Super Animation Catalogue 2.0

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: Super Animation Catalogue 2.0

Post by Lord Beerus » Tue Jul 16, 2019 6:59 pm

I'll chime in with what info I've dug up.

Yuya Takahashi has vanished from the face of the Earth since the Broly movie. No word on what he's up to.

Following the conclusion of the Super anime, Osamu Ishikawa moved over to Hugtto! Precure, proving key animation in Episode 17 and 30. Following the conclusion of Hugtto! Precure, Ishikawa's current whereabouts are unknown.

Koji Nashizawa worked One Piece, serving as Key Animator in Episode 856, and then worked on the DBS Broly movie following that. Just like Ishikawa, Nashizawa moved over to Hugtto! Precure, providing Key Animation in Episode 17 and 28, and hasn't worked on any projects since the end of Hugtto! Precure.

After the finale of Super, Shida worked on DBS Broly where he produced some his finest work:
After that he spilt his time to working on the 2018 version of GeGeGe no Kitarō and the Super Dragon Ball Heroes promotional anime. But it was the Super Dragon Ball Heroes promotional anime (astonishingly) where he manged to produce some of his best work

Ryo Onishi excelled his already quite high standards after the Super TV anime ended with some spectacular animation in DBS Broly. Producing not just the finest parts in the movie, or even the finest cut in an animated Dragon Ball product, but one of the finest pieces of battle choreography you'll see in any animated movie for MANY years.
Since the movie, he hasn't worked on anything.

Seizo Toma has done next to nothing since his last contribution in Episode 55 of Super.

Miyako Tsuji, who served as Chief Animation Director for roughly 40 episodes, worked on Dragon Ball Super Broly as Assistant Animation Director and then moved to Super Dragon Ball Heroes.

Takeo Ide, who also served as Chief Animation Director for roughly 50 episodes, also worked on Dragon Ball Super Broly as Assistant Animation Director. And then worked on an episode of One Piece. Hasn't worked on anything since.

Ken Otsuka did some key animation Dragon Ball Super Broly and season 2 of Mob Psycho 100 (in the finale no less!) after the Super TV anime ended.

Following his last episode in the Super TV anime (#129), Hirotaka Nii worked on Season 3 of My Hero Academia and then DBS Broly. Hasn't worked on anything since.

So here is a basic rundown of the what has happened to the big players of Dragon Ball Super's animation staff since the end of the anime:

Naotoshi Shida: Super TV anime -> Dragon Ball Super Broly -> GeGeGe no Kitarō (2018) -> Super Dragon Ball Heroes
Ryo Onishi: Super TV anime -> Dragon Ball Super Broly -> ?
Naoki Tate: Super TV anime -> Mirai -> Dragon Ball Super Broly -> ?
Shuuichiro Manabe: Super TV anime -> Dragon Ball Super Broly -> ?
Yuya Takahashi: Super TV anime -> Dragon Ball Super Broly -> ?
Hiroyuki Itai: Super TV anime -> Dragon Ball Super Broly -> ?
Atsushi Nikaido: Super TV anime -> Dragon Ball Super Broly -> ?
Yoshitaka Yashima: Super TV anime -> GeGeGe no Kitarō (2018)
Futoshi Higashide: Super TV anime -> Dragon Ball Super Broly -> Golden Kamuy -> GeGeGe no Kitarō (2018)
Yuichi Karasawa: Super TV anime -> Dragon Ball Super Broly -> GeGeGe no Kitarō (2018)
Hirotaka Nii: Super TV anime -> My Hero Academia -> DBS Broly -> ?
Yoshitaka Yashima: Super TV anime -> GeGeGe no Kitarō (2018)
Kenji Miuma: Super TV anime -> Hugtto! Precure -> ?
Koji Nashizawa: Super TV anime -> Dragon Ball Super Broly -> One Piece -> Hugtto! Precure -> ?
Miyako Tsuji: Super TV anime -> Dragon Ball Super Broly -> Super Dragon Ball Heroes
Takeo Ide: Super TV anime -> One Piece -> ?
Ken Otsuka: Super TV anime -> Dragon Ball Super Broly -> Mob Psycho 100 -> ?
Seizo Toma: Super TV anime -> ?

