Super Animation Catalogue 2.0

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: Super Animation Catalogue 2.0

Post by jeffbr92 » Wed Mar 21, 2018 7:37 pm

paulo89988 wrote:Now it's absolutely confirmed!
[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]
Cool! Pray for our God, Shida lol but Takahashi will not be on the movie, right?
JulieYBM wrote:Episode #130 was good because it was off-model. Nobody has been praising the episode for Yamamuro, have they?
Because it was good off-model not bad off-model?

Also, don't get me wrong I love Tate, but I just began to appreciate his work more in the FT arc and onwards.
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Re: Super Animation Catalogue 2.0

Post by paulo89988 » Wed Mar 21, 2018 8:54 pm

Someone twitted about Takahashi always making the character spin in his animations https://twitter.com/Ogk_Ftg/status/975224363107536897 and it looks like they were right, even in his little flash animation he can't resist making the character spin

https://twitter.com/TTSoolBNiuIb6jG/sta ... 7206177792

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Re: Super Animation Catalogue 2.0

Post by AnimeNation101 » Wed Mar 21, 2018 9:58 pm

GTx10 wrote:
JulieYBM wrote:Name three or five pieces of animation from the last two films that had character acting as solid as this new teaser, please.
If I understand this question right...

Son Goku falling from Lord Kaio's window then rushing up to meet Lord Beerus. This segment highlights Goku's goofy, childlike personality and overall foolishness.

Son Gohan changing into Great Saiyaman and proceeding to pelvis thrust his way into a pose. That whole scene screamed "Gohan is a loveble dork."

Lord Beerus falling from his floating bed and "sleep. Nudging/crawling" toward Whis. This scene highlights how colorful the so called God of Destruction can be.

SSB Vegeta VS Golden Freeza. The whole scene highlighted Vegeta's "I'll beat you quickly and without remorse" mindset towards Freeza.

These scenes are as fluid and show personality just like the new teaser do.

Also AnimeNation101 was the only person to show commentary towards Yamamuro's work. (Granted it was from one source that I am uneasy about it.) Nevertheless I shall give credit where credit is due. Good job 101. Do I think these animators should merely stick to the model sheets and merely do the job they are paid for and spend less time injecting their styles into Dragon Ball? Yes, yes I do.
However I shall sit back and watch what unfolds because I will still watch this movie and enjoy whatever crazy lore Toriyama throws at us. So in conclusion, I like the Yamamuro, Takahashi style (as well as the Dragon Ball original look style) the most because that is what I've come to identity as "high grade DB art" while the Tate and modern style is not to my liking because it looks foreign and rushed to me. Like no care was put into the work.
I don't watch much modern anime so much like Yamamuro who seems to be "a old fart stuck in his ways" I to am a "old fart stuck in his ways." But I like to adhere to tradition so viewpoints, opinions, and all that good stuff.

Also I would like DB to look its best (which I think is the Yamamuro, Takahashi style) but you don't see me clamoring for Tate to get the boot much in the same way many of you are clamoring for Yamamuro to get lost.

Anyway I don't like the new look folks.
I thank you for your recognition and respect your opinion while asking that you still watch the movie (or clips of it) to see if the style grows on you. It did for me anyways. (And that’s how you have a respectful mutual understood discussion :thumbup: )
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Re: Super Animation Catalogue 2.0

Post by paulo89988 » Wed Mar 21, 2018 10:23 pm

Unrelated, but even with Takahashi's, Nii's and Karasawa's old school style, no one managed to draw Piccolo better than Masahiro Shimanuki. His Hit(to) is the best too, and his Freeza looks incredible. Too bad his work started to deteriorate in this arc, though I'm still excited to see him in 131.

