Super Animation Catalogue 2.0

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: Super Animation Catalogue 2.0 - Episode 100

Post by Asura » Mon Nov 13, 2017 6:04 pm

Oh, I thought you were talking about the animation/art quality, which is why I was surprised at you saying the ToP was only .1 better than FT :D .

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Re: Super Animation Catalogue 2.0 - Episode 100

Post by HeroR » Tue Nov 14, 2017 12:51 am

Baggie_Saiyan wrote:#40:

Really poor way to finish the tournament. Having Yashima on the "finale" seemed odd but there was very little action, still though Yashima doing the finale... his art is just never get used too, especially base Goku. He also tends to draw SSGSS Goku without the bang, which like the baseball ep makes it odd when he gets corrected in a shot with the bang, one moment Goku doesn't have the bang the next he does...lol.

Overall the U6 arc has honestly been a disappointment on this re-watch, #38 was the only stand out one and even then that is nothing special compared to other episodes, hell there were better individual episodes in the retellings than anything in the U6 arc. Just goes to show how boring standard tournament are, seemed not much creativity to be had as opposed to what we're getting in the ToP.

I am interested in how things in the Trunks arc hold up, ~2 months till that starts up.

-----
FartiliciousManChild wrote:Guys, just a question regarding Super in general, as a whole, how would you compare this Super to early Super (disregarding the BoG and RoF arc, not the movies though)? What would you rate Super nowadays in it's entirety?
Watching the current arc simultaneously with the U6 arc via dub weekly... it is no contest really current arc is 100% better in every aspect, even "meh" episodes of this arc are better than most from that arc. The supervision, animation, consistency in art, the filter, direction, SB even the music all sooo much better.
Can't really agree with that since 38 was the one I found boring on rewatch, mostly because of Vegeta and Cabba. Although the animation in U6 was nothing to write home about, except I still love 39 and 40, the actual story is still fun to watch with Magetta vs. Vegeta still being one of my favorite fights in Super to the point that I kind of wished Magetta won.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: Super Animation Catalogue 2.0 - Episode 100

Post by JazzMazz » Tue Nov 14, 2017 1:02 am

HeroR wrote:
Baggie_Saiyan wrote:#40:

Really poor way to finish the tournament. Having Yashima on the "finale" seemed odd but there was very little action, still though Yashima doing the finale... his art is just never get used too, especially base Goku. He also tends to draw SSGSS Goku without the bang, which like the baseball ep makes it odd when he gets corrected in a shot with the bang, one moment Goku doesn't have the bang the next he does...lol.

Overall the U6 arc has honestly been a disappointment on this re-watch, #38 was the only stand out one and even then that is nothing special compared to other episodes, hell there were better individual episodes in the retellings than anything in the U6 arc. Just goes to show how boring standard tournament are, seemed not much creativity to be had as opposed to what we're getting in the ToP.

I am interested in how things in the Trunks arc hold up, ~2 months till that starts up.

-----
FartiliciousManChild wrote:Guys, just a question regarding Super in general, as a whole, how would you compare this Super to early Super (disregarding the BoG and RoF arc, not the movies though)? What would you rate Super nowadays in it's entirety?
Watching the current arc simultaneously with the U6 arc via dub weekly... it is no contest really current arc is 100% better in every aspect, even "meh" episodes of this arc are better than most from that arc. The supervision, animation, consistency in art, the filter, direction, SB even the music all sooo much better.
Can't really agree with that since 38 was the one I found boring on rewatch, mostly because of Vegeta and Cabba. Although the animation in U6 was nothing to write home about, except I still love 39 and 40, the actual story is still fun to watch with Magetta vs. Vegeta still being one of my favorite fights in Super to the point that I kind of wished Magetta won.
But, episode 38 was the big Hit episode. Episode 37 was the Vegeta vs Cabba episode.

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Re: Super Animation Catalogue 2.0 - Episode 100

Post by HeroR » Tue Nov 14, 2017 1:25 am

JazzMazz wrote: But, episode 38 was the big Hit episode. Episode 37 was the Vegeta vs Cabba episode.
You're right. For some reason I was thinking of 37. I think it popped into my mind since I remember that episode getting a lot of praise animation-wise when it aired. But in either case, my mistake.

As for 38, I personally think it's one of Tate's weakest works in Super and it wasn't all that appealing looking back at it. Specifically, Vegeta looked weird in many shots in 38. But the animation was very good.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: Super Animation Catalogue 2.0 - Episode 100

Post by Amir » Tue Nov 14, 2017 1:26 pm

In the U6 arc, the only good episodes were 36,37,38,39 and 40. As for animation quality: 37,38 and 39 had good animation cuts, but then again they also had many flaws and garbage looking cuts.