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Re: Super Animation Catalogue 2.0

Post by Ajay » Tue Jul 16, 2019 9:11 pm

Lord Beerus wrote:
Tue Jul 16, 2019 6:59 pm
Ryo Onishi: Super TV anime -> Dragon Ball Super Broly -> ?
Naoki Tate: Super TV anime -> Mirai -> Dragon Ball Super Broly -> ?
Yuya Takahashi: Super TV anime -> Dragon Ball Super Broly -> ?
Takahashi and Tate are on Stampede, and Onishi is presumed to be, too.
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Re: Super Animation Catalogue 2.0

Post by JulieYBM » Tue Jul 16, 2019 11:35 pm

The production of One Piece: Stampede should be nearly over by now, I imagine, so I wonder if the key animators have begun to move on to their new projects, presumably the next Dragon Ball animated series. I definitely wonder what the status of the series is since it appears that the broadcast date was delayed despite production beginning back in October 2018. I'm actually quite happy that it was delayed for the sake of maintaining a good production schedule and I really wonder if this is thanks to the new studio Toei Animation has finally moved over to.
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Re: Super Animation Catalogue 2.0

Post by Sani007 » Wed Jul 17, 2019 1:19 am

JulieYBM wrote:
Tue Jul 16, 2019 11:35 pm
their new projects, presumably the next Dragon Ball animated series. I definitely wonder what the status of the series is since it appears that the broadcast date was delayed despite production beginning back in October 2018. I'm actually quite happy that it was delayed for the sake of maintaining a good production schedule and I really wonder if this is thanks to the new studio Toei Animation has finally moved over to.
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Re: Super Animation Catalogue 2.0

Post by Lord Beerus » Wed Jul 17, 2019 10:53 am

Ajay wrote:
Tue Jul 16, 2019 9:11 pm
Lord Beerus wrote:
Tue Jul 16, 2019 6:59 pm
Ryo Onishi: Super TV anime -> Dragon Ball Super Broly -> ?
Naoki Tate: Super TV anime -> Mirai -> Dragon Ball Super Broly -> ?
Yuya Takahashi: Super TV anime -> Dragon Ball Super Broly -> ?
Takahashi and Tate are on Stampede, and Onishi is presumed to be, too.
Ah. Okay.

==

So, as Ajay has pointed out, Takahashi, Tate and Onishi have all be working on the latest One Piece movie One Piece Stampede, but given that movie is set to release in a few weeks in Japan, it can assumed that their schedule has been free for the last few weeks, at the very least.

So the breakdown is this:

Reserved for Super 2.0(?):
- Shuuichiro Manabe
- Atsushi Nikaido
- Hirotaka Nii
- Takeo Ide
- Hiroyuki Itai
- Koji Nashizawa
- Kenji Miuma

Possible later inclusion for Super 2.0(?):
- Ryo Onishi
- Yuya Takahashi
- Ken Otsuka
- Miyako Tsuji
- Naotoshi Shida

Not available for Super 2.0(?):
- Yukihiro Kitano
- Seizo Toma
- Yuichi Karasawa
- Futoshi Higashide
- Yoshitaka Yashima

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Re: Super Animation Catalogue 2.0

Post by JazzMazz » Thu Jul 18, 2019 6:15 am

What about the boys Shimanuki and Tu? :cry:

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Re: Super Animation Catalogue 2.0

Post by Lord Beerus » Thu Jul 18, 2019 5:12 pm

JazzMazz wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 6:15 am
What about the boys Shimanuki and Tu? :cry:
Ah, I forgot about them. :P

You can put them in the "Not available for Super 2.0(?)" category since they both moved to One Piece and they seem quite happy there.

