The final parts handled by Kenji Kuroyanagi were really good. Definitely another good addition to the series. So overall I think it was a good episode.

I don't understand why some were disappointed by the episode. I can agree that it wasn't as good as last week's but it was still fine. The schedule has improved but its still a bit tight. Its common knowledge among the fanbase that the animation is improving and we have more talented people working on the series, but its not gonna improve overnight. Hopefully we will get to that place gradually. But one thing is for sure that its definitely improving.

Moreover we have had many new additions to the series. Onishi, Matsuzaka and Masahiro Naoi are all new supervisors that are working on Super and they all came from World Trigger. Moreover we also have new animators like Futoshi Higashide and Kenji Kuroyanagi working on the series. The schedule is tight but the good thing is that we now have a bigger staff and more talented animators working on the series. Their addition has definitely helped in improving the schedule for other supervisors who have been working on the series from the start. So I dont think there is any reason to be too disappointed regarding the art and animation aspect of the series.

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Re: Super Animation Catalogue - [Updated with #49]

Post by Cursemark505 » Mon Jun 27, 2016 3:52 am

dhaval_dongre wrote:Tbh I dont understand the complaints regarding the animation and art regarding this episode.

The complaints are valid.
The animation really wasn't that good to me.
It would have been tolerable of there weren't a lot of wonky shots scattered all over the place.
The schedule is tight but the good thing is that we now have a bigger staff and more talented animators working on the series.

What's the point of talented animators if they aren't producing anything worthwhile & the cuts they animate are really short?

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Re: Super Animation Catalogue - [Updated with #49]

Post by Sodhi » Mon Jun 27, 2016 4:18 am

I dont know what happened during part 2, but part 1 for me looked really polished and had some great storyboarding by kaizawa. Looks like Part 2 was probably rushed and had TAP involvement. Things I liked from part 2 the most was everything from Kuroyanagi.

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Re: Super Animation Catalogue - [Updated with #49]

Post by dhaval_dongre » Mon Jun 27, 2016 4:54 am

Cursemark505 wrote:
dhaval_dongre wrote:Tbh I dont understand the complaints regarding the animation and art regarding this episode.

The complaints are valid.
The animation really wasn't that good to me.
It would have been tolerable of there weren't a lot of wonky shots scattered all over the place.
The schedule is tight but the good thing is that we now have a bigger staff and more talented animators working on the series.

What's the point of talented animators if they aren't producing anything worthwhile & the cuts they animate are really short?
The initial parts and the final parts handled by Onishi and Kuroyanagi were good. The middle wasn't that good, but overall it it was still ok. But its fine if u don't feel that way. I don't have any problem with that.

Regarding the schedule Ajay made a nice video about that. I don't know whether u have seen it but here it is https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-hHM-8QtmUE

The schedule obviously has been a issue right from the start. Toei rushed the production. But it has improved since then and they are continuing to do so. That's why they did the filler episodes for an entire month. As I said earlier, the schedule won't improve overnight and will take some time, and currently is still a bit tight. But the good thing is that its better than before and consequently the quality of the episodes has improved and will hopefully continue to be improve as the episodes go by.

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Re: Super Animation Catalogue - [Updated with #49]

Post by ArchedThunder » Mon Jun 27, 2016 6:31 am

JulieYBM wrote:They need to stop spreading what they have too thinly. Keep all of the good animators for Tate Naoki's episode and just make one good episode every two months. That's their only hope at this point.
This is ridiculous, we've had multiple nice looking episodes recently, they just need to continue trying to improve the schedule in anyway they can and try to get more talented animators on board.


As for part 2, I don't think Toma is a good supervisor... Part A of 33 looked incredibly rushed and he was the first supervisor listed, part B of 41 looked incredibly rushed and he was the second listed supervisor and now that happened again. I think Toma must be crazy slow or bad at mangement or something. To me it looks like Kenji Kuroyanagi was brought on at the last second to try and save part B of this episode.