[spoiler]Image
Image
Image[/spoiler]

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Re: Super Animation Catalogue 2.0

Post by FortuneSSJ » Wed Mar 21, 2018 10:29 pm

-New Teaser-

- The color scheme is what I wanted for years!!
- Great storyboard. I didn't expect any less from Nagamine. It's much better than BOG and ROF first teasers. The icy scenery is also better than any scenery in ROF Movie.
- The animation is fun. I'm addicted to Goku's warm up and the close-up to his glare.

I'm not feeling the artstyle though. I was expecting a Maeda style approach, but what we got is bouncier and looser than that. It's not as offensive as Pokémon Sun and Moon or One Piece Movie 6, but it's still not my cup of tea. Goku also looks like Luffy in some frames, like this one:
[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]

I believe this Movie will be the same thing than DBS episode 130 is for me.

DBS episode 130 is the best animated episode of DBS, but as far as art goes my favourite episodes are still 114 and 122 from Takahashi.
Same thing here. This movie may be the best animated of the franchise, but when it comes to art I will take DBZ Movies 1, 2 and 8 - 12 as the best of this franchise.
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Re: Super Animation Catalogue 2.0

Post by VejituhTheWarriorGuy » Wed Mar 21, 2018 10:50 pm

Totally just an assumption but due to the movie's very different designs, I'm gonna guess that Shimanuki probably won't be on it
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Re: Super Animation Catalogue 2.0

Post by JulieYBM » Wed Mar 21, 2018 11:55 pm

The movie will probably be closer to Tiger Mask W, going by just how little focus there seems to be on the sort of detailed-heavy One Piece films and the fact that the lines seem to be heavy on smears. I think it'll be a movie where Tate Naoki won't be forced to stay so heavily on model.

Image

One of my favorite shots in #130 was this one by Tate. Jiren's posture and the smooth way the lines curve and run down to give a dynamic glimpse at his entire form are so enticing.
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Re: Super Animation Catalogue 2.0

Post by Asura » Thu Mar 22, 2018 12:28 am

TheRed259 wrote:
Firebolt wrote:[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]
Reminds me of Teen Goku from the original DB.
I love this shot so much. The muscles, the shading, the facial feature placement, all the details, it's just so great. A shame that we'll never see this sort of art ever again if Super follows the movie's new art direction when it returns.

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Re: Super Animation Catalogue 2.0

Post by JazzMazz » Thu Mar 22, 2018 3:27 am

Ok, just a bunch of Reponses to a few thing people said.
GTx10 wrote:
JulieYBM wrote:Name three or five pieces of animation from the last two films that had character acting as solid as this new teaser, please.
If I understand this question right...

Son Goku falling from Lord Kaio's window then rushing up to meet Lord Beerus. This segment highlights Goku's goofy, childlike personality and overall foolishness.

Son Gohan changing into Great Saiyaman and proceeding to pelvis thrust his way into a pose. That whole scene screamed "Gohan is a loveble dork."

Lord Beerus falling from his floating bed and "sleep. Nudging/crawling" toward Whis. This scene highlights how colorful the so called God of Destruction can be.

SSB Vegeta VS Golden Freeza. The whole scene highlighted Vegeta's "I'll beat you quickly and without remorse" mindset towards Freeza.

These scenes are as fluid and show personality just like the new teaser do.

Also AnimeNation101 was the only person to show commentary towards Yamamuro's work. (Granted it was from one source that I am uneasy about it.) Nevertheless I shall give credit where credit is due. Good job 101. Do I think these animators should merely stick to the model sheets and merely do the job they are paid for and spend less time injecting their styles into Dragon Ball? Yes, yes I do.
However I shall sit back and watch what unfolds because I will still watch this movie and enjoy whatever crazy lore Toriyama throws at us. So in conclusion, I like the Yamamuro, Takahashi style (as well as the Dragon Ball original look style) the most because that is what I've come to identity as "high grade DB art" while the Tate and modern style is not to my liking because it looks foreign and rushed to me. Like no care was put into the work.
I don't watch much modern anime so much like Yamamuro who seems to be "a old fart stuck in his ways" I to am a "old fart stuck in his ways." But I like to adhere to tradition so viewpoints, opinions, and all that good stuff.

