Theories On the Origin of Black

[Doctor.]

why do people think black is goten? Goten was never born in trunks timeline as he was conceived during the 7 day break before the cell games. Goku died months before that

I don't subscrive to the Goten theory, but Goten being conceived during the 7 day break is mere fanon. The Cell arc lasted two weeks at best, Goten could have been conceived before the androids even showed up. As to why he wasm't "born" in the future, one could come up with numerous explanations, like for example he was born but "killed" as a baby so Trunks didn't know about him.

I more-so feel that the people who think Black is Goten just want Goten to gain some depth and become more relevant, and there's nothing wrong with that, he's a very shallow character.

[Anime Kitten]

Goten was never born in trunks timeline as he was conceived during the 7 day break before the cell games.

Do we know that, though? Any official word on the matter?

[jplaya2023]

[quote=Anime Kitten]Goten was never born in trunks timeline as he was conceived during the 7 day break before the cell games.
Do we know that, though? Any official word on the matter?[/quote]

headcanon, but all things considering it makes sense. Goku was in non stop training for 3 years, then he went to fight the androids, then he came with the heart virus and the second he woke up he went to the rosat with gohan. Afterwards he met cell, then the cell games came 7 days later

[Alruneia]

Goten was never born in trunks timeline as he was conceived during the 7 day break before the cell games.
Do we know that, though? Any official word on the matter?

headcanon, but all things considering it makes sense. Goku was in non stop training for 3 years, then he went to fight the androids, then he came with the heart virus and the second he woke up he went to the rosat with gohan. Afterwards he met cell, then the cell games came 7 days later

Minor problem: Goten was born sometime in 767... but also conceived in May 767. Natural pregnancy time suggests that Goku and Chi-Chi made Goten before the Cell arc even began, even when putting Goten's birth on December 31st. This is the same problem that Bulla is facing in Super right now unless Bulma is already pregnant, but that's a whole digression, actually, so I assume that they're both just early births (which happen in real life as well). As you say, though, it's all headcanon.

[HeroR]

I'm just waiting for confirmation that he is Zamasu's creation based on Goku, because he was the strongest human Zamasu faced.
Black is not Goku, but he recognizes him as the one to aspire to, and seems to hold some sort of respect for him, despite Goku just being a human, so I just assume that respect comes from Black partly owing his existence to Goku.

But that wouldn't explain why he knows Goku moves even before he met him, knows Vegeta, and seems to know what Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is.

[nobody231]

headcanon, but all things considering it makes sense. Goku was in non stop training for 3 years, then he went to fight the androids, then he came with the heart virus and the second he woke up he went to the rosat with gohan. Afterwards he met cell, then the cell games came 7 days later

Minor problem: Goten was born sometime in 767... but also conceived in May 767. Natural pregnancy time suggests that Goku and Chi-Chi made Goten before the Cell arc even began, even when putting Goten's birth on December 31st. This is the same problem that Bulla is facing in Super right now unless Bulma is already pregnant, but that's a whole digression, actually, so I assume that they're both just early births (which happen in real life as well). As you say, though, it's all headcanon.

Assuming that you're basing it on Goten being 7 in the Boo Saga, in Asia, newborn children are considered 1 year old. So, Goten could be born in 768 and still be 7 at the time of the Boo Saga.

[Cipher]

The weirdest theory I find plausible at this point is that Black is Future Zamasu.

We'd need quite a bit of explanation to get there, but I feel like there's a non-zero chance of a double fake-out.

[marcbret87]

Black is definitely weird with his narcissistic speech about beauty. I wonder if he is not a past Dragon Ball character that somehow Zamasu placed in Goku's body. Key points:

1. When Black goes to the past he knows who Vegeta and Lord Beerus are
2. He talks about fighting the great warrior Goku with this body
3. When he turns SSJ Rose he talks about finally dominating Goku's body
4. He uses one of the Potaras that Zamasu will presumably obtain when killing Gowasu

The whole thing about destroying mortals is definitely Zamasu-like, but all the other stuff about beauty does not sound like the stuff we heard from the U10 Kaioshin apprentice. Interesting mistery.

[fadeddreams5]

The manga revealed that Kaioshin died in Future Trunks' timeline and, as a result, so did Beerus. So my theory is that Zamasu learns about this and, after getting promoted to Kaioshin by Gowasu (and betraying him), he uses the time ring to travel to the future and become the kaioshin there, as he's morbidly obsessed with Goku after meeting him. As the sole kaioshin of Universe 7's future, he commences his plan of eradicating all mortals without abandoning his duties. Realizing that Goku is dead in this timeline, he begins this by either imbuing his essence into Goku's deceased body or reincarnating it into something new (exact details not known, but the gist is the same: he creates Goku Black). Goku Black is born this way, but he is no puppet either; in fact, they are linked. How? Because Black is this Universe 7's god of destruction.