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Re: Super Animation Catalogue - [Updated with #49]

Post by Cursemark505 » Mon Jun 27, 2016 7:13 am

dhaval_dongre wrote:he initial parts and the final parts handled by Onishi and Kuroyanagi were good.
The beginning of the episode only had decent art, for the most part.
There was still a badly drawn shot of the characters at around 6:20 of the episode.
There was barely any movement as far as animation goes.

The second half of the episode started off as awful.
More bad shots.
The art got better during the Dabura vs Trunks segment but the animation was terrible.
The art turned bad again after they returned to present day & stayed that way until Trunks first attacked Goku.

The Trunk vs Goku fight was mediocre & nothing really happened in terms of animation during Kuroyanagi's part of the episode.
That's why they did the filler episodes for an entire month.
I'm confused as to how doing filler episodes would change the schedule.
But the good thing is that its better than before and consequently the quality of the episodes has improved and will hopefully continue to be improve as the episodes go by.
How did you determine that the quality improved with so little to go off of?
We're only 3 episodes into the Trunks arc & there were still many bad moments.
Aside from the first episode, that filler arc was all over the place.

The BOG arc of Super was comparable to what's going on in the Trunks arc.

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Re: Super Animation Catalogue - [Updated with #49]

Post by dhaval_dongre » Mon Jun 27, 2016 8:04 am

Cursemark505 wrote:
dhaval_dongre wrote:he initial parts and the final parts handled by Onishi and Kuroyanagi were good.
That's why they did the filler episodes for an entire month.
I'm confused as to how doing filler episodes would change the schedule.
But the good thing is that its better than before and consequently the quality of the episodes has improved and will hopefully continue to be improve as the episodes go by.
How did you determine that the quality improved with so little to go off of?
We're only 3 episodes into the Trunks arc & there were still many bad moments.
Aside from the first episode, that filler arc was all over the place.

The BOG arc of Super was comparable to what's going on in the Trunks arc.
Not 47 but 36 actually. Though 36 didn't look that good, the art and animation started to improve from there. Before 36 Super was really struggling with the art and animation. The Botamo fight and both Frost fights weren't that good. It was around 36 that WT was finished. Though its not totally confirmed that the WT staff started to work from there, will have to confirm that from Ajay. 37 by Tate was gr8. 38 was again very good. 39 was ok. 1st half of 40 was good. 41 was decent. 42, 43 were good. 44 by karasawa was again gr8, though he only did part of it and the rest was done by Wanpack(its a reputed Japanese studio). 45, 46 were meh. So the art and animation have improved from there onwards. From 41 onwards we got 3 new supervisors, considerably huge no.of animators working on the series and there was also a minor shuffling of staff during that period. Among all the important supervisors only Karasawa and Tate did some work for the filler arc and that also on a very small scale. So the intention behind that arc was that it can give some time to the important supervisors to work on future episodes and some new guys were also added to the series. Ajay also mentioned it in his YouTube video.

EDIT : For additional info u will have to browse past 20-25 pages of this thread.

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Re: Super Animation Catalogue - [Updated with #49]

Post by Ajay » Mon Jun 27, 2016 8:28 am

I'm personally with Jacob on this one. I'd prefer mediocrity for a few weeks as long as we always get an excellent pay-off every once in a while. The current trend of mediocre to reasonably impressive is satisfactory, but not ideal. Naruto's a great example of this. Go look at episode #123 of Shippuuden and compare the before and after episodes. To have huge jumps in quality every now and then would be pretty cool. I just worry it would come at the cost of the overall base quality of Super. It's low enough as it is, I wouldn't want to make a sacrifice and have it drop drastically lower.

I think the comments regarding this week are hugely exaggerated. I literally just finished rewatching the episode and aside from the occasional shot like this (which isn't even THAT bad in the first place), it was mostly okay. I think we as viewers instinctively find anything that deviates from the norm as far worse than it really is, when in reality, it's usually okay.