So it's now:

Reserved for Super 2.0(?):
- Shuuichiro Manabe
- Atsushi Nikaido
- Hirotaka Nii
- Takeo Ide
- Hiroyuki Itai
- Koji Nashizawa
- Kenji Miuma

Possible later inclusion for Super 2.0(?):
- Ryo Onishi
- Yuya Takahashi
- Ken Otsuka
- Miyako Tsuji
- Naotoshi Shida

Not available for Super 2.0(?):
- Yukihiro Kitano
- Seizo Toma
- Yuichi Karasawa
- Futoshi Higashide
- Yoshitaka Yashima
- Masahiro Shimanuki
- Tu Yong Ce

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Re: Super Animation Catalogue 2.0

Post by Lord Beerus » Tue Jul 23, 2019 7:38 am

Forgot about Naoki Tate. Yeah, put him in the "Possible later inclusion for Super 2.0(?)" category.

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Re: Super Animation Catalogue 2.0

Post by JazzMazz » Fri Aug 02, 2019 11:54 pm

Kenji Miuma and Shin Youngsoon, animators who worked on Super(Shin Youngsoon was less prominent, I believe getting sick while the show was ongoing), both worked on the latest fire force episode, and did cool scenes. Now while this episode was made way in advance, still nice to see the staff from Super do noteworthy stuff on other shows.

I believe Shin Youngsoon confirmed this short scene to be his privately, as there is no presumed tag on the booru.
Miuma's scene is a presumption, but I think a well founded one considering the effects on display very much have Miuma's traits, and even the linework in the impact frames are reminiscent of his work on 112.
Just nice to see some to point out some of the former staff on Super doing solid work on a big currently airing show.

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Re: Super Animation Catalogue 2.0

Post by Lord Beerus » Fri Aug 09, 2019 3:54 pm

According to Ajay, another regular animator on Super, Hirotaka Nii, worked on the latest episode of the Fire Force anime.

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Re: Super Animation Catalogue 2.0

Post by Lord Beerus » Sat Aug 10, 2019 7:36 pm

Update on the whereabouts of Super's regulars:

It's been confirmed that Shuuichiro Manabe, Atsushi Nikaido, Yuichi Karasawa, Takeo Ide and Hirotaka Nii all worked on One Piece Stampede as animation supervisors. And given the confirmation that scheduling for the movie was really good, it's safe to say they were given their positions for that movie quite early on. So it's very likely right after they all finished working on Dragon Ball Super Broly, they went straight to One Piece Stampede.

Basically, it looks like practically every talented animator who worked on the Super TV series and movie, went right into working on One Piece Stampede from the get-go. And given that Hirotaka Nii was able to work on the latest episode of Fire Force after being selected to take part in One Piece Stampede, it's safe to say they finished on that movie a while ago.

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Re: Super Animation Catalogue 2.0

Post by Lord Beerus » Thu Aug 15, 2019 5:22 pm

The full staff list for One Piece Stampede was revealed, and yeah, just like it was stated before, every major animator who worked on the Super TV anime worked on One Piece Stampede.

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Re: Super Animation Catalogue 2.0

Post by Noah » Sat Aug 24, 2019 9:49 pm

No news about Super returning yet, right?
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Re: Super Animation Catalogue 2.0

Post by Skar » Fri Sep 04, 2020 8:59 am

I had a question about the animation and I thought this would be the appropriate thread to ask. In an interview with Tatsuya Nagamine, he said "Typically 3,500 to 4,000 frames are used to make one episode of an anime, but they used about double that for the finale. I was like, “What, double? Whoa!” (laughs) Going over the allotted number of frames directly causes the project to go over budget, so it’s something that’s strictly controlled."

I've heard during the first few arcs that budget doesn't matter when it comes to animation quality. That doesn't seem to be the case here since going over their budget resulted in possibly the best looking fight in the entire DBS anime. Is there any documented evidence of the budget or frames per episode of the earlier arcs in DBS and how they compare to other leading anime? I know there are many opinions on the subject which is why I'm asking for actual evidence like in this interview.

