Super Animation Catalogue 2.0

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Re: Super Animation Catalogue 2.0

Post by Asura » Sun Feb 18, 2018 3:05 pm

JazzMazz wrote:
Amir wrote:What do you guys mean when you say weak direction?
Weak music placement and timing, also referring to a complete lack of atmosphere through stuff like lighting, they also make sure to approve stuff, like animators layouts, they supervise the art department, CG staff and so on.
How was the music placement weak in this episode? It was about as perfect as it could get, with desperate, despair type music playing as Jiren destroys Goku, and then the emotional piano theme with the transformation. I don’t see how music placement can be a complaint on this episode.

The rest of your post is rather vague. They supervise the different departments, okay, but how does that all translate into the episode having weak direction?

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Re: Super Animation Catalogue 2.0

Post by Hit!! » Sun Feb 18, 2018 11:13 pm

I love how they're borrowing music from the Zamasu arc, its the best soundtrack in the whole series!!

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Re: Super Animation Catalogue 2.0

Post by majinwarman » Sun Feb 18, 2018 11:43 pm

Asura wrote:
majinwarman wrote:
Asura wrote:It was a decent episode in terms of animation. Nothing to write home about, and definitely nothing to criticize IMO.

Next episode is looking really good, surprised there's not really much hype about it here.
I think that most people don't care anymore.
Why would people not care anymore? This is the finale of the show.
I see people giving up the show now due to the Mastered Ultra Instinct thing. I think it is stupid but oh well.
Last edited by majinwarman on Sun Feb 18, 2018 11:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Super Animation Catalogue 2.0

Post by majinwarman » Sun Feb 18, 2018 11:45 pm

Asura wrote:
JazzMazz wrote:
Amir wrote:What do you guys mean when you say weak direction?
Weak music placement and timing, also referring to a complete lack of atmosphere through stuff like lighting, they also make sure to approve stuff, like animators layouts, they supervise the art department, CG staff and so on.
How was the music placement weak in this episode? It was about as perfect as it could get, with desperate, despair type music playing as Jiren destroys Goku, and then the emotional piano theme with the transformation. I don’t see how music placement can be a complaint on this episode.

The rest of your post is rather vague. They supervise the different departments, okay, but how does that all translate into the episode having weak direction?
He means by how the episode flowed and where and what music is put in a scene. I do think that there were some problems with the direction but it isn't as bad as others say.
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Re: Super Animation Catalogue 2.0

Post by Amir » Sun Feb 18, 2018 11:49 pm

majinwarman wrote:
Asura wrote:
JazzMazz wrote: Weak music placement and timing, also referring to a complete lack of atmosphere through stuff like lighting, they also make sure to approve stuff, like animators layouts, they supervise the art department, CG staff and so on.
How was the music placement weak in this episode? It was about as perfect as it could get, with desperate, despair type music playing as Jiren destroys Goku, and then the emotional piano theme with the transformation. I don’t see how music placement can be a complaint on this episode.

The rest of your post is rather vague. They supervise the different departments, okay, but how does that all translate into the episode having weak direction?
He means by how the episode flowed and where and what music is put in a scene. I do think that there were some problems with the direction but it isn't as bad as others say.
Imo the slow pacing and bad storyboard were the main problems. The action wasn't framed too well.

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Re: Super Animation Catalogue 2.0

Post by majinwarman » Sun Feb 18, 2018 11:51 pm

Amir wrote:
majinwarman wrote:
Asura wrote:
How was the music placement weak in this episode? It was about as perfect as it could get, with desperate, despair type music playing as Jiren destroys Goku, and then the emotional piano theme with the transformation. I don’t see how music placement can be a complaint on this episode.

The rest of your post is rather vague. They supervise the different departments, okay, but how does that all translate into the episode having weak direction?
He means by how the episode flowed and where and what music is put in a scene. I do think that there were some problems with the direction but it isn't as bad as others say.
Imo the slow pacing and bad storyboard were the main problems. The action wasn't framed too well.
It could have been better but I still like the episode. Hey, do you know why the Episode 128 thread got shut down for?
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Re: Super Animation Catalogue 2.0

Post by Asura » Mon Feb 19, 2018 12:24 am

majinwarman wrote:
Amir wrote:
majinwarman wrote: He means by how the episode flowed and where and what music is put in a scene. I do think that there were some problems with the direction but it isn't as bad as others say.
Imo the slow pacing and bad storyboard were the main problems. The action wasn't framed too well.
It could have been better but I still like the episode. Hey, do you know why the Episode 128 thread got shut down for?
I guess things were getting slightly uncivil between a few people, but closing down the thread only one day after the episode airs is pretty damn silly, especially because it’s just the actions of a few people. I don’t understand the point of locking the thread, the post warning people to chill out would have been more than enough.

