DBZ vs DBS - Animation [Comparing Objectively]

[Yomi]

Please allow all images time to fully load, and look at them individually start to finish before making a reply.
That way the discussion will have more context.

It seems that animation is always something that comes into the conversation. Several people say that if you appreciate Super's animation.
your standards for animation is mediocre; And Super's animation can never hold a candle to Z's. So I decided to put that claim to the test.
Of course I don't have the answer for you, find your own answer and write it as a reply. I hope this does not turn into an argument but a reasonable debate.

Note: These are just small snippets of the bigger picture. Of course there are tons more horribly animated and beautifully animated scenes in each show. But it would take
a really long time to collect all that Data, so I'm just going by a small sample that is easy to digest.

Let's start off with the poorly animated scenes I noticed in Z.
[spoiler]



[/spoiler]
^
There was more, but since most of DBZ was pan and zooms on still frames, it would just equate to screenshots anyway.

Now let's look at the horrible episode that started it all. Episode 5's TV release. The episode that ruined Dragon Ball forever for a lot of people.
Since this episode is so important, let's look at the Bad, the Worst, and the Ugly.

[spoiler]





[/spoiler]

Now we'll see how SSJ3 goku fights in DBZ, and sprinkle in some iconic moments. Without the Bruce Faulconer, the Atmosphere, Sound Effects, and Nostalgia,
How does it stand up. No Re-Releases, No HD boxsets, no Remasters, no Kai.

[spoiler]





[/spoiler]

Now let's look at the best Super has offered in it's 1st year of broadcast. We'll use the TV release.
[spoiler]




[/spoiler]

[Lujin_16]

Quality is the same as back then some bad some good and some great animation but many fans will never accept the truth hmm it has to do with nostalgia

[Lujin_16]

You have forget about SSB Goku Kaioken vs Hit or Black Goku vs Trunks they have a great animation

[Luso Saiyan]

It's called selective memory and complete lack of understanding of the whole process. When people dissect in-between frames and are completely oblivious to its purpose, there's nothing more to be said.

[HybridSaiyan]

About 7 of the first set of DBZ gifs are animated well. I don't see any poorness in quality with them. The blows and dodging feel a lot more realistic than Supers.

[Lujin_16]

About 7 of the first set of DBZ gifs are animated well. I don't see any poorness in quality with them. The blows and dodging feel a lot more realistic than Supers.

What do you mean with realistic???

[HybridSaiyan]

About 7 of the first set of DBZ gifs are animated well. I don't see any poorness in quality with them. The blows and dodging feel a lot more realistic than Supers.

What do you mean with realistic???

When the punch, kick actually make contact? I know the Goku vs Cell gif was an example of poor animation, but take the SSJ3 Goku punching Fat Buu, I don't know about you but I felt the sheer force and power of Goku throwing in his multiple gut shots.
Same when Gohan and Cells fist collided with each other.

Meh, I just prefer how the fights were handled in Z with the constant repeating frames of a character dodgying. Don't know if i make much sense here. lol

[Yomi]

Meh, I just prefer how the fights were handled in Z with the constant repeating frames of a character dodgying. Don't know if i make much sense here. lol

The deep impact, the screen shake. Buu's delayed reaction. It's a fine piece of work.
I was just wasn't too fond of the lack of inbetweens. I see where you're coming from.

[Ajay]

Episode 5 wasn't the worst. Episode 24 was, and it was terrible. Episode 5's second half is actually passable. Z's worsts come from those Uchiyama episodes in the middle of Cell arc. Everything looked absolutely terrible for quite a significant stretch.

I take issue with your picks for "Super's best". Episode 13 was on-model, but aside from that Takahashi cut at the end, it was robotic and not even inbetweened. Not entirely sure why you've used so many gifs from that episode.

Super's best:

Episode 14 - Ryo Onishi - Goku vs Beerus
Episode 26 - Naoki Tate - Goku vs Golden Freeza
Episode 2 - Yuki Hayashi - Alien vs Dinosaur
Episode 13 - Yuya Takahashi - Goku vs Beerus
Episode 47 - Naoki Tate - Trunks Sword Deflection
Episode 48 - Futoshi Higashida - Trunks vs Black

Super's had some pretty cool highs. They're few and far between, but they're pretty nice.