Examples:
[spoiler]Image
Image
Image
Image[/spoiler]

Yeah, they might not be to your tastes, but I wouldn't say any of those are outright badly drawn. They're just a very different style from what we're used to.

I think Cursemark's comments about the recent quality of Super aren't entirely off the mark, even I do think his opinion on this week's episode is grossly exaggerated. In terms of model-quality, I think we're quite comfortably sat around the Battle of Gods' level, but I do believe the average action scene is of a higher level. The schedule has definitely improved -- we can quantify that very easily from looking at dates and additional staff designation -- and I think that's where the overall quality increase in the action comes from. We saw this most clearly during the recent filler arc, and it's continued onward into the Future Trunks arc, too.

Either way, I will agree that we're definitely not at a point where talents that can perform are able to do so at the best of their ability. That's definitely the biggest shame, but I won't pretend I don't appreciate the quality increase they provide, regardless.
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Re: Super Animation Catalogue - [Updated with #49]

Post by ArchedThunder » Mon Jun 27, 2016 10:24 am

I agree and disagree with you Ajay. I agree with you that the schedule is absolutely better, but that it still has a ways to go. I disagree with you on the idea of focusing their manpower on one or two supervisors, I think that would be disastrous. Super already has a bad reputation when it comes to art and animation and making it so we only had one good looking episode every month or two would be crazy. Ever since the tournament ended the general quality of the episodes is much closer to the quality of other "never ending" weekly series (though still far off from Pokemon because that show consistently has great animation for some reason). The art is staying mostly on model with it only going wonky here and there for the most part, action is happening a lot more often and is typically pretty good, with the worst of it being at least passable (outside of episode 45 anyways, that shit was bad). Each episode has a lot more actual animation, with hair and clothes moving more often and characters doing small movements more and even the occasionally ridiculously smooth animation of something mundane, like Bulma getting up off the ground in 47. The first two episodes of the arc are very solid and 49 was the first one that I would classify as not so great, but still not bad, while next week looks like it has the potential to be an amazingly animated episode. I think for the way the schedule is at this moment they are basically allocating their manpower in the best way possible, especially if 50 lives up to the preview. We're going to get some less than stellar episodes here and there, but I think the quality of 47 and 48 and great for episodes that aren't the "big moments" of an arc, mostly on model animation that is pretty smooth most of the time with some surprisingly solid action, and hopefully what we've seen of 50 is what we can expect from the big moments.
I think the best thing to do right now for the series is to continue the way they are and continue to do what ever they're doing with the schedule to further improve it and try their best to get more of their top talent to work on the show, even if it's only here and there. Swapping some of the series regulars out for other people wouldn't be a bad idea either *coughtkitanoandtoma*.

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Re: Super Animation Catalogue - [Updated with #49]

Post by JulieYBM » Mon Jun 27, 2016 11:12 am

Animators like Kuroyanagi, Higashide, Ootsuka and Tate are not doing the level of work they a usually known for. That's the biggest problem with the series and the problem that needs rectifying soonest. If we can't get the general production schedule improved then focusing on only one episode at a time is the only option until things change.

Mind you, things for this series will never change at this rate, but that's where we are right now.
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Re: Super Animation Catalogue - [Updated with #49]

Post by ArchedThunder » Mon Jun 27, 2016 11:22 am

JulieYBM wrote:Animators like Kuroyanagi, Higashide, Ootsuka and Tate are not doing the level of work they a usually known for. That's the biggest problem with the series and the problem that needs rectifying soonest. If we can't get the general production schedule improved then focusing on only one episode at a time is the only option until things change.

