Gohan's lack of Mystic form explained?

[Lord Beerus]

Can I just say something real quick, just a rant, totally on topic:

GOHAN recovers TWICE from NEAR FATAL wounds (0% - 100% HP).
NO ZENKAI BOOST WHATSOEVER?!
He should be beyond his mystic power IMO.

Once you achieve SSJ, zenkai are pretty useless.

Is that a legit thing, can you find the source for that info?

It's just that the boost zenkai provides pales in comparison to what the strength of the Super Saiyan transformation can offer if you do the math.

[BluePiccolo]

It's just that the boost zenkai provides pales in comparison to what the strength of the Super Saiyan transformation can offer if you do the math.

Well I'm thinking about it, and for example:
In the Frieza saga, Vegeta asked Krillin to wound him close to killing him because saiyans that recover from near fatal wounds gain a massive power up.
(This is the exact line from the series, I'm not making it up, 100% canon)
The Zenkai boosts are there, throughout the namek saga, and saiyans make huge jumps in power levels.
I know that isn't much compared to a SSJ 50x boost, but a significant change in base power mixed with a SSJ multiplier will alternate the end result, a lot.

[irreality]

I feel like they sort of quietly got rid of Zenkai boosts after Namek.

[Darkprince410]

It's just that the boost zenkai provides pales in comparison to what the strength of the Super Saiyan transformation can offer if you do the math.

Well I'm thinking about it, and for example:
In the Freeza saga, Vegeta asked Krillin to wound him close to killing him because saiyans that recover from near fatal wounds gain a massive power up.
(This is the exact line from the series, I'm not making it up, 100% canon)
The Zenkai boosts are there, throughout the namek saga, and saiyans make huge jumps in power levels.
I know that isn't much compared to a SSJ 50x boost, but a significant change in base power mixed with a SSJ multiplier will alternate the end result, a lot.

From the Battle Power section of Daizenshuu 7:

What about the change in Goku’s battle power after that

Even after the battle with Freeza, formidable enemies surpassing human knowledge appeared one after the other to face Goku. Though the power-ups received after having wounds healed became small, Goku and co. began using transformations and fusions to increase their battle powers, to the point where they could no longer be measured numerically…

Small, in this context could mean small as in actual potency, infrequent, or just insufficient in comparison to growing stronger by other means.

[BluePiccolo]

It all just reeks of a huge inconsistency, like for example
Vegeta (namek saga) gets Zenkai 24k -> 30k. Next time the boost is in hundreds.
The proposed logic behind this is that the boost is equal to the strength of the opponent you're facing.
The genetic component in a Saiyan body is actively adapting to the challenge that was brought upon them from the last battle and rises up to it, that's how I understood Zenkai from various sources, and it made sense.
If their base power can increase so dramatically at one period of time (a few sagas), and a transformation is a multiplier, one would assume that the increase in base would be pretty significant.
All in all, as many other things in DB world, it's just inconsistencies that can't be rationalized that end up winning over the arguments will prevail.

[apex_pretador]

Can I just say something real quick, just a rant, totally on topic:

GOHAN recovers TWICE from NEAR FATAL wounds (0% - 100% HP).
NO ZENKAI BOOST WHATSOEVER?!
He should be beyond his mystic power IMO.

I think this can be explained by the fact that gohan is maxed out. No matter what he does, he can't surpass the power hehad in buu arc, it was the best he can ever get. So, even if zenkais increase his power a little bit in his base, it won't be anywhere near his full power (aka ultimate / mystic / Super saiyan).

[Puto]

Didn't Boo specifically tell Gohan he didn't get any stronger at all, back when Dende healed him during the Gohan-vs-Gotenks-absorbed-Boo fight?

[Neon Z]

It all just reeks of a huge inconsistency, like for example
Vegeta (namek saga) gets Zenkai 24k -> 30k. Next time the boost is in hundreds.
The proposed logic behind this is that the boost is equal to the strength of the opponent you're facing.
The genetic component in a Saiyan body is actively adapting to the challenge that was brought upon them from the last battle and rises up to it, that's how I understood Zenkai from various sources, and it made sense.
If their base power can increase so dramatically at one period of time (a few sagas), and a transformation is a multiplier, one would assume that the increase in base would be pretty significant.
All in all, as many other things in DB world, it's just inconsistencies that can't be rationalized that end up winning over the arguments will prevail.

The issue is that the Zenkai boost by itself is an inconsistency. Goku was almost killed by TaoPaiPai and Piccolo Daimao and yet received no boost after recovering from those battles, having to get power ups in other ways. It was clear that it soon ran out of control during Namek, so Toriyama basically ignored it afterwards, aside from using it once to give Cell a power up.