Also I would like DB to look its best (which I think is the Yamamuro, Takahashi style) but you don't see me clamoring for Tate to get the boot much in the same way many of you are clamoring for Yamamuro to get lost.

Anyway I don't like the new look folks.
Only one of the scenes you mentioned was actually comparable to the teaser in terms of fluidity, and that was the Vegeta vs Freeza beatdown, which didn't even have character acting in it.

The Son Goku scene you mentioned was bad, it was really awfully stiff, Goku falling out the window itself was just an awfully choppy snap effect with transitioning frames and the run cycle was laughable.


The Gohan scene is easily the closest thing from the ones scenes you've chosen to be good character acting. I really see an attempt here at snappiness, however, I think that only makes the final result for the scene all the more tragic. It feels so limited, like it was trying to be something more, but just fell completely short of the goal. Despite thinking its the best of your choices for good character acting, its still not that impressive, I would easily say that it doesn't at all compare to the teaser trailer, much less this character acting scene provided by Naoki Tate in Dragonball Super.

As for the Beerus scene, its horrendous, there is literally no fluidity here whatsoever. Its unbearably stiff with the only real redeeming quality to the scene being it was somewhat interestingly storyboarded and directed. Otherwise, if that's what you consider good character acting, then I don't think you've seen good character acting until the preview trailer.

Also,here's a link to my source about Yoshimichi Kameda and here's link to his body of work, its nuts.

I think JulieYBM put it best why your line of thinking about animators "just doing their jobs and following the designs and shouldn't inject idea.
JulieYBM wrote:Japanese animation has been about experimentation since the beginning. Drawing off model and animating loosely is how the industry grew to acquire its current artistic and commercial success. If the early Touei Douga animators hadn't broken the rules of animation television animation would have died off like US television animation has.
FortuneSSJ wrote:-New Teaser-

- The color scheme is what I wanted for years!!
- Great storyboard. I didn't expect any less from Nagamine. It's much better than BOG and ROF first teasers. The icy scenery is also better than any scenery in ROF Movie.
- The animation is fun. I'm addicted to Goku's warm up and the close-up to his glare.

I'm not feeling the artstyle though. I was expecting a Maeda style approach, but what we got is bouncier and looser than that. It's not as offensive as Pokémon Sun and Moon or One Piece Movie 6, but it's still not my cup of tea. Goku also looks like Luffy in some frames, like this one:
[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]

I believe this Movie will be the same thing than DBS episode 130 is for me.

DBS episode 130 is the best animated episode of DBS, but as far as art goes my favourite episodes are still 114 and 122 from Takahashi.
Same thing here. This movie may be the best animated of the franchise, but when it comes to art I will take DBZ Movies 1, 2 and 8 - 12 as the best of this franchise.
Could you find me a frame reference for that shot where you say he looks like Luffy, because I've watched 735 episode of One Piece and I have no idea what your talking about.

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Re: Super Animation Catalogue 2.0

Post by FortuneSSJ » Thu Mar 22, 2018 10:06 am

JazzMazz wrote: Could you find me a frame reference for that shot where you say he looks like Luffy, because I've watched 735 episode of One Piece and I have no idea what your talking about.
I thought it was obvious I was talking about his facial expression... Goku usually doesn't grin like that.
By the way, I watched 828 episodes of One Piece, all the movies and TV Specials.

I also don't have twitter to defend myself, so copy+paste my comments and make fan of them is not really a cool thing to do only because my opinion is different from yours.
Neither makes my opinion wrong. Different people, different opinions. I said what I liked and what I didn't like in the teaser. This is not for you, but I needed to leave this here.
Last edited by FortuneSSJ on Thu Mar 22, 2018 10:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Super Animation Catalogue 2.0

Post by kn83 » Thu Mar 22, 2018 10:13 am

JazzMazz wrote:Ok, just a bunch of Reponses to a few thing people said.
GTx10 wrote:
JulieYBM wrote:Name three or five pieces of animation from the last two films that had character acting as solid as this new teaser, please.
If I understand this question right...