Anyway, how is the line up for this next episode? Is it an all star team of animators? Because the preview really does look damn good, and ironically enough I see more people in other threads getting hype about the NEP than I do in here, the actual animation thread.

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Re: Super Animation Catalogue 2.0

Post by JazzMazz » Mon Feb 19, 2018 1:05 am

Asura wrote:
majinwarman wrote:
Amir wrote: Imo the slow pacing and bad storyboard were the main problems. The action wasn't framed too well.
It could have been better but I still like the episode. Hey, do you know why the Episode 128 thread got shut down for?
I guess things were getting slightly uncivil between a few people, but closing down the thread only one day after the episode airs is pretty damn silly, especially because it’s just the actions of a few people. I don’t understand the point of locking the thread, the post warning people to chill out would have been more than enough.

Anyway, how is the line up for this next episode? Is it an all star team of animators? Because the preview really does look damn good, and ironically enough I see more people in other threads getting hype about the NEP than I do in here, the actual animation thread.
Well, I'm not going to lie, I'm suitably hyped for it and I've expressed that in spades on Ajay's discord server.

As for the line up, animation wise, from what we definitely know, it doesn't seem to be very special, with Hirotaka Nii and Koji Nashizawa. However, from the looks of things, it seems that Nii has made a drastic change in style since his work on 113, and developed it into something genuinely pretty interesting, and reminiscent of the old Z designs, so that's something I guess. As for animators we think are going to be on the episode, a lot of people have thrown around Yuichi Karasawa, and I have to say, this work in the NEP certainly does seem like him. I guess it'll be interesting to see how good of an action animator he genuinely is.

However, despite the animation department being slightly underwhelming on paper, most people, myself included, are excited due to the storyboard and direction by Masato Mitsuka, who is far and away the best regular director and story boarder on the show.
Asura wrote: How was the music placement weak in this episode? It was about as perfect as it could get, with desperate, despair type music playing as Jiren destroys Goku, and then the emotional piano theme with the transformation. I don’t see how music placement can be a complaint on this episode.

The rest of your post is rather vague. They supervise the different departments, okay, but how does that all translate into the episode having weak direction?
As for this comment, I think Ajay sums it up pretty well here.
Ajay wrote:Aside from the management side of things, they're responsible for pretty much everything creatively. The colour tones throughout, the lighting, the music placement, the way scenes are edited together. Some of them will agonise over the drawings with the AD. Making sure the stuff moves how they want it to. Ensuring the timing of each scene fits the tone they want. Timing the sense of here's one scene, let's cut to X. This is in the storyboard too but directors will sometimes swap things around. But yeah, pacing primarily.

They're the core of an episode.

This is why I mentioned that a show like JoJo is fantastic in spite of not having much animation. Because its directors are really good.

It's also why an episode like Yashima's last one is more exciting than last night's despite last night's being better drawn.

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Re: Super Animation Catalogue 2.0

Post by Baggie_Saiyan » Mon Feb 19, 2018 10:26 am

Am I only one that thought the SB was decent? Certainly not the best ever but wayyyy better then say ResF movie. I liked the diagonal angle used when Goku was fighting Jiren for example. I'm also surprised at the people's reaction to the direction again I thought it was fine, all the music placements were on point and to me I was sold on the atmosphere. The only thing I think let the episode down was the animation or rather lack of animation.

I rewatched it last night specifically focusing on the technical aspects and that's how I felt.

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Re: Super Animation Catalogue 2.0

Post by emperior » Mon Feb 19, 2018 1:11 pm

Baggie_Saiyan wrote:Am I only one that thought the SB was decent? Certainly not the best ever but wayyyy better then say ResF movie. I liked the diagonal angle used when Goku was fighting Jiren for example. I'm also surprised at the people's reaction to the direction again I thought it was fine, all the music placements were on point and to me I was sold on the atmosphere. The only thing I think let the episode down was the animation or rather lack of animation.

I rewatched it last night specifically focusing on the technical aspects and that's how I felt.
The storyboard had its highs and downs, but the downs were more and overall it was just average. I would have liked this episode to have better direction and storyboarding considering it's one of the last ones, but unfortunately Yamamuro didn't quite deliver and Ajay's criticism in his video is completely justified; Yamamuro definitely used the same pose way too many times and the angles were mostly uninteresting. There also was no scale to the battle, and it truly felt like they were fighting on a very little portion of the arena.