It was really an ill conceived idea from the start, IMO, that opened an unnecessarily large gap between the Saiyans and humans even before we got SSJ. Piccolo only kept up due to the Namek fusion, which came basically out of nowhere and was a much more limited resource.

[Draconic]

The way I view Zekai Boosts is that they don't work befoe the saiyan reaches maturity, explaining why Goku didn't get any during Dragon Ball, and that once he becomes a Super Saiyan the boosts are minimal at best, if not entirely nonexistent. Cell is an outlier, so he can't really be taken into account.

[Muffin Man]

The issue is that the Zenkai boost by itself is an inconsistency. Goku was almost killed by TaoPaiPai and Piccolo Daimao and yet received no boost after recovering from those battles, having to get power ups in other ways.

There's nothing saying he necessarily didn't get a boost after those fights, though. Goku could've gotten a boost that put him at Tao's level before climbing Korin's tower, and then training with Korin would've just boosted him on top of that, making him stronger than Tao. Same with King Piccolo. For all we know, Goku could've gotten a boost that put him on level with King Piccolo's old form, then the Super Holy Water would've put him on level with King Piccolo's young form.


As for Zenkais after Super Saiyan, my theory there is that Zenkais are a result of the Saiyan body undergoing a sort of metamorphosis in order to "perfect" itself. Once Super Saiyan is achieved, the body has completed the metamorphosis and Zenkais no longer occur. Any further boosts must be achieved through Super Saiyan transformations, which are similar to Zenkais except that they do not occur naturally.

[apex_pretador]

The issue is that the Zenkai boost by itself is an inconsistency. Goku was almost killed by TaoPaiPai and Piccolo Daimao and yet received no boost after recovering from those battles, having to get power ups in other ways. It was clear that it soon ran out of control during Namek, so Toriyama basically ignored it afterwards, aside from using it once to give Cell a power up.

It was really an ill conceived idea from the start, IMO, that opened an unnecessarily large gap between the Saiyans and humans even before we got SSJ. Piccolo only kept up due to the Namek fusion, which came basically out of nowhere and was a much more limited resource.

He did get zenkai boosts after these fights. On namek, zenkais were ridiculous plot device, especially the one which puts goku from below ginyu to above vegeta

[BluePiccolo]

As for Zenkais after Super Saiyan, my theory there is that Zenkais are a result of the Saiyan body undergoing a sort of metamorphosis in order to "perfect" itself. Once Super Saiyan is achieved, the body has completed the metamorphosis and Zenkais no longer occur. Any further boosts must be achieved through Super Saiyan transformations, which are similar to Zenkais except that they do not occur naturally.

That's a great theory! You should make a topic so we can discuss freely and see what others think about it?

[Chillekasper]

I dont understand how they could make Gohan this weak...
In the end of DBZ agains Super-Buu, Gohan was the strongest z-fighter.
What role will they gave to Gohan?
Will he unlock more of his power or will he be like Yamcha?

[buutenks]

I dont understand how they could make Gohan this weak...
In the end of DBZ agains Super-Buu, Gohan was the strongest z-fighter.
What role will they gave to Gohan?
Will he unlock more of his power or will he be like Yamcha?

How is gohan this weak?Also this is years after the buu saga ^^.Or you mean weak compared to beerus and freeza?Well both of them are absurdly powerful.

if u dont count beerus and freeza,dont give goku god abilities and vegeta that training,he's still proly the most powerful ^^granted he did got weaker over the years,so perhaps ssj3 goku might have catched up.

[Kaboom]

So since this thread is still more or less active... Can anyone who's been keeping track be so kind as to list the important new feats and statements about Gohan's power? Not just regarding how he stacks up to other people, but how his power "works" now.

I'm trying to figure out what the new movies and Super have said about the relationship between his base, Super Saiyan, and "ultimate" forms, and see if I can put it all together into something halfway cohesive. Depending on the result, it may suit my fanfic better than what I had planned. But even that aside, it'd be nice to have some semblance of a concrete picture to work with.

[apex_pretador]

So since this thread is still more or less active... Can anyone who's been keeping track be so kind as to list the important new feats and statements about Gohan's power? Not just regarding how he stacks up to other people, but how his power "works" now.

I'm trying to figure out what the new movies and Super have said about the relationship between his base, Super Saiyan, and "ultimate" forms, and see if I can put it all together into something halfway cohesive. Depending on the result, it may suit my fanfic better than what I had planned. But even that aside, it'd be nice to have some semblance of a concrete picture to work with.

IMO, it works like this:

Piccolo - 75,000
Base gohan - 80,000
SS gohan - 400,000
Unweighted piccolo / perfect cell - 85,000
Kid buu - 300,000
Super buu - 450,000
First form freeza - 530,000
Ultimate gohan - 500,000
Golden freeza - 120,000,000

Reason being the fact that gohan thought that he might have been stronger than 1st form freeza if he trained like goku.