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Re: Super Animation Catalogue 2.0

Post by Ajay » Fri Sep 04, 2020 10:00 am

Skar wrote:
Fri Sep 04, 2020 8:59 am
I had a question about the animation and I thought this would be the appropriate thread to ask. In an interview with Tatsuya Nagamine, he said "Typically 3,500 to 4,000 frames are used to make one episode of an anime, but they used about double that for the finale. I was like, “What, double? Whoa!” (laughs) Going over the allotted number of frames directly causes the project to go over budget, so it’s something that’s strictly controlled."

I've heard during the first few arcs that budget doesn't matter when it comes to animation quality. That doesn't seem to be the case here since going over their budget resulted in possibly the best looking fight in the entire DBS anime. Is there any documented evidence of the budget or frames per episode of the earlier arcs in DBS and how they compare to other leading anime? I know there are many opinions on the subject which is why I'm asking for actual evidence like in this interview.

The phrase "budget doesn't affect animation quality" is a popular one because it helps dispel the myth that simply throwing money at a project or scene makes it better. You'll often see comments on a regular episode with a cool moment like "Wow, they put all the budget into that scene!", when in reality it just happened to be a top-tier animator's work, and it cost no more or less than normal. "Budget doesn't affect animation quality" is more or less akin to "Power levels are bullshit", in the sense that it's more or less true, but it's not irrelevant; it just fails to account for the huge number of more important variables.

So budget absolutely does play a part, it's just not in the way a lot of people think. When you spend a lot of money on an episode, and it gives you those gigantic frame counts, what you're doing is creating potential. All that frame count says is that the episode might move more, not that it will move well. To fulfil that potential, you need to ensure you've accumulated adequate talent, and that they've got enough time to pull it off.

I like to use a cooking metaphor to best demonstrate this. Paying a lot of money to bring in the finest ingredients creates the potential for a top-tier dish, but give it to a mediocre chef, and you're not gonna get much worth out of it. Bring in someone like Gordon Ramsay and only give him 30 seconds, and you're not getting something that matches his full potential either. Spending all the money created incredible potential for something good, but unless you have the perfect combination of talent and time, it really makes zero difference.

With Episode 130, the increased budget gave them the freedom to pull off an almost non-stop action episode, but the reason it looks so good is because it's packed to the brim of the series' most talented action animators, and it's the product of a production that used intensive time-saving measures throughout the tournament up until to this point - the biggest example being the episode that proceeds it, which is full to the brim of reused animation and talking heads.

As far as earlier DBS, it was 3500 frames per episode, and the Universe Survival arc was bumped to 4500 per Nagamine's request. Once again, it's one of those cases where the schedule improved a lot behind the scenes due to the extensive planning and outsourcing during the gap between the Future Trunks arc and Universe Survival arc. For other shows, something seasonal with top-tier action like Mob Psycho 100 has around 8000 frames per episode on average, with bigger episodes hitting upwards of 15,000. That show consistently produced work that was certainly better looking that just double the frame count would suggest, and that's because of its overwhelming pool of talent, and an absurd schedule that saw near enough every episode finished prior to the air date.

So... yeah, budget is a factor, but it's nothing more than a ceiling of potential, and doesn't actually say much about how an episode or production is going to look. That will forever come down to the talent of the animators involved, and just how blessed the schedule turned out to be.

Hope that helps! :thumbup:
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Re: Super Animation Catalogue 2.0

Post by Matches Malone » Fri Sep 04, 2020 10:21 am

Ajay wrote:
Fri Sep 04, 2020 10:00 am
For other shows, something seasonal with top-tier action like Mob Psycho 100 has around 8000 frames per episode on average, with bigger episodes hitting upwards of 15,000. That show consistently produced work that was certainly better looking that just double the frame count would suggest, and that's because of its overwhelming pool of talent, and an absurd schedule that saw near enough every episode finished prior to the air date.
If DB were to return as a seasonal anime, could it potentially have that many frames ? or is that a studio thing, and Toei simply uses 3000-4500 on all their shows ?

