Expanded Lore Discussion Thread

[LightBing]

With the new movies and recently Super, a lot of what we thought about the Dragon Universe changed. Either because it was retconned or because it was greatly expanded, offering different perspectives.

Starting with BoG, the introduction of Beerus and the expansion into 12 Universes, what does everyone think? What new concepts do you love and hate? How do you see this developing?

I for one love the expansion into 12 Universes, the Dragon Universe was able to break free of their limits.
The recent arc is sprinkling tidbits everywhere, which enlightens us to what the hell is going on in the Universe at large. Before we had Gods and they did things, we just didn't know what. We also only had four galaxy's.

I really adore stuff like a talented Kaio being able to be promoted to a Kaioshin, which actually goes against what Mr.Toriyama said before. Concepts like the apparently abandoned Namekian Book of Legends, is more of what I want to color this Universe.

[Anime Kitten]

I really like the addition of gods. It was really a breath of fresh air for the franchise since before every new villain was just strong enough to fight (granted, Black Goku is the same way). I like the new Universes as well, but I've not decided whether the Omni-King is a good character.

This thread is a good idea!

[LightBing]

The Omni-King is pretty dull so far. I hope they tell us how he came into power. The Hakaishins are chosen, the Kaioshins and Kaio are supposed to spawn from the Kaiju. I don't really know if that's the case anymore. It would be quite interesting if all the Gods were actually chosen.

Another important lore Super introduced, the Super Dragon Balls! I wished they went deeper into it. I was really hoping to see Zarama and his role in the Universe.

[precita]

Everything with the new Kai's, Gods, and new universes is great.

The Super Saiyan rainbow colors on the other hand are an absolute low point. Super Saiyan Blue looks really cool, but I still dislike the idea of different color Saiyan hair being a new powerup out of nowhere. At least you could say SSJ3 was just some bizarre new transformation created by Goku for the first time, but this Super Saiyan God stuff apparently always existed.

[Xeztin]

I think more Universes was almost a neccesitiy for a continuation of Dragon Ball because Freeza probably controlled a third of the universe 7's planets, Cell was an android, and Boo is a being that's been dormant and existed since the beginning of time. I think it'd be hard to top these 3 villains without adding universes or higher tier beings.

Having said that, I love the God of Destruction and Universe expansion because without them there would be no story. The Omni-King is bland but I believe when he is pissed off he takes on another appearance. (I have a feeling he's going to have a hissy fit and blow up everything soon). We have a certain line that was dropped about him destroying other universes that could lead into more story which I like. The new Kaioshin's are pretty cool, especially Zamasu. I really hope we get to explore the demon realm soon. I honestly have no idea what will happen after this Black arc, but I feel like some big war is going to happen next. Oh! I love how the Sayians in U6 are not evil at all!

[Anime Kitten]

Something I don't like is some people being able to sense god ki without being gods themselves. I am interested in Planet Salad, is it? The U6 Saiyans' homeworld.

[Bullza]

The 12 universes idea is almost certainly the best idea they've had with all this new content. It's just like how they expanded to having other worlds back at the start of DBZ because Goku had become the strongest on Earth and then to a lesser extent how they introduced time travel because Goku was the strongest best in the present.

It's opened the door to many possibilities. They'd have struggled I think moving the story forward in any significant way without that idea.

[TheDevilsCorpse]

It's opened the door to many possibilities. They'd have struggled I think moving the story forward in any significant way without that idea.

I agree with your first statement, but I honestly don't think Super (or the films prior) have done anything that would absolutely require the concept of the 12 Universes to exist so far. Obviously, this notion will change the moment we get to Zeno's tournament though. (If we get there.)