[Chillekasper]

So since this thread is still more or less active... Can anyone who's been keeping track be so kind as to list the important new feats and statements about Gohan's power? Not just regarding how he stacks up to other people, but how his power "works" now.

I'm trying to figure out what the new movies and Super have said about the relationship between his base, Super Saiyan, and "ultimate" forms, and see if I can put it all together into something halfway cohesive. Depending on the result, it may suit my fanfic better than what I had planned. But even that aside, it'd be nice to have some semblance of a concrete picture to work with.

IMO, it works like this:

Piccolo - 75,000
Base gohan - 80,000
SS gohan - 400,000
Unweighted piccolo / perfect cell - 85,000
Kid buu - 300,000
Super buu - 450,000
First form freeza - 530,000
Ultimate gohan - 500,000
Golden freeza - 120,000,000

Reason being the fact that gohan thought that he might have been stronger than 1st form freeza if he trained like goku.

Is it posible that Gohan will get back his mystic power in Super and maybe get stronger than that?

[apex_pretador]

So since this thread is still more or less active... Can anyone who's been keeping track be so kind as to list the important new feats and statements about Gohan's power? Not just regarding how he stacks up to other people, but how his power "works" now.

I'm trying to figure out what the new movies and Super have said about the relationship between his base, Super Saiyan, and "ultimate" forms, and see if I can put it all together into something halfway cohesive. Depending on the result, it may suit my fanfic better than what I had planned. But even that aside, it'd be nice to have some semblance of a concrete picture to work with.

IMO, it works like this:

Piccolo - 75,000
Base gohan - 80,000
SS gohan - 400,000
Unweighted piccolo / perfect cell - 85,000
Kid buu - 300,000
Super buu - 450,000
First form freeza - 530,000
Ultimate gohan - 500,000
Golden freeza - 120,000,000

Reason being the fact that gohan thought that he might have been stronger than 1st form freeza if he trained like goku.

Is it posible that Gohan will get back his mystic power in Super and maybe get stronger than that?

it is possible for him to reach his ultimate self, but I doubt he'll surpass it.


I'd rather have piccolo & humans have a powerup

[ZombieVito]

So since this thread is still more or less active... Can anyone who's been keeping track be so kind as to list the important new feats and statements about Gohan's power? Not just regarding how he stacks up to other people, but how his power "works" now.

I'm trying to figure out what the new movies and Super have said about the relationship between his base, Super Saiyan, and "ultimate" forms, and see if I can put it all together into something halfway cohesive. Depending on the result, it may suit my fanfic better than what I had planned. But even that aside, it'd be nice to have some semblance of a concrete picture to work with.

Gohan is said to be stronger than Piccolo without Super Saiyan.
Tagoma's hiding power was said to rival Gohan at his best.
Ginyu calls Gohan's power puny and extremely disappointing.
Ginyu is impressed Gohan had that much power hidden when he turns Super Saiyan.
Gohan can't maintain his Super Saiyan power for long.

That's all I think. I personally believe Gohan's Super Saiyan form now serves as a compensation for him not training and helps him use his mystic power. That is the only logical way I can see him not being able to use Super Saiyan for long since his 10 year self could sleep with the form with no problems. Hell after 7 years of no training he still did not get weaker and used Super Saiyan just fine.

[Chillekasper]

So since this thread is still more or less active... Can anyone who's been keeping track be so kind as to list the important new feats and statements about Gohan's power? Not just regarding how he stacks up to other people, but how his power "works" now.

I'm trying to figure out what the new movies and Super have said about the relationship between his base, Super Saiyan, and "ultimate" forms, and see if I can put it all together into something halfway cohesive. Depending on the result, it may suit my fanfic better than what I had planned. But even that aside, it'd be nice to have some semblance of a concrete picture to work with.

Gohan is said to be stronger than Piccolo without Super Saiyan.
Tagoma's hiding power was said to rival Gohan at his best.
Ginyu calls Gohan's power puny and extremely disappointing.
Ginyu is impressed Gohan had that much power hidden when he turns Super Saiyan.
Gohan can't maintain his Super Saiyan power for long.

That's all I think. I personally believe Gohan's Super Saiyan form now serves as a compensation for him not training and helps him use his mystic power. That is the only logical way I can see him not being able to use Super Saiyan for long since his 10 year self could sleep with the form with no problems. Hell after 7 years of no training he still did not get weaker and used Super Saiyan just fine.

I think he lost his mystic power or cant use it anymore. Thats why he transform into Super Saiyan, but I dont understand why he cant keep that long that state. Maybe because its compasating that Gohan cant become mystic?