Here's the thing with Dragon Ball Z - it was never a particularly well-animated show, even for its time. The repeating frames that we've come to call "Dragon Ball Fighting™" are actually just really standard conservative animation used in shows since forever. It's nothing special. Z wasn't all about that, it actually had plenty of really cool moments that featured cool character movement, interesting camera work, and hugely detailed character art -- the latter of which was the series' strongest point by a landslide.

Episode 31 - Kazuya Hisada - Kaioken Goku vs Vegeta
Episode 64 - Masaki Satou - Vegeta vs Reacoom
Episode 232 - Tadayoshi Yamamuro - SSJ2 Goku vs Majin Vegeta
Episode 166 - Kazuya Hisada - SSJ Goku vs SSJ Gohan
Episode 103 - Masahiro Shimanuki - SSJ Goku vs Freeza

Lots of interesting stuff in there that doesn't just become nothing but conservative action. Whether you think that's as interesting as Super's highs is up to you. Z really shone in the movies, but that wouldn't be a particularly fair comparison.

Uchiyama and Ebisawa are supervisors that get rightly criticised for their awful style, but the animators underneath them were very good. Uchiyama had Tai'cihiro Ohara, and Ebisawa had Toshiyuki Kanno. Despite heavy corrections, their episodes still had plenty of good work within them. Kanno eventually started taking a lead role once it was clear he was significantly better than Ebisawa.

Even during downtime, Z's pristine character art by a large majority of supervisors carried episodes to higher standards than they really deserved. It's same way that Jojo's Bizarre Adventure Part 4 isn't a show that has much movement or proper animation, but its pristine character art and solid direction carries it quite high. While you can't always rely on that in a martial arts show like Dragon Ball, otherwise you might as well read a manga, it does certainly help create some striking imagery if used properly.

Super's major issue right now is its schedule and lack of talented key animators. It means that the talents that do pop up often don't have time to do anything worthwhile, or are forced to rush out work that looks unrefined. It means that episodes are always making compromises -- do we focus all our attention on the action and let the dialogue scenes suffer (#50), or do we try and balance it out and end up with a reasonably consistent episode (#48)? Sometimes nothing works and you end up with episodes like 24 where absolutely nothing works at all. Toei's current way of rectifying the situation is to have multiple supervisors and assistants in an attempt to apply polish to the entire episode. It's a horrible situation to be in and I feel really bad for everyone involved.

If Super's production environment was even remotely healthy then it would absolutely, without a shadow of a doubt, be significantly better animated than the previous series. It might not feature the best aesthetics thanks to Yamamuro's character designs, the horrendous colour design, and total lack of atmosphere, but it'd at least showcase the refined talents that are working on this show. You only have to take a few looks over at quality and frequency of One Piece's best moments to see how feasible that is. Super has only just reached a point where it can deliver conservative fights that don't look absolutely tragic.

Unfortunately, as it stands, Dragon Ball Z is still the better show. Great character designs, talents with time to draw them well, and some pretty interesting fights on the regular. Super is only 50 episodes in, and is only just starting to find its feet. It's slowly working out how best to deal with its situation. It's hard to say how it'll evolve over the next year, but I hope it'll keep improving and eventually give us the visuals it really needs. Optimistic, but I suppose we'll see. Don't think it'll change my other issues with the show, but that's a topic for another time.

[shomangaka]

I do have to say they were a lot more creative when it comes to fight choreography in DB and DBZ than they have been in Super.

[Shuby]

Episode 5 wasn't the worst. Episode 24 was, and it was terrible. Episode 5's second half is actually passable. Z's worsts come from those Uchiyama episodes in the middle of Cell arc. Everything looked absolutely terrible for quite a significant stretch.

I take issue with your picks for "Super's best". Episode 13 was on-model, but aside from that Takahashi cut at the end, it was robotic and not even inbetweened. Not entirely sure why you've used so many gifs from that episode.

Super's best:

Episode 14 - Ryo Onishi - Goku vs Beerus
Episode 26 - Naoki Tate - Goku vs Golden Freeza
Episode 2 - Yuki Hayashi - Alien vs Dinosaur
Episode 13 - Yuya Takahashi - Goku vs Beerus
Episode 47 - Naoki Tate - Trunks Sword Deflection
Episode 48 - Futoshi Higashida - Trunks vs Black

Super's had some pretty cool highs. They're few and far between, but they're pretty nice.