It's genius. Zamasu has not only created a being capable of carrying out his mission, but his life is linked to a god of destruction he has an emotional and spiritual connection with too. The cherry on top? He's not doing anything wrong, at least according to Zeno's or the upper gods' eyes; he's carrying out his duties as a kaioshin (well, excluding his interruption in episode 56) and Black is doing his job too, while also sidestepping a bit.

[vilker]

I have 2 theories:


1.
Trunks and Cell's temporary trips created a distortion in space-time where a lot amount of energy accumulated. All that power was concentrated in the form of evil entity named Black, the last trip Trunks future made Black had enough enegy to escape that dimension where he was locked up and where time was 0 and fell down at the Trunks timeline, but needed a body to deploy its power because it was just a body without a body but Black had an unique ability: immortality.

Zamasu was watching everything going on with humans when he discovered that energy that did not belong to the human world, he decided to contact Black and promised the body of the best fighter in exchange to give him his immortality and help him carry out his plan. Black accepted in exchange for be part of his perfect world plan.

On the other hand Goku after dying cause the hearth illness, kept his body in the other world and was training for several years with the great heroes of all universes, becoming the number 1 and winning in the multiversal tournament other world, where he was offered various positions of God and guardian of Zeno, who always rejected.

One day Zamasu was to see Goku while training and told him he had a rival according to his level, Goku was very excited to hear the young Kaioh Shin so together they teleported where was Black, Goku felt that great energy around him, but He didn't understand why was so dispersed. Black reproached Zamasu that body was not on the top level his beauty deserved and sent Goku far away, Goku became SSGSS. Zamasu stopped him with his mental power for a moment and Black took over his body.

So Goku Black and Zamasu began their plan to erradicate all humanity.




2.
When dying Kaioshin and Bills, Whiss have to find a new Hakaishin ... He goes to see the oracle fish, and it speaks of premonition of SSG, Whiss then begins a search for the strongest ssj until it finds Goku in the other world. Whiss tells Goku if He wants to become God of destruction to revive, which He refuses.

On the other hand the Kaiohshin chosen for the universe 7 is Zamasu that just completed his training and can act as Kaioh Shin. Whiss go with Zamasu and tells that for the moment He has to wait, because Goku don't want to become Hakaishin, He must wait until find a Hakaishin linked with him, so can late a few years.

Zamasu pissed off, He go to see Goku and deceives polluting his soul and making you obey. Finally He convices Goku to become Hakaishin.
The story of Goku Black and Zamasu begins.

[emperior]

I've been thinking about it more and more, and I remembered why the Black = Goten theory was discarded.

- Black talks about his body as if he acquired it.

When fighting Goku for the first time, Black tells him that he never expected to fight against Goku in this body, meaning Black probably fought with Goku but in his original body (probably when he was still Zamasu, assuming Zamasu stole Goku's body?)
He has a lot of respect for Goku, that could be because Goku beat him in their fight and Black had to steal his body in order to secure a win.
He also wants to know everything about Goku to perfect his body, and he was able to absorb Goku's fighting style following their battle, which Black says suits his body more. This alone makes the Goten = Black theory completely wrong, also, in the latest episode, Black mentions that he finally reached his body's full potential.
Now people seem to have forgotten of this particular (I too forgot of it) but there's no way Black can be Goten.
It's possible though that Black is using Future Goku's body and that's why he was touching his heart after fighting with Goku. Before, we could also say he was touching that part of the body because of the pain he felt after Goku attacked him, but we also know that Black was suppressing a lot of power in that battle, so unless he suppressed himself even more when Goku hit him because of his ablity of getting stronger each time he's punched, it's probable his body still has some heart problem, and that might be the key to beat him.

(Sorry for my English but I'm not very good at it when I have to explain complex thoughts)

[marcbret87]

I've been thinking about it more and more, and I remembered why the Black = Goten theory was discarded.

- Black talks about his body as if he acquired it.

When fighting Goku for the first time, Black tells him that he never expected to fight against Goku in this body, meaning Black probably fought with Goku but in his original body (probably when he was still Zamasu, assuming Zamasu stole Goku's body?)
He has a lot of respect for Goku, that could be because Goku beat him in their fight and Black had to steal his body in order to secure a win.
He also wants to know everything about Goku to perfect his body, and he was able to absorb Goku's fighting style following their battle, which Black says suits his body more. This alone makes the Goten = Black theory completely wrong, also, in the latest episode, Black mentions that he finally reached his body's full potential.
Now people seem to have forgotten of this particular (I too forgot of it) but there's no way Black can be Goten.
It's possible though that Black is using Future Goku's body and that's why he was touching his heart after fighting with Goku. Before, we could also say he was touching that part of the body because of the pain he felt after Goku attacked him, but we also know that Black was suppressing a lot of power in that battle, so unless he suppressed himself even more when Goku hit him because of his ablity of getting stronger each time he's punched, it's probable his body still has some heart problem, and that might be the key to beat him.