I liked this episode too, by the way. The animation was decent enough, although there were some bad art instances here and there.
Something that was truly missing in this episode and that would have improved it in my eyes is blood. The best thing of Vegeta's battle with Kid Buu, which strongly resembles Vegeta vs Jiren, was the fact that Vegeta kept standing up and fighting even though he was noticeably damaged and bleeding a lot, so I definitely would have wanted to finally see some blood in this arc, but they avoid it at all costs even though they can show it in Kai flashbacks and have used sometimes in Super too.
Sure, at least this time they had a great idea when they gave Vegeta a black eye, but it would have been better if he bleeded - even if just a little.
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Re: Super Animation Catalogue 2.0

Post by FortuneSSJ » Mon Feb 19, 2018 2:06 pm

Baggie_Saiyan wrote:Am I only one that thought the SB was decent? Certainly not the best ever but wayyyy better then say ResF movie.
In my case comes from a sense of frustration mixed with a three things - Storyboard + Direction + Writing.

Dragon Ball Super is gonna end and I expect these episodes to blow my mind, which certainly this episode didn't. I would accept this storyboard if we weren't in the climax and DBS wouldn't end next month. Given that's not the case, seeing an episode like this at this point is frustrating, because I want this show to end in a big way. I think we all do.

There«s also something wrong with the Direction. Some scene transitions felt rough, most of the action is slow and the punches don't feel powerful. While that's okay when is Vegeta because he's exhausted, it becomes weird when it happens with Jiren too. I believe this a result of a bad storyboard + a bad director. If the storyboard isn't good, how will someone who is already a bad director bring it to life?!

About the writing part, it's more about how the writers decided to make Vegeta a motivacional punchbag in these last episodes. I know there are people that like this, but I don't like to see the same thing over and over and for me this is not character development anymore, but Vegeta's character going in circles. It's redundant.

When you mix all these components and realize that almost everything that you are watching in the episode is not being interesting, the episode can't hide the fact that its being dragged out and the audience shouldn't feel like this in a climax of a show that's about to end.
Last edited by FortuneSSJ on Mon Feb 19, 2018 2:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Super Animation Catalogue 2.0

Post by DainIronfoot » Mon Feb 19, 2018 2:11 pm

@Baggie Saiyan - Having enjoyed Yamamuro's 126 SB, I can honestly say this was indeed a step down. However, I still think the SB for 128 was okay. It was not good but it wasn't downright terrible (besides the use of the same pose) either. There were some previous episodes that had very underwhelming SB's too. Difference is though that Yamamuro is still newish to the role. Even so, we know he can come up with something creative just based on 126. I believe that 128 just was one of those kinds of episodes where they didn't want to put too much thought into. For me, everything was just okayish. Script, Direction, SB and animation could all have been much better. Its a shame because id hope these last few episodes would ALL be good, but you can tell this episode, the staff just didn't put creativity into it.

Anyways, here is a look at UI Goku [spoiler]Looks like Yamamuro Image[/spoiler]

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Re: Super Animation Catalogue 2.0

Post by majinwarman » Mon Feb 19, 2018 3:43 pm

Asura wrote:
majinwarman wrote:
Amir wrote: Imo the slow pacing and bad storyboard were the main problems. The action wasn't framed too well.
It could have been better but I still like the episode. Hey, do you know why the Episode 128 thread got shut down for?
I guess things were getting slightly uncivil between a few people, but closing down the thread only one day after the episode airs is pretty damn silly, especially because it’s just the actions of a few people. I don’t understand the point of locking the thread, the post warning people to chill out would have been more than enough.

Anyway, how is the line up for this next episode? Is it an all star team of animators? Because the preview really does look damn good, and ironically enough I see more people in other threads getting hype about the NEP than I do in here, the actual animation thread.
I can't believe that people don't know how to control themselves. I understand heated arguments but no one should be attacking each other. We are all fans of Dragon Ball.
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Re: Super Animation Catalogue 2.0

Post by majinwarman » Mon Feb 19, 2018 3:51 pm

JazzMazz wrote:
Asura wrote:
majinwarman wrote: It could have been better but I still like the episode. Hey, do you know why the Episode 128 thread got shut down for?
I guess things were getting slightly uncivil between a few people, but closing down the thread only one day after the episode airs is pretty damn silly, especially because it’s just the actions of a few people. I don’t understand the point of locking the thread, the post warning people to chill out would have been more than enough.

Anyway, how is the line up for this next episode? Is it an all star team of animators? Because the preview really does look damn good, and ironically enough I see more people in other threads getting hype about the NEP than I do in here, the actual animation thread.
Well, I'm not going to lie, I'm suitably hyped for it and I've expressed that in spades on Ajay's discord server.

