Your Problem(s) with DragonBall Super

[PsionicWarrior]

I could make a complete list but I've done it too many times in this forum already.

Would you mind linking these posts you've made? I'd be interested in reading them.

Look there is plenty to enjoy in super if you like that kind of thing but there is plenty that makes it a much technically lesser version of its predecessors.

I wonder who would disagree here though.

[Neo-Makaiōshin]

@saiyanvegetable ^ more truth. Just dropping truth bombs everywhere in here I see.

That's only if you think that your parameters are the universal meter of quality control. Moreover, opinion =/= fact.

[Ajay]

You did not watch the show, that's all.

In my country the JoJo manga is serialized the same time as Japan (a risky move, but we always did so, in Italy) since 1993.
So my copies are, by chances, older than someone, here.
Western people reducing the whole TV adaptation to a meme grind it's somehow sad on my side.
Well...
It's underrated.
No one discuss about quality, only about the damned memes, but in fact no other show can today compare for sheer quality.
Music, animation, everything stand out. It's look like an OVA.

JoJo TV series had to be quoted like the best series so far. A project that sound impossible was done. Who could have think to reproduce so accurately a complex style, with so many details, in a long lasting TV show?

My concern is: if THAT is possible, why not apply it to other franchises?
There's no excuse like "no money" or "no tech". JoJo it's a weekly show the same.

Dragon ball super = Toei need characters for games = go to ask Toriyama do a plot in his sparetime.
It's not about doing anime.

I only just caught this, and yet I wish I wouldn't have. Beyond being borderline incomprehensible, you're also daring to question whether I actually watched the show I'm talking about? C'mon now. Don't be an asshole.

I'm not entirely sure what any of your message has to do with what I said. You're rambling about memes and spouting nonsense about the show's quality. Stop it. Jojo's one of my favourite series of all time, but I'm not going to pretend it's somehow particularly well animated. It's well directed, well storyboarded, and its artwork is absolutely gorgeous, but it is not even remotely close to being well animated. As I said, it primarily stills and digital trickery. That's not necessarily the worst thing in the world with Jojo. It gets by on style alone, which is wonderful, but that's not going to work in a show like Dragon Ball that requires heavily animated action sequences. It's just not. It's the wrong type of show to take that approach with.

Moreover, Jojo is absolutely not a comparable show to Super in terms of production. It is not a weekly anime in the same way that Super is. It has a finite number of episodes, airs in the evening, and has had months on months of pre-production. It's an entirely different beast. You cannot compare the two. Being longer than 12 or 24 episodes doesn't push it into the realms of shows like One Piece and Dragon Ball, despite what a lot of people think. The production environment is still vastly different.

It's fine to be critical of Super's shoddy production -- I criticise it all of the time -- but at least do it from an informed and fair perspective. You can't cherry pick shots from two shows and pretend that says anything worthwhile. I could easily reverse what you initially said and go, "Wow, who drew this in Jojo? Looks like shit! Look at Super, it's got amazingly detailed drawings!" We both know that's not realistic nor fair to either show. It's not how you criticise animation, so let's maybe not do that.

I feel like you're taking my objective observations as some damning criticism of Jojo when that's absolutely not the case at all. Jojo is great; it really is. As you said, its music is wonderful, its performances are great, and visually, it works for the type of story Jojo is. That said, let's at least be realistic about what's going on there and not resort to hyperbole for the sake of making a point. That's not really helpful for anyone.

[TheMikado]

I could make a complete list but I've done it too many times in this forum already.

Would you mind linking these posts you've made? I'd be interested in reading them.

Look there is plenty to enjoy in super if you like that kind of thing but there is plenty that makes it a much technically lesser version of its predecessors.

I wonder who would disagree here though.

Here's a good one but it sums it up nicely for me:

The reason DBZ is so awesome for me personally is the tension and hard won improvement.