(Sorry for my English but I'm not very good at it when I have to explain complex thoughts)

Yeah, the Goten=Black theory always seemed very much far-fetched. Indeed the way Black speaks it sounds like this is not his body and has somehow taken it over, if it's not Zamasu, I really wonder who is it.

[Kishido]

Is an account bet allowed?

If yes... I bet my account that Black has nothing to do with Goten.

Goten is still stay as useless as in Z

[sailorspazz]

Hoping the upcoming episodes give us some solid info about this mystery, but right now I believe that the Zamasu from the present traveled to Trunks' future and created Black there. Of course, the how is the where the major question lies. Given that we know Black has similar ki to Zamasu, and his comments about fighting Gokuu in "this body", some thoughts:

1. Zamasu is on track to be come a Kaioushin, which are gods of creation opposite the gods of destruction. This is usually said to imply that they create new planets, but do we know if they can also create living beings? If it's never been stated that they can't, Zamasu could have simply used his power to create Black, imbuing him with all his thoughts/feelings about mortals, molded in the image of the human that treated him rudely.

2. Another thought is that there are two Zamasus involved: the one from our timeline, and the one from the future. The present one travels to the future, tells his future self about his conclusions about humanity being worthless, and they work together to create Black, with one of them becoming the base from which he's formed. Though since Black's ki is not exactly the same as Zamasu's, it means either his ki is somehow corrupted in the process of becoming Black, or perhaps it's been combined with another, which leads me to...

3. Whether two Zamasus are involved or just one, it's possible that Gokuu's body was taken from the afterlife in the future to help create Black. If there's one Zamasu involved, he could've captured him and infused his own ki into him, taking control of his body and mind (though that would feel like it's seeing up the possibility of Gokuu breaking free of his control and regaining his conscience, which I don't think I want to see). If there're two Zamasus, one of them could combine with Gokuu (in some process other than fusion, since it doesn't look like the result of that), resulting in Black. I feel that Gokuu's body/mind being involved is highly probable, since Black recognized Vegeta, whom Zamasu never met.

Whether my theories are on track or completely wrong, I just hope the eventual explanation is both shocking and makes perfect sense

[Doctor.]

Goku Black is Goku Jr, mad that Toriyama retconned GT out of existence.

[vilker]

What if Zamasu kill all the KaiohShin and Hakaishin of Trunks timeline?
Maybe if this happen, Zeno disappear and Zamasu could became the new Zeno sama, so that's the reason why has inmortality. And then Zamasu starts to transform Trunks timeline in his utopic world, bringing to life 12 new Hakaishin, the most powerful character of each univers. Black would be only the first Hakaishin of 7th univers. So Z-Warriors will have to trip and kill all 12 Hakaishin in order to defeat Zamasu

[GodKaio-Ken]

This would be a total retcon but how would you guys feel if they made it so that Goku Black was actually the Super Saiyan God Beerus had the "prophetic" dream about?

I don't mean that he is literally a Saiyan but he does have Saiyan form and transformation.

[Cipher]

Get your final thoughts in before the reveal! All aboard!

Black is Future Zamasu. Main timeline Zamasu is going to contact himself after entering Trunks' timeline.

His emphasis of "doushi" (同士) over "nakama" (仲間), functionally identical words, likely implies a more kindred bond than simple associates. The root of "doushi," the first character, is "same," whereas "nakama" slightly privileges the idea of two people working between/amongst each other.

If I am wrong I will publicly apologize on the internet. This might be completely wrong.

[Herms]

His emphasis of "doushi" (同士) over "nakama" (仲間), functionally identical words, likely implies a more kindred bond than simple associates. The root of "doushi," the first character, is "same," whereas "nakama" slightly privileges the idea of two people working between/amongst each other.

In this case, doushi is 同志 rather than 同士 (per the episode's closed captioning). Literally it breaks down to "same will", and to the extent that it means anything significantly different than 仲間 (or 同士, for that matter), it emphasizes that they are two people who share the same agenda.

1. Zamasu is on track to be come a Kaioushin, which are gods of creation opposite the gods of destruction. This is usually said to imply that they create new planets, but do we know if they can also create living beings?

Yes, according to Toriyama's explanation in Chouzenshuu 1, they create both planets and life.

[Cipher]

His emphasis of "doushi" (同士) over "nakama" (仲間), functionally identical words, likely implies a more kindred bond than simple associates. The root of "doushi," the first character, is "same," whereas "nakama" slightly privileges the idea of two people working between/amongst each other.

In this case, doushi is 同志 rather than 同士 (per the episode's closed captioning). Literally it breaks down to "same will", and to the extent that it means anything significantly different than 仲間 (or 同士, for that matter), it emphasizes that they are two people who share the same agenda.

Welp.

I am apologizing on the internet. Thanks for the heads up.