• Battle of Gods? Universe 7.
• Resurrection "F"? Still in Universe 7.
• Hakaishin Champa Arc? It's easier with things being between Universes, but the Super Dragon Balls could have just been scattered across the universe. Beerus and Champa could have been dual Hakaishin, each watching over half the universe. Zeno could still be the highest being who watches over everything and appoints the gods or whatever. Champa's fighters are the only aspect that directly benefits from the Universe concept; Cabba and Frost specifically. Hit could still have been an ultimate assassin with absurd power whose existence was nothing more than a rumor of a rumor or something. Still, fans already complain about most of the characters, even with them being from a different universe. So what's a liiiittle more contrivance?
• Future" Trunks Arc? Hard to say right this moment. If Zamasu is the cause of Black's origin, he could have just been the first newly appointed Kaioshin since Boo killed them all (in both timelines). No explicit need for Gowasu and Universe 10 yet.

[DragonHermit]

Yeah. There doesn't seem to be a plot necessity for the 12 universes, other than them being cool. However, they could present Z warriors with possible "what if" scenarios (U6 Saiyans). Cabba's thing was just sidelined for Trunks though, which kinda achieves the same purpose.

Zeno was just disappointing and lazy tbh. Considering Toriyama's writing style, I expected there to be a Lord of all 12 Universes since Super started, but I thought he'd be an evil Frieza-like character, and not an overpowered Pokemon.

All in all, I feel like this whole 12 universes thing is a brilliant premise, but I don't see them executing it well. The possibilities of stories they could come up with with alternate universes and Saiyans is immense. Toriyama seems to have burn out from even coming up with ideas, let alone doing a weekly manga.

[VegettoEX]

but I thought he'd be an evil Frieza-like character, and not an overpowered Pokemon.

This is exactly why he is the way he is.

Meeting your expectations isn't interesting. Defying them is.

Then again, because I live in the world of Toriyama's words far more than any sane human being should, I wasn't surprised in the least. Sooooooo... when do MY expectations get defied?!

[sintzu]

What I like :

Majin Buu's extended origin cause he's more of his own character rather than a Cell clone.

Dabura being a main villain in Trunks' timeline and addressing what happened with Buu there.

Confirming that Vegeta reached Grade 2 first.

Trunks being able to use Ssj2 and combining it with Grade 3.

Beerus, Whis, & Black.

The 12 universe concept.

Somewhat addressing weather or not Vegeta can use Ssj3.

What I don't like :

Beerus seemingly being the one responsible for planet Vegeta's destruction.

King Kai's planet being small thanks to Beerus.

Beerus being the one who locked the old Kai in the Z sword.

Freeza being able to surpass a SsjB in 4 months.

Frost because he's nearly a Freeza clone.

The Trunks/Mai relationship.

What I'm not sure about :

Zeno because we don't know much about him.

The new Ssj forms because there's a chance they'll stop at Blue so I'll be fine with them if that's the case.

[Lord Beerus]

The introduction of the 12 universes is most certainly the best thing to happen to the franchise in the last 20 years purely due the fact that if one universe seems dull, there's another one that can be explored. The story of Dragon Ball really feels like it given an additional 10 years of expansion alone just on that concept because they can do so much with it.

[marcbret87]

Yesterday's episode was quite interesting in that it introduced some further lore, with the time rings and the potara necessary to use them. Let's see if they explain these alternate timeline rings, and if they were created by Future Trunks.

[Alruneia]

I agree, the 12 (18) universe expansion is pretty great. I hope we get to see more of the other universes before moving up to multiverse-level threats.
Lack of creativity is a real risk when it comes to this lore expansion, because there's so many people and so much stuff to come up with. We might end up with another ten more Beerus clones, when really, Beerus and Champa should be the only cat gods. If we end up with Beerus, Fat Beerus, Short Beerus, Female Beerus, Buff Beerus... you get my point, it'll be lame. Similarly, we might end up with even more Dragon Ball sets even though the twin universes are supposed to be different, when it would be much more interesting for every twin universe to have its own set of magical artefacts. Instead of another set of Super Dragon Balls, Twin Universe 5 (Universes 5 and 8.) could have a set of crystals that power up their wielder, much like in classic RPG plots, for example. The chance of us ending up with twelve universes that are much too similar is higher than I'd like.
I'm not sure what I think about Zen'ou (the Omni-King) just yet. I'm wondering if he was introduced too early. He has set up an arc for us (the Omniverse Tournament), at least, but that shouldn't be for a long while yet, possibly not even until it's time for Super to end. Hopefully they'll be able to find ways to use Zen'ou before then. We'll see in two weeks, I guess.