You see characters training for months/years at a time. Even Goku's training in space. You felt the hard won progress that was still only miniscule by comparison. Then to have it come to fruition in desperate time of need was so much more rewarding and fulfilling.
What added to this is that we had an idea of how strong characters were and how far they had come and how far they still needed to go. The fights and arcs were not vacuums. We had a contextual understanding of the journey our main characters endured. When you do things like giving fodder enemies 100,000% power boosts in 4 months after our characters endured struggles for years on end with emotional absorptions, transformations, (Piccolo had two emotional absorptions/training and still gets jobbed for all his hard work...) literally years of it both in-universe and in real world time and then having it taken away by a sentence that belittles everything you suffered through along with your favorite characters together, then yes. It diminishes their entire story and their journey and the narrative as a whole. Even retroactively destroying it as some fans felt about the Beerus-Planet Vegeta reveal. Everyone takes something different from their favorite series, so it stands to reason that some fans would feel that the inconsistent power levels which to them represent a characters entire journey, at taken with irreverence and diminishes the stories they love.

[Kakarotto92]

The fights itself are awful in super the only good fight in it was goku Vs hit and vegeta Vs magetta every other fight has been mediocre or flat-out awful

SSG Goku vs Beerus and Vegeta vs Cabbe were arguably as good as those 2 fights you mentioned.

[Krillin1994]

generic small ki blasts feel weird in this series, kind of like there isn't any driving force between them. The ones in the Goku vs Frieza fight were the worst offenders

[PsionicWarrior]

The reason DBZ is so awesome for me personally is the tension and hard won improvement.

You see characters training for months/years at a time. Even Goku's training in space. You felt the hard won progress that was still only miniscule by comparison. Then to have it come to fruition in desperate time of need was so much more rewarding and fulfilling.
What added to this is that we had an idea of how strong characters were and how far they had come and how far they still needed to go. The fights and arcs were not vacuums. We had a contextual understanding of the journey our main characters endured. When you do things like giving fodder enemies 100,000% power boosts in 4 months after our characters endured struggles for years on end with emotional absorptions, transformations, (Piccolo had two emotional absorptions/training and still gets jobbed for all his hard work...) literally years of it both in-universe and in real world time and then having it taken away by a sentence that belittles everything you suffered through along with your favorite characters together, then yes. It diminishes their entire story and their journey and the narrative as a whole. Even retroactively destroying it as some fans felt about the Beerus-Planet Vegeta reveal. Everyone takes something different from their favorite series, so it stands to reason that some fans would feel that the inconsistent power levels which to them represent a characters entire journey, at taken with irreverence and diminishes the stories they love.

Thanks, I have to admit I never truly got all that happens with power levels, I do find God-Ki a bit off, but honestly do not quite know what to think of it.

[TheMikado]

I actually really hate it. In BOG I'm thinking if Beerus had just woken the F up year ago most of this mess and planet/universe destruction stuff could be avoided. Especially since you know it was his JOB to keep his universe in order as a God. Then we get the reveal that Beerus ordered Frieza to destroy Planet Vegeta which makes Beerus seem even more petty given the level the Saiyans are at collectively power wise. I get the first of the SSG thing but it wasn't like the SSG was more powerful than Beerus anyway. Plus Beerus and Whis have been around for 75 million years, apparently also killing the dinosaurs so I would think he would at least have an idea or someone they talk to know how strong the SSG actually was. Anyway it makes all their battles and struggles much smaller in scale and almost meaningless. You could argue the same as what DBZ did to DB but DB was always about adventure, not stakes and shonen until close to the end of the series.

[Freeza9000]

Mainly Goku being way more childlike and stupid than he actually is, and how the writers are going out of their way (initially) to make Vegeta constantly upstage Goku (an example which I posted in an earlier thread was right before Vegeta beat up Freeza, when he said "I'm not as naive as he is", only to zoom in on the gang's face when he said that). Vegeta's characterization with the whole Saiyan pride thing against Cabbe is ridiculous as well considering he doesn't care about them. The person who places the music at points in the episode has no sense of how to do so and how to build appropriate tension either (though I felt last ep did not do this, I thought it was great). Better audio designer is needed too. Also, about the new color designer, thank God, the other guy was horrible. Sunrise's anime always has beautiful colors.