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Re: Super Animation Catalogue 2.0 - Episode 100

Post by Asura » Tue Nov 14, 2017 2:14 pm

Who drew this? It looks terribly off-model and surprisingly was even the type of art they went with for the Dokkan Battle card revealed today... ugh.

Image

Image

Those eyes just look so weird. Those highlights in the eyes really need to go and stay gone.

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Re: Super Animation Catalogue 2.0 - Episode 100

Post by ArchedThunder » Tue Nov 14, 2017 2:38 pm

Asura wrote:Who drew this? It looks terribly off-model and surprisingly was even the type of art they went with for the Dokkan Battle card revealed today... ugh.

Image

Image

Those eyes just look so weird. Those highlights in the eyes really need to go and stay gone.
That's not off model.

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Re: Super Animation Catalogue 2.0 - Episode 100

Post by Amir » Tue Nov 14, 2017 3:44 pm

I have a question: Why is Super so inconsistent with the art? I thought the characters designs had a purpose, sure it was nice to have Takahashi on ep114, but he is not a regular supervisor, however Yashima and Tate are and they just ignore the model sheets completely. With all due respect, it would be way better if they used the Yamamuro designs in each episode so the show would look more consistent, especially when the art of Yashima and Tate can be quite offensive, they just do whatever they want, I mean look at ep100 - the way Yashima drew SSJ2 Goku was unacceptable. Why did he even do that? Surely he can draw it better and more accuratly if he chooses to, so what's up with that?

Sorry if I sound ignorant. I just really want to know.

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Re: Super Animation Catalogue 2.0 - Episode 100

Post by s y » Tue Nov 14, 2017 3:53 pm

Amir wrote:I have a question: Why is Super so inconsistent with the art? I thought the characters designs had a purpose, sure it was nice to have Takahashi on ep114, but he is not a regular supervisor, however Yashima and Tate are and they just ignore the model sheets completely. With all due respect, it would be way better if they used the Yamamuro designs in each episode so the show would look more consistent, especially when the art of Yashima and Tate can be quite offensive, they just do whatever they want, I mean look at ep100 - the way Yashima drew SSJ2 Goku was unacceptable. Why did he even do that? Surely he can draw it better and more accuratly if he chooses to, so what's up with that?

Sorry if I sound ignorant. I just really want to know.
Good art takes time. Super's production doesn't afford a lot of these guys who aren't amazing artists in the first place, the time to really nail the model sheets and end up using whatever designs take the least time to animate. Yamamuro's designs don't exactly translate well in terms of efficient animation either.

That would be my guess.

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Re: Super Animation Catalogue 2.0 - Episode 100

Post by Asura » Tue Nov 14, 2017 4:28 pm

ArchedThunder wrote:That's not off model.
It most certainly is. When you compare these two images to base Kefla, you're telling me they're both on model? Because that last image is a lot different and it was very noticeable during the middle of the fight when Kefla all of a sudden starts looking like a rubber doll.

Image

Image

Image

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Re: Super Animation Catalogue 2.0 - Episode 100

Post by ArchedThunder » Tue Nov 14, 2017 4:35 pm

Asura wrote:
ArchedThunder wrote:That's not off model.
It most certainly is. When you compare these two images to base Kefla, you're telling me they're both on model? Because that last image is a lot different and it was very noticeable during the middle of the fight when Kefla all of a sudden starts looking like a rubber doll.

Image

Image

Image
They aren't off model, that's her design and the highlights are just an issue with Super.
Amir wrote:I have a question: Why is Super so inconsistent with the art? I thought the characters designs had a purpose, sure it was nice to have Takahashi on ep114, but he is not a regular supervisor, however Yashima and Tate are and they just ignore the model sheets completely. With all due respect, it would be way better if they used the Yamamuro designs in each episode so the show would look more consistent, especially when the art of Yashima and Tate can be quite offensive, they just do whatever they want, I mean look at ep100 - the way Yashima drew SSJ2 Goku was unacceptable. Why did he even do that? Surely he can draw it better and more accuratly if he chooses to, so what's up with that?

Sorry if I sound ignorant. I just really want to know.
Time, talent and animators having their own styles. They don't have the time to make everything consistent and Yamamuro's style isn't the easiest to mimic, nor do the animators really care for his designs.
Yashima does episodes almost entirely by himself, of course his art isn't going to be great.
I think it's a good thing that the animators aren't stuck to completely following Yamamuro's designs, it allows them to have their own voice.
Last edited by ArchedThunder on Tue Nov 14, 2017 4:49 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Super Animation Catalogue 2.0 - Episode 100

Post by Amir » Tue Nov 14, 2017 4:44 pm

Asura wrote:
ArchedThunder wrote:That's not off model.
It most certainly is. When you compare these two images to base Kefla, you're telling me they're both on model? Because that last image is a lot different and it was very noticeable during the middle of the fight when Kefla all of a sudden starts looking like a rubber doll.