[Commander_Red]

They've developed Beerus in this short time to be far more interesting a character than any of the regular cast. Part of me loves it, part of me wishes they could do something to Goku, but End of Z is getting in the way.

[LightBing]

Since they haven't break the roof after the previous arc, like it was custom in Dragon Ball. I hope for all we've been offered to be actually explored. Instead of having a vast Universe using it only for Namek and to teach Goku the Shunkan Ido. The current arc which initially seemed exclusive to Earth, is actually giving us quite a bit of information.

Disregarding the first two arcs, the tournament arc introduced the mirror Universes. Which got immediate influence, mainly with Cabba and the Saiyans. While this kinda reduced the Universe in half, it makes for much more interesting dynamics.
We could see the Multiverse Tournament with some rivalries.

Since we've been learning about the time rules and how it's a crime. I thought it would be interesting to see a Space Prison, containing criminal from all Twelve Universes.

[omaro34]

Something I don't like is some people being able to sense god ki without being gods themselves. I am interested in Planet Salad, is it? The U6 Saiyans' homeworld.

I sincerely hope they haven't forgotten about this. They hinted at visiting planet Salad too explicitly in the U6 arc for it not to have this happen.

I agree with most people here in that the 12 universes is a great concept. Most people forget that there were originally 18 but 6 were destroyed by the Omni-King, it would be cool to see backstory on how all that went down. If the Omni-King is as strong as they claim, then surely he could transform into another being. I know Toriyama loves sending us the "don't judge a book by its cover", message, but we will see.

[fadeddreams5]

I like the introduction of god ki. I hate how they've implemented it. The SSJG ritual is by far one of the worst things ever done in this series. Vegeta training to reach SSJB cheapened the entire concept. SSJG looking like the base form of the saiyan and not the SSJ form irritated the hell out of me. Them replacing SSJG with SSJB so quickly was also a very bad idea. If they were going to go that route, they should have just introduced SSJB from the get-go and called it SSJG. Then there's the issues of whether Base Goku has the strength of a god or not, and all the power level dilemmas caused by inconsistencies. This potentially cool concept turned into a ****ing mess, imo.

I like Beerus and Whis. I hate how they've been squeezed onto everything. After the first arc, Beerus should have gone back to sleep and Whis should have stayed protecting him, only reappearing for the Champa arc, and later remaining off-screen again. Neither Goku or Vegeta should have gone there to train, instead attaining SSJG and using their own skills and talent to learn how to maintain it. They didn't need a trainer in the Cell or Buu sagas, and shouldn't have here. They used to be described as martial arts geniuses, but this series has made them come off as amateurs (Goku more so).

I like the expansion of the multiverse. I hate how all the universes are so similar. It doesn't appear like Goku and co are visiting other universes, but rather, other planets. So what was even the point of this?

I liked the announcement of Frieza's revival (this applies more to F). I hated every little damn thing about the movie and arc.

So basically, the few things I like have been off-set by being horribly executed...

...well, until the new arc came along. I like Future Trunks, who is surprisingly as great a character as he was in DBZ (or greater). I love Goku Black so far, and Zamasu has a lot of potential. The whole "humans/mortals create war, so they must perish" schtick has been played to death in anime and movies, but it's never been done in DBZ, and I like it. I just wish these characters had been introduced during the glory days of DBZ instead. With the momentum of the Cell saga, this could have been an amazing arc, replacing the Buu one or taking place before it.

[DragonHermit]

The whole SSG and SSB being different forms was only done for the movies. They needed 1 transformation for each movie. The red form is irrelevant.

[fadeddreams5]

The whole SSG and SSB being different forms was only done for the movies. They needed 1 transformation for each movie. The red form is irrelevant.

I wouldn't use the word "needed." =P