Goku's role/usage in Dragon Ball Super

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Goku's role/usage in Dragon Ball Super

Post by PsionicWarrior » Sun Jul 31, 2016 4:00 pm

So in the same spirit of my other thread, Wtf about Gohan Gohan's role/usage in DBS I wonder wtf about Goku now?

I have to say I am starting to be utterly annoyed by how Goku's persona is not respected in Super, turning Goku into a retard who can't even tell he's fighting Beerus in a Monaca costume and acts even more childish than when he was an actual child.

Why did the writers at Toei diminish this character this much? Is there no way to see improvement in there? What a pleasure it was to see him growing up then evolving throughout the series, then suddenly in Super he lost his brain.

/rant off.

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Re: Goku's role/usage in Dragon Ball Super

Post by Lionel » Sun Jul 31, 2016 4:08 pm

Different era of writers coupled with Toriyama's laid-back approach to Dragon Ball as of late. He seems to be in more of his element when a gag moment or five are in the limelight of a movie/show. Rather than keep with the more focused and seasoned iteration of Goku that we saw in Dragon Ball Z it seems like the intent is to now return him back to his familiar trappings from early Dragon Ball when etiquette and social common sense appeared to be lacking. It doesn't bother me quite as much as others because Goku and the Saiyans in general don't see much of a fan in me except for when it comes to Gohan.

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Re: Goku's role/usage in Dragon Ball Super

Post by dbzfan7 » Sun Jul 31, 2016 4:12 pm

I remember back in the hay day, people hated how childish Goku was in GT. They didn't like how his grown maturity just went out the window. Now all the sudden it's a good thing? I swear it's basically ok to do the strange and bizarre if the highly praised "Canon" ideal does it. Any flaw comparable from the old toei days is suddenly alright if it potentially went by word of god.
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Re: Goku's role/usage in Dragon Ball Super

Post by Lujin_16 » Sun Jul 31, 2016 4:34 pm

I like Ruffy so this Goku is like him i have nothing against his childish character

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Re: Goku's role/usage in Dragon Ball Super

Post by Saikyo no Senshi » Sun Jul 31, 2016 4:35 pm

Gokuu's characterization in Super I hate to say it but is very bad. He has regressed quite a bit. Toei writers are to blame. The reason being a lack of understanding of the character. The anime being ahead of the manga is another reason. Since there is no manga to follow the writers sometimes add their own stuff which makes it worse.

For example Toshio's Gokuu being a mindless fighting machine who can't think of anything else. It means neither does he have a complete understanding of the character nor his added stuff like abusing the "Gokuu being stupid" trope for laughs makes the character look any good.

I think the anime being ahead of the manga is the biggest reason not just Gokuu a lot of other characters as well are so inconsistent. The manga Gokuu is more like Gokuu and I absolutely love it.

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Re: Goku's role/usage in Dragon Ball Super

Post by TheShadowEmperor8055 » Sun Jul 31, 2016 4:53 pm

PsionicWarrior wrote:So in the same spirit of my other thread, Wtf about Gohan Gohan's role/usage in DBS I wonder wtf about Goku now?

I have to say I am starting to be utterly annoyed by how Goku's persona is not respected in Super, turning Goku into a retard who can't even tell he's fighting Beerus in a Monaca costume and acts even more childish than when he was an actual child.

Why did the writers at Toei diminish this character this much? Is there no way to see improvement in there? What a pleasure it was to see him growing up then evolving throughout the series, then suddenly in Super he lost his brain.

/rant off.
Lionel wrote:Different era of writers coupled with Toriyama's laid-back approach to Dragon Ball as of late. He seems to be in more of his element when a gag moment or five are in the limelight of a movie/show. Rather than keep with the more focused and seasoned iteration of Goku that we saw in Dragon Ball Z it seems like the intent is to now return him back to his familiar trappings from early Dragon Ball when etiquette and social common sense appeared to be lacking. It doesn't bother me quite as much as others because Goku and the Saiyans in general don't see much of a fan in me except for when it comes to Gohan.
dbzfan7 wrote:I remember back in the hay day, people hated how childish Goku was in GT. They didn't like how his grown maturity just went out the window. Now all the sudden it's a good thing? I swear it's basically ok to do the strange and bizarre if the highly praised "Canon" ideal does it. Any flaw comparable from the old toei days is suddenly alright if it potentially went by word of god.
You all have very good points. However, I too am not a fan at how Goku's intelligence appears to be more lacking than ever. I mean, Goku in DBZ had innocent naivety, but there are moments in DBS where he just has blatant stupidity. I mean, to take a step further from something the OP posted, how is it that Goku can be light years away from Earth, in a spaceship, readying himself to use Instant Transmission, and be able to sense and recognize Freeza's ki from that distance, but can't be able to tell that Beerus is right in front of him in a costume? It's like Luffy not being able to recognize Usopp in his Sogeking costume. For all intents and purposes, I really, truly like Luffy as a character, and I understand that Toriyama may be wanting to rehash the Goku when he was a kid in Dragon Ball, but Goku has proven in the past in the manga that he's not that much of a dumbbell and has grown from that (to an extent, however small). However, the writers of DBS may want to make Goku dumb again possibly for the sake of comedy (I dunno), but if that's the reason, then it's not very funny to me. Goku wasn't even this dense in the BoG and RoF movies. Again, I'm not trying to say I don't like characters who are generally very dense, but I think it's safe to say that Goku at least progressed from that stage just a bit. Many didn't like how childish Goku was in GT (hell, many didn't like him being a child again in GT), and Toei importing some elements of GT (such as that whole "Copy-Vegeta" saga, Goku acting like a child and whatnot) into canon does not necessarily make it okay.