Mind you, things for this series will never change at this rate, but that's where we are right now.
This is bull, things have clearly been improving and and the base quality of the series has gotten better. Jeopardizing the quality of the entire show just to have a few amazing episodes here and there would be an awful decision, especially when Toriyama himself has complained about the series' quality and according to Kei nearly left the show all together. They need to continue trying to improve the schedule as they have been and try to keep the average quality of the show up. Episode 50 clearly shows they are going to be spending extra on resources to make sure certain episodes look great, so taking people off of other episodes is definitely not needed.
And it's the only option for what? To please a small portion of the fan base every now and then while simultaneously pissing off a larger amount of the fan base regularly?
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Re: Super Animation Catalogue - [Updated with #49]

Post by JulieYBM » Mon Jun 27, 2016 11:31 am

ArchedThunder wrote:
JulieYBM wrote:Animators like Kuroyanagi, Higashide, Ootsuka and Tate are not doing the level of work they a usually known for. That's the biggest problem with the series and the problem that needs rectifying soonest. If we can't get the general production schedule improved then focusing on only one episode at a time is the only option until things change.

Mind you, things for this series will never change at this rate, but that's where we are right now.
This is bull, things have clearly been improving and and the base quality of the series has gotten better. Jeopardizing the quality of the entire show just to have a few amazing episodes here and there would be an awful decision, especially when Toriyama himself has complained about the series' quality and according to Kei nearly left the show all together. They need to continue trying to improve the schedule as they have been and try to keep the average quality of the show up. Episode 50 clearly shows they are going to be spending extra on resources to make sure certain episodes look great, so taking people off of other episodes is definitely not needed.
I see no real improvement in the series. A few extra on-model still shots are nothing. The actual battles lack good animation despite being animated by those who specialize in action. That's a tremendously huge problem that goes to show the series is still in the middle of Hell.
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Re: Super Animation Catalogue - [Updated with #49]

Post by ArchedThunder » Mon Jun 27, 2016 11:34 am

JulieYBM wrote: I see no real improvement in the series. A few extra on-model still shots are nothing. The actual battles lack good animation despite being animated by those who specialize in action. That's a tremendously huge problem that goes to show the series is still in the middle of Hell.
The animation has gotten a lot better, most of the action since the tournament ended has been vastly improved and as I said before many smaller things are receiving extra attention now too, like hair and cloth and small character movements. 50 looks like the arc's first big fight and if the preview is anything to go by it's going to be a great looking episode.
The show's main concern on a week to week basis should be to make sure it stays at a certain average quality, not to put all of their resources onto one episode every month or two to please a small portion of the fan base while simultaneously pissing off a larger amount of the fan base by releasing tons of shitty episodes in succession.

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Re: Super Animation Catalogue - [Updated with #49]

Post by dhaval_dongre » Mon Jun 27, 2016 1:11 pm

IMO we have seen very little of Kuronayagi and Higashide or even Otsuka(in the current improved schedule), so we are yet to see how they can perform in the current timeframe. Also whatever Tate and Karasawa did for 37 and 38 was nice in that timeframe. I guess what they are trying to do by introducing new guys like Onishi, Matsuzaka and Naoi is to let them handle normal episodes and bring in guys like Higashide and Kuroyanagi for the important shots or for important episodes. Also I was really happy to see Tate have 8 weeks for the first time during 47. I hope that we see him next handle an action heavy episode. Though Kuronayagi's shot wasn't as good as Higashide's Black vs Trunks, I think it might be mainly because he was brought in at the last minute for 49. But Jacob's idea isn't bad, many anime often do as he suggested, but for Super they can't afford to. The one thing Super can do is hire a considerably large amount of staff and let them do the normal episodes, while the main staff does the action heavy episodes. And that exactly seems to be the trend from 41 onwards. Also 49 was outsourced to both Studio L and TAP. One thing is for sure that the episodes have definitely improved from what we saw in the RoF and U6 arcs.

Also Otsuka is gonna be back, which will be interesting.