Image

Image

Image
No...it is not.

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Re: Super Animation Catalogue 2.0 - Episode 100

Post by Asura » Tue Nov 14, 2017 5:06 pm

C'mon guys, it's pretty damn obvious how those shots don't line up with any of the other shots done by other animators

[spoiler]During the fight:

Image

After the fight:

Image

NEP:

Image[/spoiler]

Pretty easy to see that the shots after the fight and in the NEP look very, very similar to each other, and the shots during the fight look a lot different than the rest. They stand out, hence they're off-model.

The eyes are off, the hair is off (bangs are much bigger than the other pictures), and the proportions on her body look really strange like she's an 8 year old compared to the other shots where she looks much more womanly and in proportion. Maybe it's because her head is too big? Or the arms are too short? I don't know, something clearly doesn't look right though.

It sorta looks like a mix of Kitano's work and the guy who draws characters like little munchkins, as Ajay likes to put it. Shimanuki I think was his name? I'm starting to get better at putting names to the art/animation.

And now that I look it up, it was indeed Kitano. No wonder it looks so off.

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Re: Super Animation Catalogue 2.0 - Episode 100

Post by ArchedThunder » Tue Nov 14, 2017 5:22 pm

The style being a little different doesn't make it off model, nor does it make it bad. There is nothing wrong with that image.

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Re: Super Animation Catalogue 2.0 - Episode 100

Post by Asura » Tue Nov 14, 2017 5:46 pm

ArchedThunder wrote:The style being a little different doesn't make it off model
Then what does make something look off model? Because that sounds like a very convenient excuse to wave off any criticism of the art in this show.

You're right in that just because it's off model doesn't always necessarily mean it's bad. For example, 114 with Takahashi can technically be considered off model as it didn't really follow any of the character design sheets for Super.

That being said though, it's pretty obvious this isn't a change for the better and it deviates from the other shots of her by different artists. I was actually watching a review on YouTube by a well known DB YouTuber, who normally doesn't pay that much attention to art and animation, and even he said he could immediately notice the difference once the fight started and Kefla started looking... weird.

Likewise, most people who commented on the Dokkan card were complaining about the art too. One upvoted comment I saw said they were disappointed that they went with "that type of art" instead of "the other art", obviously referencing to how she looks during the fight and after/NEP.

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Re: Super Animation Catalogue 2.0 - Episode 100

Post by MrWalnut4 » Tue Nov 14, 2017 6:00 pm

Asura wrote:
ArchedThunder wrote:The style being a little different doesn't make it off model
Then what does make something look off model? Because that sounds like a very convenient excuse to wave off any criticism of the art in this show.

You're right in that just because it's off model doesn't always necessarily mean it's bad. For example, 114 with Takahashi can technically be considered off model as it didn't really follow any of the character design sheets for Super.

That being said though, it's pretty obvious this isn't a change for the better and it deviates from the other shots of her by different artists. I was actually watching a review on YouTube by a well known DB YouTuber, who normally doesn't pay that much attention to art and animation, and even he said he could immediately notice the difference once the fight started and Kefla started looking... weird.
You can tell the difference between a shot drawn by Tsuji and Ishikawa. That doesn't make either one off-model. Being off model is straying far enough away from the character sheets to be noticeably distracting. You are being needlessly hypercritical because two different animators have different idiosyncrasies when drawing the same character. Not expecting an entire episode to look like it was drawn by one person isn't "hand-waving" art issues.

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Re: Super Animation Catalogue 2.0 - Episode 100

Post by Asura » Tue Nov 14, 2017 6:22 pm

MrWalnut4 wrote:
Asura wrote:
ArchedThunder wrote:The style being a little different doesn't make it off model
Then what does make something look off model? Because that sounds like a very convenient excuse to wave off any criticism of the art in this show.

You're right in that just because it's off model doesn't always necessarily mean it's bad. For example, 114 with Takahashi can technically be considered off model as it didn't really follow any of the character design sheets for Super.

That being said though, it's pretty obvious this isn't a change for the better and it deviates from the other shots of her by different artists. I was actually watching a review on YouTube by a well known DB YouTuber, who normally doesn't pay that much attention to art and animation, and even he said he could immediately notice the difference once the fight started and Kefla started looking... weird.
You can tell the difference between a shot drawn by Tsuji and Ishikawa. That doesn't make either one off-model. Being off model is straying far enough away from the character sheets to be noticeably distracting. You are being needlessly hypercritical because two different animators have different idiosyncrasies when drawing the same character. Not expecting an entire episode to look like it was drawn by one person isn't "hand-waving" art issues.
That's nonsense, and no I'm not being needlessly hypercritical. If something looks bad, it looks bad, and I'm clearly not the only person to notice this issue. Also, something doesn't need to look like ep5 to be considered bad.