Here's the thing with Dragon Ball Z - it was never a particularly well-animated show, even for its time. The repeating frames that we've come to call "Dragon Ball Fighting™" are actually just really standard conservative animation used in shows since forever. It's nothing special. Z wasn't all about that, it actually had plenty of really cool moments that featured cool character movement, interesting camera work, and hugely detailed character art -- the latter of which was the series' strongest point by a landslide.

Episode 31 - Kazuya Hisada - Kaioken Goku vs Vegeta
Episode 64 - Masaki Satou - Vegeta vs Reacoom
Episode 232 - Tadayoshi Yamamuro - SSJ2 Goku vs Majin Vegeta
Episode 166 - Kazuya Hisada - SSJ Goku vs SSJ Gohan
Episode 103 - Masahiro Shimanuki - SSJ Goku vs Freeza

Lots of interesting stuff in there that doesn't just become nothing but conservative action. Whether you think that's as interesting as Super's highs is up to you. Z really shone in the movies, but that wouldn't be a particularly fair comparison.

Uchiyama and Ebisawa are supervisors that get rightly criticised for their awful style, but the animators underneath them were very good. Uchiyama had Tai'cihiro Ohara, and Ebisawa had Toshiyuki Kanno. Despite heavy corrections, their episodes still had plenty of good work within them. Kanno eventually started taking a lead role once it was clear he was significantly better than Ebisawa.

Even during downtime, Z's pristine character art by a large majority of supervisors carried episodes to higher standards than they really deserved. It's same way that Jojo's Bizarre Adventure Part 4 isn't a show that has much movement or proper animation, but its pristine character art and solid direction carries it quite high. While you can't always rely on that in a martial arts show like Dragon Ball, otherwise you might as well read a manga, it does certainly help create some striking imagery if used properly.

Super's major issue right now is its schedule and lack of talented key animators. It means that the talents that do pop up often don't have time to do anything worthwhile, or are forced to rush out work that looks unrefined. It means that episodes are always making compromises -- do we focus all our attention on the action and let the dialogue scenes suffer (#50), or do we try and balance it out and end up with a reasonably consistent episode (#48)? Sometimes nothing works and you end up with episodes like 24 where absolutely nothing works at all. Toei's current way of rectifying the situation is to have multiple supervisors and assistants in an attempt to apply polish to the entire episode. It's a horrible situation to be in and I feel really bad for everyone involved.

If Super's production environment was even remotely healthy then it would absolutely, without a shadow of a doubt, be significantly better animated than the previous series. It might not feature the best aesthetics thanks to Yamamuro's character designs, the horrendous colour design, and total lack of atmosphere, but it'd at least showcase the refined talents that are working on this show. You only have to take a few looks over at quality and frequency of One Piece's best moments to see how feasible that is. Super has only just reached a point where it can deliver conservative fights that don't look absolutely tragic.

Unfortunately, as it stands, Dragon Ball Z is still the better show. Great character designs, talents with time to draw them well, and some pretty interesting fights on the regular. Super is only 50 episodes in, and is only just starting to find its feet. It's slowly working out how best to deal with its situation. It's hard to say how it'll evolve over the next year, but I hope it'll keep improving and eventually give us the visuals it really needs. Optimistic, but I suppose we'll see. Don't think it'll change my other issues with the show, but that's a topic for another time.

True but that's all Toei's fault and i feel like you can't blame fans who don't understand the how the production works because most modern anime shows blow away what Super has to offer in terms of fight choreographs and nice animation even for a running series like Naruto or bleach https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MKygGsHEmiw , and you would think a franchise as popular as Dragon ball would get more attention and care. On the other hand i don't think the fights in Super will be quite remembered and have the same impact Z had with few exceptions for expample Hit vs Goku , a lot of fights especially in the Golden Frieza arc feel lifeless.

[Shuby]

While Z never was a particular good animated show i think it made up for it for having memorable and awesome fights that fans enjoy still today. With Super a lot of the fights feel lifeless not as impactfull as Z.
Let's say majority Golden Frieza arc.
Goku vs Botomo and
Goku vs Frost
etc etc.
Even now Goku vs Black while good animated it did not feel impact full as Z fights have been.