Son Goku falling from Lord Kaio's window then rushing up to meet Lord Beerus. This segment highlights Goku's goofy, childlike personality and overall foolishness.

Son Gohan changing into Great Saiyaman and proceeding to pelvis thrust his way into a pose. That whole scene screamed "Gohan is a loveble dork."

Lord Beerus falling from his floating bed and "sleep. Nudging/crawling" toward Whis. This scene highlights how colorful the so called God of Destruction can be.

SSB Vegeta VS Golden Freeza. The whole scene highlighted Vegeta's "I'll beat you quickly and without remorse" mindset towards Freeza.

These scenes are as fluid and show personality just like the new teaser do.

Also AnimeNation101 was the only person to show commentary towards Yamamuro's work. (Granted it was from one source that I am uneasy about it.) Nevertheless I shall give credit where credit is due. Good job 101. Do I think these animators should merely stick to the model sheets and merely do the job they are paid for and spend less time injecting their styles into Dragon Ball? Yes, yes I do.
However I shall sit back and watch what unfolds because I will still watch this movie and enjoy whatever crazy lore Toriyama throws at us. So in conclusion, I like the Yamamuro, Takahashi style (as well as the Dragon Ball original look style) the most because that is what I've come to identity as "high grade DB art" while the Tate and modern style is not to my liking because it looks foreign and rushed to me. Like no care was put into the work.
I don't watch much modern anime so much like Yamamuro who seems to be "a old fart stuck in his ways" I to am a "old fart stuck in his ways." But I like to adhere to tradition so viewpoints, opinions, and all that good stuff.

Also I would like DB to look its best (which I think is the Yamamuro, Takahashi style) but you don't see me clamoring for Tate to get the boot much in the same way many of you are clamoring for Yamamuro to get lost.

Anyway I don't like the new look folks.
Only one of the scenes you mentioned was actually comparable to the teaser in terms of fluidity, and that was the Vegeta vs Freeza beatdown, which didn't even have character acting in it.

The Son Goku scene you mentioned was bad, it was really awfully stiff, Goku falling out the window itself was just an awfully choppy snap effect with transitioning frames and the run cycle was laughable.


The Gohan scene is easily the closest thing from the ones scenes you've chosen to be good character acting. I really see an attempt here at snappiness, however, I think that only makes the final result for the scene all the more tragic. It feels so limited, like it was trying to be something more, but just fell completely short of the goal. Despite thinking its the best of your choices for good character acting, its still not that impressive, I would easily say that it doesn't at all compare to the teaser trailer, much less this character acting scene provided by Naoki Tate in Dragonball Super.

As for the Beerus scene, its horrendous, there is literally no fluidity here whatsoever. Its unbearably stiff with the only real redeeming quality to the scene being it was somewhat interestingly storyboarded and directed. Otherwise, if that's what you consider good character acting, then I don't think you've seen good character acting until the preview trailer.

Also,here's a link to my source about Yoshimichi Kameda and here's link to his body of work, its nuts.

I think JulieYBM put it best why your line of thinking about animators "just doing their jobs and following the designs and shouldn't inject idea.
JulieYBM wrote:Japanese animation has been about experimentation since the beginning. Drawing off model and animating loosely is how the industry grew to acquire its current artistic and commercial success. If the early Touei Douga animators hadn't broken the rules of animation television animation would have died off like US television animation has.
FortuneSSJ wrote:-New Teaser-

- The color scheme is what I wanted for years!!
- Great storyboard. I didn't expect any less from Nagamine. It's much better than BOG and ROF first teasers. The icy scenery is also better than any scenery in ROF Movie.
- The animation is fun. I'm addicted to Goku's warm up and the close-up to his glare.