Look at the two pictures I linked that were the after/NEP pictures. I could be wrong but I'm pretty sure they're drawn by two different people judging by the shape of the eyes, hair shading, hair shape, and mouth size. They're different, yet look similar enough where it's not distracting or jarring. When one picture looks like the character is eight years old and the other picture looks like the character is a grown adult, you can't tell me that's okay and chalk it up to "style differences".

The way she was drawn here is distracting, it is jarring. Like I said, it's not just me, others immediately noticed it too and pointed it out once the fight started. Making an entire episode look like it was drawn by only one person is tough, but that's what they should always be striving for, that sense of consistency to get it as close as possible. This didn't look consistent, and looked more like Goku was all of a sudden fighting a glowing plastic barbie doll instead of a grown, muscular woman.

I noticed the last time I pointed out art for looking terrible because Goku & Vegeta also looked like 8 year olds in certain parts of 106, people were rushing to the artist's defense that time too. They said it was just "style" and I can't criticize it. Well sorry but I will criticize it. The style sucks, and I'd rather have art that makes full grown people look like people and not oompa loompas with gigantic heads, massive eyes, and oddly disproportionate bodies. It almost seems like unless a drawing is episode 5 stick figure tier or episode 24 tier, you can't criticize it for looking bad.

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Re: Super Animation Catalogue 2.0 - Episode 100

Post by Baggie_Saiyan » Tue Nov 14, 2017 6:38 pm

Amir wrote:I have a question: Why is Super so inconsistent with the art? I thought the characters designs had a purpose, sure it was nice to have Takahashi on ep114, but he is not a regular supervisor, however Yashima and Tate are and they just ignore the model sheets completely. With all due respect, it would be way better if they used the Yamamuro designs in each episode so the show would look more consistent, especially when the art of Yashima and Tate can be quite offensive, they just do whatever they want, I mean look at ep100 - the way Yashima drew SSJ2 Goku was unacceptable. Why did he even do that? Surely he can draw it better and more accuratly if he chooses to, so what's up with that?

Sorry if I sound ignorant. I just really want to know.
Because Yamamuro isn't doing half his job, along with CD he is credited as "animation director" in the OP he should be the one trying to make each episode look consistent instead that jobs fallen to Tsuji and Ide, his work in #39 and #110 is what he should be doing on most episodes. Crazy thing he is not even a regular KA or supervisor so he can be somewhat "excused".

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Re: Super Animation Catalogue 2.0 - Episode 100

Post by ArchedThunder » Tue Nov 14, 2017 6:43 pm

Baggie_Saiyan wrote: Because Yamamuro isn't doing half his job, along with CD he is credited as "animation director" in the OP he should be the one trying to make each episode consistent instead that jobs fallen to Tsuji and Ide, his work in #39 and #110 is what he should be doing on most episodes. Crazy thing he is not even a regular KA or supervisor so he can be somewhat "excused".
That's not true, Yamamuro has a ton of work to do on the series and we know he's shown up multiple times, and who knows how often he actually shows up. Also his title is Supervising
Director of Animation, not "animation director".
Beyond work on episodes he solos the endings, he has to do character designs, promo art, cover arts and other things. There's a reason other shows are moving away from Character Designers also being the Chief Supervisors. Yamamuro is a busy person and art inconsistency isn't because he isn't "doing his job".

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Re: Super Animation Catalogue 2.0 - Episode 100

Post by Baggie_Saiyan » Tue Nov 14, 2017 7:15 pm

ArchedThunder wrote:
Baggie_Saiyan wrote: Because Yamamuro isn't doing half his job, along with CD he is credited as "animation director" in the OP he should be the one trying to make each episode consistent instead that jobs fallen to Tsuji and Ide, his work in #39 and #110 is what he should be doing on most episodes. Crazy thing he is not even a regular KA or supervisor so he can be somewhat "excused".
That's not true, Yamamuro has a ton of work to do on the series and we know he's shown up multiple times, and who knows how often he actually shows up. Also his title is Supervising
Director of Animation, not "animation director".
Beyond work on episodes he solos the endings, he has to do character designs, promo art, cover arts and other things. There's a reason other shows are moving away from Character Designers also being the Chief Supervisors. Yamamuro is a busy person and art inconsistency isn't because he isn't "doing his job".
FUNi's TL has him listed as "Character Design, Animation director".

Anyway most of his endings are like mostly stills anyway and he only does promo art occasionally, shit star promo artist has a tonne way more for the series, Yamamuro only seems to do promo art when it's important, not on a regular basis. He also didn't design Vegetto for the Trunks arc. As for the cover arts aside from the singles covers the BD and Vjump covers don't look like they take that long especially for a man who prides himself on how quick he can draw. (Now I think about it I think he was referring to specifically to Goku not generally still though).

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