Although I do agree with you on almost everything you said, I do see great character development in the Vegeta v. Cabbe fight. We actually see that Vegeta was actually willing to train a stranger Saiyan after hearing about Cabbe's speech about saving others in his universe. This actually showed a sympathetic side to Vegeta's character that Z hasn't already shown us. I'm quite certain that the old Vegeta from Z would never bring himself to do that due to his silly pride.

[TekTheNinja]

Beerus and Whis have been around for 75 million years, apparently also killing the dinosaurs

Which still makes no sense because dinosaurs are still around in Dragon Ball.

[buutenks]

My problem with Super is that it's one episode a week, and now I need to wait 2 weeks .

I have no intention to defend Super I know that it has many flaws, and sometimes bad animation. And I know that there are people who are bothered by the power ups, and only Goku and Vegeta becoming so strong.

I myself am glad they continued DBZ. One can only watch the same show so many times, after which becomes boring. So seeing new material is refreshing. Plus, since it's a series, I have no issues with its quality or how characters are handled. Since it's not a movie, it has time. While a movie, it's 1 and half hours and done.

And as long as Super will show new things, new enemies, new adventures I will enjoy it. Doesn't matter if Goku is the strongest in the arc, or Vegeta or if they resurrect freaking Nappa and make him the strongest (tho I would like Raditz to come back and turn into Super Saiyan 1 Million ^^).

[Baggie_Saiyan]

The promise of new material allowed me to slug through the Freeza re-telling which felt like hell. Then as soon as the U6 arc was getting going, boom a recap episode, from them decisions made in the arc, Super began pissing me off big time to the point I got turned off from the franchise and would hardly visit Kanzenshuu anymore, but I don't have anything better do on a Saturday night (well I guess early Sunday morning technically) so I'd keep watching in hopes it would get better and lo it did.

From the moment Vegeta used final flash, Super took a turning point for me and then that SSGSS KK moment watching filled me up with such joy, all the past troubles with Super were forgotten, this is how I wanted to feel watching a new DB series (albeit in a different language). Post U6 episodes were very enjoyable and the Trunks arc everything as improved considerably, form the animation to even the music! There are still a few discrepancies that annoy me like Pilaf and the cheesy music form Super's past but there few and far between. Today there will be no episode and I am feeling sad, few months back I wouldn't have cared keep at it Toei

[TekTheNinja]

Mike from laughingstock media posted this the other day and it highlights what is my main problem with super pretty well. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jmA1xyUx34s

[Alee9977]

There are a lot of things that I don't like of Super but the majority of those things got better with the progression of the show, things like animation, fights or story aren't a problem for me right now.
The way how they handle old DBZ characters is the major problem for me.
Also the characters personality and maybe the humor, there are a lot of scenes that try to be funny but they end up being really stupid.
I never had any problems with the soundtrack, I really like it, also how they use the newest characters, and how they show us that there are a lot of people stronger than Goku or Vegeta, seems there is a long way to and I really enjoy watching Super, I get excited with every episode

[omaro34]

I think everyone around here that have seen my posts already know what my biggest issue of Super is, and that is the character usage. Don't get me wrong, I love the majority of the newer characters such as Beerus, Whis, Champa, and Vados (especially Beerus, I'm starting to like him more and more), but the main original cast have really been pushed aside.

1) When I first saw that new poster for the U6 Arc, I really was excited. I was never excited for Dragonball like that in so many years. Seeing Buu and Piccolo as 2 of the fighters selected brought a huge smile to my face. But what has become of Majin Buu so far in Super? He's no doubt one of the strongest Z fighters out there after Goku and Vegeta, and they completely casted him aside. I was so disappointed when he didn't participate in the tournament at all due to a stupid reason like falling asleep which annoyed the heck out of me, I really wanted to see Buu fight Botamo.