I'm not feeling the artstyle though. I was expecting a Maeda style approach, but what we got is bouncier and looser than that. It's not as offensive as Pokémon Sun and Moon or One Piece Movie 6, but it's still not my cup of tea. Goku also looks like Luffy in some frames, like this one:
[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]

I believe this Movie will be the same thing than DBS episode 130 is for me.

DBS episode 130 is the best animated episode of DBS, but as far as art goes my favourite episodes are still 114 and 122 from Takahashi.
Same thing here. This movie may be the best animated of the franchise, but when it comes to art I will take DBZ Movies 1, 2 and 8 - 12 as the best of this franchise.
Could you find me a frame reference for that shot where you say he looks like Luffy, because I've watched 735 episode of One Piece and I have no idea what your talking about.
The scene where Goku is grinning and strikes a pose.

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Re: Super Animation Catalogue 2.0

Post by cuartas » Thu Mar 22, 2018 10:46 am

Asura wrote: I love this shot so much. The muscles, the shading, the facial feature placement, all the details, it's just so great. A shame that we'll never see this sort of art ever again if Super follows the movie's new art direction when it returns.
Yep, I'm also gonna miss that art so much :cry:

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Re: Super Animation Catalogue 2.0

Post by JazzMazz » Thu Mar 22, 2018 3:03 pm

FortuneSSJ wrote:
JazzMazz wrote: Could you find me a frame reference for that shot where you say he looks like Luffy, because I've watched 735 episode of One Piece and I have no idea what your talking about.
I thought it was obvious I was talking about his facial expression... Goku usually doesn't grin like that.
By the way, I watched 828 episodes of One Piece, all the movies and TV Specials.

I also don't have twitter to defend myself, so copy+paste my comments and make fan of them is not really a cool thing to do only because my opinion is different from yours.
Neither makes my opinion wrong. Different people, different opinions. I said what I liked and what I didn't like in the teaser. This is not for you, but I needed to leave this here.
If your going to make a ridiculous claim like that, use a contrasting example to support it, because its a claim that will certainly lead to a lot of ridicule. Could you post a contrast image here to properly demonstrate your point now please?
kn83 wrote: The scene where Goku is grinning and strikes a pose.
I know what shot people are referring to, I just completely fail to see how it looks anything like Luffy.

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Re: Super Animation Catalogue 2.0

Post by FortuneSSJ » Thu Mar 22, 2018 3:51 pm

JazzMazz wrote: If your going to make a ridiculous claim like that, use a contrasting example to support it, because its a claim that will certainly lead to a lot of ridicule. Could you post a contrast image here to properly demonstrate your point now please?
Of course, I can. Here's two:
[spoiler]Image

Image[/spoiler]
Now it's your turn. This is not fun, if I'm the only one that have to backup my "ridiculous" claims here. Can you post some images of Goku where he grins like in that shot?
Because I'm sure he never looked like Luffy before. You can use the anime, manga and the Movies.

-Edit-

I forgot this. He already looked like an One Piece character before.
Last edited by FortuneSSJ on Thu Mar 22, 2018 5:10 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Super Animation Catalogue 2.0

Post by Amir » Thu Mar 22, 2018 4:52 pm

FortuneSSJ wrote:
JazzMazz wrote: If your going to make a ridiculous claim like that, use a contrasting example to support it, because its a claim that will certainly lead to a lot of ridicule. Could you post a contrast image here to properly demonstrate your point now please?
Of course, I can. Here's two:
[spoiler]Image

Image[/spoiler]
Now it's your turn. This is not fun, if I'm the only one that have to backup my "ridiculous" claims here. Can you post some images of Goku where he grins like in that shot?
Because I'm sure he never looked like Luffy before. You can use the anime, manga and the Movies.
Just because he used the same smile doesn't mean he looked like Luffy.