I really like Goku as a character, and while I won't go as far to say this completely ruins Goku's character for me, it's just annoying to see him this way at times.

(Also, P.S., let's also make this thread consist of constructive criticism and legitimate concerns about Goku in DBS rather than just a general DBS bashing thread)

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Re: Goku's role/usage in Dragon Ball Super

Post by Lord Beerus » Sun Jul 31, 2016 9:21 pm

TheShadowEmperor8055 wrote:You all have very good points. However, I too am not a fan at how Goku's intelligence appears to be more lacking than ever. I mean, Goku in DBZ had innocent naivety, but there are moments in DBS where he just has blatant stupidity. I mean, to take a step further from something the OP posted, how is it that Goku can be light years away from Earth, in a spaceship, readying himself to use Instant Transmission, and be able to sense and recognize Freeza's ki from that distance, but can't be able to tell that Beerus is right in front of him in a costume? It's like Luffy not being able to recognize Usopp in his Sogeking costume. For all intents and purposes, I really, truly like Luffy as a character, and I understand that Toriyama may be wanting to rehash the Goku when he was a kid in Dragon Ball, but Goku has proven in the past in the manga that he's not that much of a dumbbell and has grown from that (to an extent, however small). However, the writers of DBS may want to make Goku dumb again possibly for the sake of comedy (I dunno), but if that's the reason, then it's not very funny to me. Goku wasn't even this dense in the BoG and RoF movies. Again, I'm not trying to say I don't like characters who are generally very dense, but I think it's safe to say that Goku at least progressed from that stage just a bit. Many didn't like how childish Goku was in GT (hell, many didn't like him being a child again in GT), and Toei importing some elements of GT (such as that whole "Copy-Vegeta" saga, Goku acting like a child and whatnot) into canon does not necessarily make it okay.

I really like Goku as a character, and while I won't go as far to say this completely ruins Goku's character for me, it's just annoying to see him this way at times.

(Also, P.S., let's also make this thread consist of constructive criticism and legitimate concerns about Goku in DBS rather than just a general DBS bashing thread)
Dragon Ball Goku certainly had innocent naivety but Dragon Ball Z has his fair share of very stupid moments. That's not to say that Dragon Ball Super Goku hasn't bee acting far too childish, but I'd say Dragon Ball Z Goku, especially his Android/Cell incarnation, still remain his least intelligent portrayal in the series.

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Re: Goku's role/usage in Dragon Ball Super

Post by ChronoTwigger » Sun Jul 31, 2016 9:52 pm

The beginning: Goku annoyed to be a farmer.
So, the whole show is about an uncanny strong guy that want to have fun.
This is the first thing you see in the opening.
This is how the show begin.
This is how the character was designed this time.
They chosen a more light-hearted kind of action comedy. Just choices.
There's no fanboys or haters in commercial products, no one love or hate Goku, there are just market choices.
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Re: Goku's role/usage in Dragon Ball Super

Post by HybridSaiyan » Mon Aug 01, 2016 9:11 am

Goku was a character I idolized when growing up, but now as I'm watching him in Super..I'm getting to the point I can't fucking stand him. In DBZ, you could tolerate his childish behavior because it fitted the scene. Like, when he thought the otherworld clouds were food! lol.
Image

He could also show extreme Maturity and tutelage as when he trained Gohan In HBTC. He was serious and dorky at the same time which is Goku.

[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]

Another glimmer of Goku's realistic character.

The Goku in Super is definitely Luffy 2.0

I Miss how Goku was written in the first 13 Toei Movies.

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Re: Goku's role/usage in Dragon Ball Super

Post by namekiansaiyan » Mon Aug 01, 2016 9:46 am

Goku is just everywhere and in 95% of all scenes and this ultimately takes away screen time from other characters. The audience then can't get excited to see him after he goes missing like they did in Z which was one of the great things about it.

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Re: Goku's role/usage in Dragon Ball Super

Post by PsionicWarrior » Mon Aug 01, 2016 11:04 am

Lord Beerus wrote:but I'd say Dragon Ball Z Goku, especially his Android/Cell incarnation, still remain his least intelligent portrayal in the series.
In the Android/Cell arc he understood everything about Gohan and was the only one to think of a way to get the dragon balls back to life.