As for the line up, animation wise, from what we definitely know, it doesn't seem to be very special, with Hirotaka Nii and Koji Nashizawa. However, from the looks of things, it seems that Nii has made a drastic change in style since his work on 113, and developed it into something genuinely pretty interesting, and reminiscent of the old Z designs, so that's something I guess. As for animators we think are going to be on the episode, a lot of people have thrown around Yuichi Karasawa, and I have to say, this work in the NEP certainly does seem like him. I guess it'll be interesting to see how good of an action animator he genuinely is.

However, despite the animation department being slightly underwhelming on paper, most people, myself included, are excited due to the storyboard and direction by Masato Mitsuka, who is far and away the best regular director and story boarder on the show.
Asura wrote: How was the music placement weak in this episode? It was about as perfect as it could get, with desperate, despair type music playing as Jiren destroys Goku, and then the emotional piano theme with the transformation. I don’t see how music placement can be a complaint on this episode.

The rest of your post is rather vague. They supervise the different departments, okay, but how does that all translate into the episode having weak direction?
As for this comment, I think Ajay sums it up pretty well here.
Ajay wrote:Aside from the management side of things, they're responsible for pretty much everything creatively. The colour tones throughout, the lighting, the music placement, the way scenes are edited together. Some of them will agonise over the drawings with the AD. Making sure the stuff moves how they want it to. Ensuring the timing of each scene fits the tone they want. Timing the sense of here's one scene, let's cut to X. This is in the storyboard too but directors will sometimes swap things around. But yeah, pacing primarily.

They're the core of an episode.

This is why I mentioned that a show like JoJo is fantastic in spite of not having much animation. Because its directors are really good.

It's also why an episode like Yashima's last one is more exciting than last night's despite last night's being better drawn.
I think that Nii will show us some good work on his part due to him taking Takahashi's advice and started using the old Z designs. I'm also looking forward for Masato Mitsuka's direction next episode due to him being Super's best director. I think that the episode will also have some work from Karasawa since I see some of his work in the NEP.
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Re: Super Animation Catalogue 2.0

Post by Baggie_Saiyan » Mon Feb 19, 2018 6:19 pm

How accurate is ANN? Cuz they project DBS costs ¥118,821,120 to produce per episode. That's just f**king nuts if true.

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Re: Super Animation Catalogue 2.0

Post by cuartas » Tue Feb 20, 2018 2:02 pm

Baggie_Saiyan wrote:How accurate is ANN? Cuz they project DBS costs ¥118,821,120 to produce per episode. That's just f**king nuts if true.
that's more than 1 million dollars? is that excessive or what?

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Re: Super Animation Catalogue 2.0

Post by Baggie_Saiyan » Tue Feb 20, 2018 2:14 pm

cuartas wrote:
Baggie_Saiyan wrote:How accurate is ANN? Cuz they project DBS costs ¥118,821,120 to produce per episode. That's just f**king nuts if true.
that's more than 1 million dollars? is that excessive or what?
Imagine the numbers over 131 episodes... Yikes. Honestly I'm surprised DBS lasted this long to be honest if these figures are accurate. What's even more crazy is they never allowed any legal simulcast for well over a year! No wonder Toei were so desperate for TV deals overseas.

By comparison ANN don't project but say OP costs ¥10,000,000 per episode.

Then we have constant comments like DBS is cheaply made... With these figures it's the opposite! I knew DBS had to cost more than OP but didn't expect that much more!

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Re: Super Animation Catalogue 2.0

Post by Baggie_Saiyan » Tue Feb 20, 2018 6:25 pm

Well nevermind! Apparently ANN are way off! I was gonna say those figures are too nuts otherwise.

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Re: Super Animation Catalogue 2.0

Post by cuartas » Tue Feb 20, 2018 8:08 pm

Baggie_Saiyan wrote:Well nevermind! Apparently ANN are way off! I was gonna say those figures are too nuts otherwise.
what's the real cost then?

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Re: Super Animation Catalogue 2.0

Post by supersaiyanZero » Tue Feb 20, 2018 10:22 pm

Baggie_Saiyan wrote:
cuartas wrote:
Baggie_Saiyan wrote:How accurate is ANN? Cuz they project DBS costs ¥118,821,120 to produce per episode. That's just f**king nuts if true.
that's more than 1 million dollars? is that excessive or what?
Imagine the numbers over 131 episodes... Yikes. Honestly I'm surprised DBS lasted this long to be honest if these figures are accurate. What's even more crazy is they never allowed any legal simulcast for well over a year! No wonder Toei were so desperate for TV deals overseas.

By comparison ANN don't project but say OP costs ¥10,000,000 per episode.

Then we have constant comments like DBS is cheaply made... With these figures it's the opposite! I knew DBS had to cost more than OP but didn't expect that much more!
Afro Samurai is said to have been around a million dollars per episode. And that is way, way, way better animated than DBS.

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