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Re: Super Animation Catalogue 2.0

Post by FortuneSSJ » Thu Mar 22, 2018 4:57 pm

Amir wrote: Just because he used the same smile doesn't mean he looked like Luffy.
Cleary something is wrong with Goku's new character design, because it's the first time me and others are saying he looks like Luffy in some shots. Those claims become less "ridiculous" when you know Shintani already worked in One Piece.

Pokemon Sun and Moon also has this kind of style and nobody is saying Goku looks like Ash.
Last edited by FortuneSSJ on Thu Mar 22, 2018 5:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Super Animation Catalogue 2.0

Post by Chuquita » Thu Mar 22, 2018 5:06 pm

It's the feature placement, imo, more than the smile. Goku doesn't smile as widely as Luffy, but his features at 0:09 are set further down on his face where Luffy's usually are. Outside of that one scene I don't see much similarities though.
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Re: Super Animation Catalogue 2.0

Post by Ajay » Thu Mar 22, 2018 7:16 pm

I have to say, a smile alone really does not make Goku look like Luffy. The particular shot under scrutiny here features a facial expression that's literally all over the manga. It's a stock Goku expression - a smile with a slight upturn at the side.

[spoiler]Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image[/spoiler]

The reason Dragon Ball Sagas actually looks like One Piece is because of the feature placement and the proportions. Long necks, squashed round heads, low ears, short jaws, and very centrally placed (vertically) noses and mouths. As Chuquita already noted, the one instance of the teaser that actually does look Luffy-esque is pretty much the only one that shares similarities, and even then, it's not particularly drastic.

To be perfectly honest, I don't think it's really possible to make someone not see what they see; it's all about perspective, so I'm probably wasting my breath here. I'm sure folks are seeing something that seems off from the norm, but I'm pretty sure comparisons to One Piece are misguided. I too have also seen 800+ episodes of One Piece, alongside the movies and specials, and I was perfectly okay noting the One Piece feature placement issues in the initial design, but man... I do not see them in this teaser at all. This just looks like Goku through and through.

I guess we'll see how things go as more footage comes out. At the very least, I'm very happy to see that detractors of this design are few and far between. On the whole it's been pretty heavily praised, which has both surprised me and made me incredibly happy.
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Re: Super Animation Catalogue 2.0

Post by FortuneSSJ » Fri Mar 23, 2018 1:26 am

Ajay wrote:I have to say, a smile alone really does not make Goku look like Luffy. The particular shot under scrutiny here features a facial expression that's literally all over the manga. It's a stock Goku expression - a smile with a slight upturn at the side.

[spoiler]Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image[/spoiler]
None of those look like the one I posted. Goku looks normal in all of those, while in the shot from the teaser that I posted his facial expression is closer to the Luffy's examples I gave.
Ajay wrote: To be perfectly honest, I don't think it's really possible to make someone not see what they see; it's all about perspective, so I'm probably wasting my breath here. I'm sure folks are seeing something that seems off from the norm, but I'm pretty sure comparisons to One Piece are misguided. I too have also seen 800+ episodes of One Piece, alongside the movies and specials, and I was perfectly okay noting the One Piece feature placement issues in the initial design, but man... I do not see them in this teaser at all. This just looks like Goku through and through.
We will have to agree to disagree. We are clearly not seeing the same thing.
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Re: Super Animation Catalogue 2.0

Post by Asura » Fri Mar 23, 2018 2:02 am

FortuneSSJ wrote:I'm not feeling the artstyle though. I was expecting a Maeda style approach, but what we got is bouncier and looser than that. It's not as offensive as Pokémon Sun and Moon or One Piece Movie 6, but it's still not my cup of tea. Goku also looks like Luffy in some frames, like this one:
[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]
The more I look at this the more I hate this art style. Where is the detail??? There is literally zero linework on his fingers, the muscles are three straight lines, just ugh...

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