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Re: Goku's role/usage in Dragon Ball Super

Post by Lord Beerus » Mon Aug 01, 2016 11:08 am

PsionicWarrior wrote:
Lord Beerus wrote:but I'd say Dragon Ball Z Goku, especially his Android/Cell incarnation, still remain his least intelligent portrayal in the series.
In the Android/Cell arc he understood everything about Gohan and was the only one to think of a way to get the dragon balls back to life.
Goku understand nothing about Gohan beyond, "He's very strong when angry". Hell, his lack of understand of Gohan on a personal level led to him getting called out by Piccolo.

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Re: Goku's role/usage in Dragon Ball Super

Post by PsionicWarrior » Mon Aug 01, 2016 11:09 am

I don't follow you, he was right wasn't he?

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Re: Goku's role/usage in Dragon Ball Super

Post by Lord Beerus » Mon Aug 01, 2016 11:19 am

PsionicWarrior wrote:I don't follow you, he was right wasn't he?
He was technically right about Gohan, but that was only one aspect of his personality. He was pretty much clueless about Gohan is everything other regard. And as Piccolo stated when he was chewing out Goku, did Gohan even know what to do when he faced Perfect Cell? Did he actually know about the plan to defeat him? Gohan did not care for fighting in the Cell Games Tournament and Goku dramatically didn't notice and understand that.

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Re: Goku's role/usage in Dragon Ball Super

Post by PsionicWarrior » Mon Aug 01, 2016 11:45 am

Oh yes all he saw and realized was that Gohan was the only one capable to beat Cell, and he also knew how to trigger it. The fact he didn't take other psychological aspect into account doesn't make him an idiot, just someone who doesn't think of everything, as he is.

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Re: Goku's role/usage in Dragon Ball Super

Post by sintzu » Mon Aug 01, 2016 12:08 pm

PsionicWarrior wrote:
Why did the writers at Toei diminish this character this much ?

Is there no way to see improvement in there ?
Because Toei has no quality control and the writers do whatever they want even if it goes completely against previously established material.

No, we're over 50 episodes in so what we have now is what we'll continue to get until the show is over.
dbzfan7 wrote: I remember back in the hay day, people hated how childish Goku was in GT. They didn't like how his grown maturity just went out the window. Now all the sudden it's a good thing ? I swear it's basically ok to do the strange and bizarre if the highly praised "Canon" ideal does it.
Nearly everything that's hated in GT is present in Super but for some reason its OK for Super to do them but not for GT.

I assure you GT would've gotten away with nearly all its flaws if it had Toriyama's name on it.
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Re: Goku's role/usage in Dragon Ball Super

Post by Faisal Shourov » Mon Aug 01, 2016 12:44 pm

PsionicWarrior wrote:Oh yes all he saw and realized was that Gohan was the only one capable to beat Cell, and he also knew how to trigger it. The fact he didn't take other psychological aspect into account doesn't make him an idiot, just someone who doesn't think of everything, as he is.
It does, Goku is an irresponsible father and an idiot human being
Toyotarō: … I get the feeling I’ve just heard something amazing (laughs). Lord Beerus and Whis turn up in Dragon Ball Super, and have become an unsurpassable wall for Goku and the gang. What do the two of them mean to you?

Toriyama: Well… First off, right now I don’t have any plans for Goku and Vegeta to surpass Beerus and Whis.

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Re: Goku's role/usage in Dragon Ball Super

Post by PsionicWarrior » Mon Aug 01, 2016 12:58 pm

Faisal Shourov wrote:
PsionicWarrior wrote:Oh yes all he saw and realized was that Gohan was the only one capable to beat Cell, and he also knew how to trigger it. The fact he didn't take other psychological aspect into account doesn't make him an idiot, just someone who doesn't think of everything, as he is.
It does, Goku is an irresponsible father and an idiot human being
lol

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Re: Goku's role/usage in Dragon Ball Super

Post by GodKaio-Ken » Mon Aug 01, 2016 5:59 pm

Lord Beerus wrote:
PsionicWarrior wrote:I don't follow you, he was right wasn't he?
He was technically right about Gohan, but that was only one aspect of his personality. He was pretty much clueless about Gohan is everything other regard. And as Piccolo stated when he was chewing out Goku, did Gohan even know what to do when he faced Perfect Cell? Did he actually know about the plan to defeat him? Gohan did not care for fighting in the Cell Games Tournament and Goku dramatically didn't notice and understand that.
I've thought about this a lot actually. He knew Gohan could only win if his back was pushed all the way to the wall. What he didn't understand was how scared/confused Gohan was leading to that point. He seemed to assume competition against a strong opponent would release that hidden power but it turned out being something completely different.

In the end if Goku doesn't do things the way he does everyone is probably dead.
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Re: Goku's role/usage in Dragon Ball Super

Post by Ushabtis » Mon Aug 01, 2016 10:35 pm

sintzu wrote:I assure you GT would've gotten away with nearly all its flaws if it had Toriyama's name on it.
Its just sad how true this is. if Beerus was made in GT everyone would hate him and call him a one joke pony
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