2) Piccolo has been my favorite character in the series for decades. He always has, and he always will be. His fight with Goku in the 23rd tournament is still my fav fight in the series. But he has contributed and done FAR too much in this entire series to be reduced to what he has been thus far in Super. His fight with Frost was great and all, but when he forfeited the match just to satisfy Vegeta's pride, it really rubbed me off the wrong way. After that March 6 episode was when I realized they set this whole thing up just for Goku and Vegeta to take out everybody on U6 (I already had my doubts on Monaka at that point). I literally took a break from Super for several weeks after that Piccolo vs Frost episode. They can easily write out a story to give him a power boost, I mean they have so many things to work with such as fusing with other strong Namekians, the book of legends, training with Whis using the mind (which is right up Piccolo's alley), etc. Now watching Piccolo do gardening work and clean up yards with Krillin is basically the signal for me to give up hope that Piccolo would ever do something meaningful in the series again.

3) Gotenks has become comic relief, which is sad given how strong he is. His appearance against Tagoma was blasphemous because the fusion ran out as soon as he got there, which didn't make much sense. Then his fight with Copy Vegeta was a joke as well. He has become fodder, which is now a reality.

4) I have already vented on Gohan, don't get me started with him.

5) I don't expect guys like Tien, Yamcha, and Krillin to do anything meaningful from a strength standpoint. But watching them present and just watch Goku save the day is getting boring. I would rather have them not even there, to be honest.

5) The retellings of BOG and ROF were long, annoying, time consuming, and a chore to watch. They should have never spent so much time doing them, really. Vegeta magically obtaining blue form without any real explanation and justification in the ROF Arc annoyed me as well because it's lazy writing.

6) I leave you all with this newer video from one of the Dragonball Youtubers Laughingstock Media, and he has the same beliefs as me.

Link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jmA1xyU ... stockMedia

[perucho1990]

The only issues I find are the art and animation sometimes being inconsistant.

I'm fine with the character usage, because the whole thing of using all of ur support characters doesnt work.

It didnt work in One Piece Dressrosa arc, which turned into be a mess, its even worse in Bleach when the MC is treated like a side character!.

[Alee9977]

I wonder if people from toei or toriyama's family or somebody really close to the DB production visit forums like this so they can know if people like what they are doing in the series or not.
I mean, we got a lot of fanservice during the show so maybe if we keep complaining they will change some things .
Well, this is something that is likely not to happen, I'm sure that toriyama is the man that has the last word so what people at toei think about the show doesn't really matter.

[sintzu]

I'm sure that toriyama is the man that has the last word so what people at Toei think about the show doesn't really matter.

Toriyama just writes the plot(s), the writing and production is all from Toei.

[SSJ Human]

1. I want Gohan to get focus despite not being a fighter which is something I know the franchise is capable of doing as it has done in the past with multiple other characters.

2. The retellings made the earlier episodes nearly unwatchable to me since I had seen the movies and yearned for some original material.

3. Killing off characters that have died multiple times. At this point death isn't even a big deal and now is just annoying.

[StrawHatPatriot]

[*]The retellings of the movies were bad.

[*]And Universe 6 felt rushed, and almost useless, even if it was enjoyable to watch at the time.

[*]But most of all, I hate, HATE, HATE what they did personality-wise to Videl and Android 18. Videl is a fucking robot now, which is sad because she used to be spunky and epic.

I also dislike how they won't even make #18 get involved - if Master Roshi and Krillin can fight in Resurrection F, and Picillo can still fight (even as fodder), then I don't see why #18 - whose personality is a nice contrast from the rest btw - can't.

Other than that, I'm enjoying DB Super. I'm still mad about Videl tho. I'm not even saying they need to make her fight (she's a human afterall), just don't make her have the personality of damp towel.