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Re: Super Animation Catalogue 2.0

Post by Ajay » Fri Sep 04, 2020 10:32 am

Matches Malone wrote:
Fri Sep 04, 2020 10:21 am
Ajay wrote:
Fri Sep 04, 2020 10:00 am
For other shows, something seasonal with top-tier action like Mob Psycho 100 has around 8000 frames per episode on average, with bigger episodes hitting upwards of 15,000. That show consistently produced work that was certainly better looking that just double the frame count would suggest, and that's because of its overwhelming pool of talent, and an absurd schedule that saw near enough every episode finished prior to the air date.
If DB were to return as a seasonal anime, could it potentially have that many frames ? or is that a studio thing, and Toei simply uses 3000-4500 on all their shows ?
It's not impossible, but Toei are famously strict with their frame counts. It's not because they're cheap asses or anything (though they certainly can be), it's a security measure due to the number of shows they produce. Toei Phils do all the inbetweening and finishing for their anime, so if out of nowhere they were suddenly inundated with one show requiring a huge number of frames consistently with every episode, it would start to affect other shows negativity across the board. Finite time and staff and all that jazz.

You can do a lot with those frame counts though, so that's not as depressing as it sounds! Tiger Mask W and Kyousougiga both look fantastic because of the staff and schedule, and the upcoming Dragon Quest Dai is looking to be wonderfully animated too if staff are to be believed. New trailer coming on the 6th, so fingers crossed!
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Re: Super Animation Catalogue 2.0

Post by Skar » Fri Sep 04, 2020 10:43 am

Ajay wrote:
Fri Sep 04, 2020 10:00 am
So... yeah, budget is a factor, but it's nothing more than a ceiling of potential, and doesn't actually say much about how an episode or production is going to look. That will forever come down to the talent of the animators involved, and just how blessed the schedule turned out to be.

Hope that helps! :thumbup:
Thank you! This is the kind of answer I was hoping for with a detailed explanation and specific examples. The reason I asked was because I remember people looking up the industry average and claiming that applied to Toei as in that was as good as we should expect. In most industries, the average usually doesn't reflect what the biggest companies are capable of. I've never seen an above average anime looking like this including other recent Toei anime so it makes sense there were other factors involved.

I also wanted to ask about the two anime that came after DBS, Kitaro and the new Digimon Adventure. The animation looks consistent from the few episodes I've seen. If they had the same average number of frames as DBS, did the difference come down to maybe a better production schedule or more staff if Toei had fewer projects at the time?

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Re: Super Animation Catalogue 2.0

Post by Matches Malone » Fri Sep 04, 2020 10:56 am

Skar wrote:
Fri Sep 04, 2020 10:43 am
If they had the same average number of frames as DBS, did the difference come down to maybe a better production schedule or more staff if Toei had fewer projects at the time?
It was the pre-production schedule. The average anime requires at least 6 months of pre-production time, while Super unfortunately had half of that at 3 months, maybe even less. There are members of the staff who've went as far as to say that Super's production suffered for at least the first 50 episodes before things started improving, and even then it never reached what it would've had it got proper time from the start.

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Re: Super Animation Catalogue 2.0

Post by JulieYBM » Fri Sep 04, 2020 11:56 am

Better scheduling and more staff. The designs in general are also just less ugly, too. I've about 40 episodes behind on Kitarou (yay for depression!) But the series typically always had some great animators working on it. Not every episode would be action-heavy, either.

With Digimon Ajay has mentioned before that they intentionally front-loaded the beginning of the series due to the importance or the arc. Now there's usually one good animator per episode to do a small piece of good action animation. Otherwise it can certain feels like the series is being conservative sometimes but who knows how COVID has affected the production.

Tiger Mask W and Kyousougiga are such gold standards for Toei, though. God!
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