[Ajay]

True but that's all Toei's fault and i feel like you can't blame fans who don't understand the how the production works because most modern anime shows blow away what Super has to offer in terms of fight choreographs and nice animation even for a running series like Naruto and you would think a franchise as popular as Dragon ball would get more attention and care. On the other hand i don't think the fights in Super will be quite remembered and have the same impact Z had with few exceptions for expample Hit vs Goku , a lot of fights especially in the Golden Frieza arc feel lifeless.

It's not solely Toei's fault. If Shueisha want a new TV show, then Toei kinda have to listen to them, even if their studio isn't in the right place to do it properly. It's easy to point the finger, but Toei are doing everything they can with this awful situation. Whether you agree with the patchwork fixes or not is a more interesting conversation to have than the, say, "Toei sucks, give the show to Madhouse!" rhetoric that gets thrown around.

I wasn't pointing the finger at anyone in my post, but I absolutely can blame fans if their complaints come from a misunderstanding of what's going on with the series, or even how the series functions compared to other anime. It's absolutely fine to compare to Super to Naruto, One Piece, and Fairy Tail -- those are all shows that run all year round. What I can't abide are those who talk about Hunter x Hunter, One-Punch Man, or Fate. They're totally different production environments; you just can't compare them.

I try and inform people about Super's production because it actually produces interesting conversation. That's far more beneficial that overblown hyperbole from upset fans who don't understand why things are the way they are. If you're running around screaming "Toei don't give a shit, the animators don't care, this is awful", then you're doing something wrong. It's possible to criticise the show from an informed point of view, and that's all I ever ask.

Super's a really poorly put together series. It really is. I'm not ever going to pretend it isn't, but I'm not willing to talk about it shrouded in hyperbole and misinformation. God knows there's enough of that in this fandom already.

[Shuby]

True but that's all Toei's fault and i feel like you can't blame fans who don't understand the how the production works because most modern anime shows blow away what Super has to offer in terms of fight choreographs and nice animation even for a running series like Naruto and you would think a franchise as popular as Dragon ball would get more attention and care. On the other hand i don't think the fights in Super will be quite remembered and have the same impact Z had with few exceptions for expample Hit vs Goku , a lot of fights especially in the Golden Frieza arc feel lifeless.

It's not solely Toei's fault. If Shueisha want a new TV show, then Toei kinda have to listen to them, even if their studio isn't in the right place to do it properly. It's easy to point the finger, but Toei are doing everything they can with this awful situation. Whether you agree with the patchwork fixes or not is a more interesting conversation to have than the, say, "Toei sucks, give the show to Madhouse!" rhetoric that gets thrown around.

I wasn't pointing the finger at anyone in my post, but I absolutely can blame fans if their complaints come from a misunderstanding of what's going on with the series, or even how the series functions compared to other anime. It's absolutely fine to compare to Super to Naruto, One Piece, and Fairy Tail -- those are all shows that run all year round. What I can't abide are those who talk about Hunter x Hunter, One-Punch Man, or Fate. They're totally different production environments; you just can't compare them.

I try and inform people about Super's production because it actually produces interesting conversation. That's far more beneficial that overblown hyperbole from upset fans who don't understand why things are the way they are. If you're running around screaming "Toei don't give a shit, the animators don't care, this is awful", then you're doing something wrong. It's possible to criticise the show from an informed point of view, and that's all I ever ask.

Yeah you're right it's unfortunate the higher ups rushed things. It really is stupid to compare Super with shows like One punch man where really talented artists worked and the production was healthy although comparing Super with long running series like Naruto or Bleach(until it stopped) is a different thing.

[Bansho64]

Yo, can we do a comparison strictly of Dragon Ball Z's animation in its first year and Super's animation in its first year? That would make things a lot easier considering the Z has a lot more episodes than Super and it's has been officially one year since Super started today. The first episode of Z aired April 26th 1989 and the 45th aired April 25th 1990. It's the closest I could get to an official year. So that's basically comparing Super's 50 to Z's 45. I can't post these images due to typing on a phone and simply not knowing how so I hope someone else could do it

[Yomi]

Yo, can we do a comparison strictly of Dragon Ball Z's animation in its first year and Super's animation in its first year? That would make things a lot easier considering the Z has a lot more episodes than Super and it's has been officially one year since Super started today. The first episode of Z aired April 26th 1989 and the 45th aired April 25th 1990. It's the closest I could get to an official year. So that's basically comparing Super's 50 to Z's 45. I can't post these images due to typing on a phone and simply not knowing how so I hope someone else could do it

That's a really good suggestion. I just went with the scenes that people referenced the most when arguing their points.
I think I'll get around to adding that sub section.