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Re: Super Animation Catalogue - [Updated with #49]

Post by DragonBalllKaiHD » Mon Jun 27, 2016 2:13 pm

I agree with Jacob and Ajay to some degree. Things certainly have improved since the last arc, but by not much. The animation still lacks the real movement. Naoki Tate is genius when it comes to animation. He was able to create illusion by making it look like it really moved. Episode 47 was an example of that. But the problem still remains. He's yet to utilize his full potential as an animator. Same with Shimanuki. Dragon Ball Super was announced in April 2015. Had they started the production in December or Janurary, which would have given them about 7 or 8 months to work on episodes, the negative critiques would be much less than what we currently have. Oonishi, Kuroyanagi, Higashide,and Ootsuka each would be able to fully use their talents for Tate, Shimanuki, and Karasawa, preferably two good animators each for these three supervisors. Right now, they are only allowed 2,500 drawings, when 3,500 would be an ideal for a 7 months production schedule.

My main concern at this point is their maintainability in the quality they currently have at hands. Right now, my preference is for Toei to have big name animators work under Tate, Shimanuki, and Karasawa, not utilizing them all under Tate. It would only make my viewing even less enjoyable. It would certainly make Tate's episodes look amazing, but all other supervisors would suffer tremendously in the process.

The only way for Super to improve is by the following, which can be an optional that can be achieved only as long as Toei stopped being hardheaded:
  • Stop airing episodes for 6 months, while allowing the production continue. Hire Toyble to become a weekly mangaka to keep the fans busy.
  • Have the script writers scribble out quickly to allow the staff to work on the storyboards, layouts, and key animation ahead of their usual schedule.
  • Have the episodes outscourced to the lesser studios, like MADHOUSE, Pierriot, or even TAP for a few months while the main staff gets more time on hands
  • Hire 3 or 4 Animation Supervisors for each episode for a few months.
Do one of these and you have an improved quality we all have been wishing for.
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Re: Super Animation Catalogue - [Updated with #49]

Post by ArchedThunder » Mon Jun 27, 2016 2:21 pm

DragonBalllKaiHD wrote:Things certainly have improved since the last arc, but by not much. The animation still lacks the real movement. Naoki Tate is genius when it comes to animation. He was able to create illusion by making it look like it really moved. Episode 47 was an example of that.
This just isn't true, we've seen lots of animation recently and 47 is a great example of that with even small things like Bulma picking her self up after the first explosion, that was really smooth animation.
DragonBalllKaiHD wrote:The only way for Super to improve is by the following, which can be an optional that can be achieved only as long as Toei stopped being hardheaded:
  • Stop airing episodes for 6 months, while allowing the production continue. Hire Toyble to become a weekly mangaka to keep the fans busy.
  • Have the script writers scribble out quickly to allow the staff to work on the storyboards, layouts, and key animation ahead of their usual schedule.
  • Have the episodes outscourced to the lesser studios, like MADHOUSE, Pierriot, or even TAP for a few months while the main staff gets more time on hands
  • Hire 3 or 4 Animation Supervisors for each episode for a few months.
Do one of these and you have an improved quality we all have been wishing for.
1.They can't just take Super off of the air for 6 months since they have to fill the time slot. If Super goes off air it will be for good, it might get a sequel series after a year or so, but Super will be over.

2.They finished the "Final script" for the current arc in February, they likely hired the person who has written all of the episodes for the arc so far shortly after to write the episodes while they finished the Champa arc.

3.This wouldn't do anything when the main issue has been getting scripts, storyboards and layouts done on in a timely manor. As mentioned above they seem to actively be trying to work out these issues.

4. We saw them do this late in the tournament and a fair amount of the episodes between the tournament and the current arc, I also wouldn't be surprised if episode 50 and any other big episodes in this arc have 3+ supervisors.
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Re: Super Animation Catalogue - [Updated with #49]

Post by kinisking » Mon Jun 27, 2016 2:22 pm

I'd rather all the episodes be decent than one episode being amazing while the rest are shit.
All episodes aren't decent though. Most of them are rushed & range from mediocre to terrible.
I appreciate you going through everything I said and laying out your points. You made some good ones. However, I completely disagree with you on this point. Most of these episodes ARE at least decent. The only ones in this entire series that werent were 25,24, and 5 imo. And if you don't think they're decent now, just wait until you shift all the good animators to one fucking week out of 2 months.
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