[Nejishiki]

I do have to say they were a lot more creative when it comes to fight choreography in DB and DBZ than they have been in Super.

I think it's noteworthy to mention the Dragon Ball and Z anime series were basing their battle choreography on Toriyama's own manga panels, for the most part. That's not to say they weren't capable of delivering their own outstanding work, but most of the sequences we love came from Toriyama himself. We lose out on his detailed scenarios when he opts to be a pure writer instead of an artist, leaving interpretation to Toyotaro and Toei Animation. Going by recent memory, the Goku vs Goku Black battle was very manga-like, being quick and to the point, with appropriate progression and character study.

Yo, can we do a comparison strictly of Dragon Ball Z's animation in its first year and Super's animation in its first year? That would make things a lot easier considering the Z has a lot more episodes than Super and it's has been officially one year since Super started today. The first episode of Z aired April 26th 1989 and the 45th aired April 25th 1990. It's the closest I could get to an official year. So that's basically comparing Super's 50 to Z's 45. I can't post these images due to typing on a phone and simply not knowing how so I hope someone else could do it

That's a really good suggestion. I just went with the scenes that people referenced the most when arguing their points.
I think I'll get around to adding that sub section.

I suggest you instead start from the Dragon Ball anime, if you plan on this. The Z anime, to my understanding, was already established and experienced in their production process due to working on the Dragon Ball anime for a couple of years already, merely changing the title of their project after a particular point in time.

EDIT: Is anyone aware of the pre-production of the Dragon Ball anime series, while I'm at it? I'd like to think they had more time to prepare it for broadcast with the appropriate advertising in place riding on Toriyama's name for his original Dr. Slump work and adaption.

[Yomi]

I suggest you instead start from the Dragon Ball anime, if you plan on this. The Z anime, to my understanding, was already established and experienced in their production process due to working on the Dragon Ball anime for a couple of years already, merely changing the title of their project after a particular point in time.

EDIT: Is anyone aware of the pre-production of the Dragon Ball anime series, while I'm at it? I'd like to think they had more time to prepare it for broadcast with the appropriate advertising in place riding on Toriyama's name for his original Dr. Slump work and adaption.

I'm not really tackling something like that. Besides, I think Dragon Ball is probably the best when it comes to fight choreography. It's just a hot topic right now and everyone always defaults to dbz.
That thing they "ran home from school to watch on toonami" that kind of crowd. If I were to add DB and DBGT, it would have to be a well edited video. Which I have no plans for yet.

Hmm, can't edit your post after a period of time? I can't find the edit button, for my earlier post. Bleh. That seems flawed.

[Nejishiki]

Well, even if you don't, I really feel the need to nag on my insistence that we start at the Dragon Ball anime! I understand the Z anime is more popular, but it's equivalent to comparing the production values of the third season of a television show to a pilot of its sequel that was hastily put together and still has more material to release as the season progresses. The nostalgia cannot be used as an excuse to deter fairness in comparisons. I'm not taking any issue with you personally, of course, Yomi.

[Yomi]

Well, even if you don't, I really feel the need to nag on my insistence that we start at the Dragon Ball anime! I understand the Z anime is more popular, but it's equivalent to comparing the production values of the third season of a television show to a pilot of its sequel that was hastily put together and still has more material to release as the season progresses. The nostalgia cannot be used as an excuse to deter fairness in comparisons. I'm not taking any issue with you personally, of course, Yomi.

Well in all honesty, I don't think the first year of Dragon Ball can compare to Dragon Ball super.
Since its 1st year anniversary goes up to the general blue arc. Super would completely blow it out of the water.
I noticed that with Dragon Ball Z as well. The sad part is, besides what I'm about to show you below. there's not much
in Dragon Ball Z's first year that rivals Super's best sequences.






And there's the Kaioken Clash that everyone knows about.
It's just a matter of Super's pacing allowing it to run through a lot more pivotal fights in the first 50 episodes.
While in Dragon Ball Z it's the Saiyan arc for 45 episodes.