The Vegeta Controversy - What did you expect?

[kinisking]

frieza doesn't count. He was tired and worn out

And Vegeta still ended up getting blown the fuck up, and then had to be saved by Goku. Again.

No. Goku got saved by whis. Let's not try to act like Goku was any better than Vegeta there.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

frieza doesn't count. He was tired and worn out

And Vegeta still ended up getting blown the fuck up, and then had to be saved by Goku. Again.

No. Goku got saved by whis. Let's not try to act like Goku was any better than Vegeta there.

It's just an excuse to whine.

[Kamiccolo9]

frieza doesn't count. He was tired and worn out

And Vegeta still ended up getting blown the fuck up, and then had to be saved by Goku. Again.

No. Goku got saved by whis. Let's not try to act like Goku was any better than Vegeta there.

He didn't. But Goku's not the subject of this thread now, is he?

Few characters were treated well by RF.

[KingKaash]

I hoped/expected Vegeta to be the guy to kill Goku Black. I thought it was his time to shine and it would be perfect for him to defeat a Goku look alike. While Goku ran around with the Gods, Vegeta did more intense training and angrily said he'd kill Goku Black. So it's a bit disappointing at this point to Vegeta go down rather quickly, even though the stabbing scene was beautiful. I think Vegeta still has a shot to defeat Goku Black.

[sintzu]

Any Vegeta fight is just a side-show and not the main event.

And this is why I love the RF arc so much, Toei changed it up so that Vegeta's fight was the main event, not Goku's.

In terms of it happening again, I don't think it will because Toriyama is too afraid of stepping out of Goku's shadow.

[dbgtFO]

Any Vegeta fight is just a side-show and not the main event.

And this is why I love the RF arc so much, Toei changed it up so that Vegeta's fight was the main event, not Goku's.

In terms of it happening again, I don't think it will because Toriyama is too afraid of stepping out of Goku's shadow.

Wut?
The RoF Arc may have extended the fight a bit, but it still does not upgrade it to the main event. The main event is still Goku vs Freeza, while Vegeta gets the sloppy seconds, although it's minutes in the Super version

Of course it's become pretty standard to have Vegeta worf to the main villain, while Goku gets the main fight. I know one shouldn't fix, what ain't broke, but it's boring, if it's always the same formula, which is why Vegeta possibly having a bigger role was much anticipated by me, when RoF was about to be released.
It also doesn't help, that Vegeta gets to look like an utter fool most of the time. If he isn't urging the villains to power up or transform, he is instead standing in complete shock and does nothing to stop it, even knowing it would be bad for him. The only exception is Vegeta trying to prevent Gohan's transformation into an Oozaru back in the Saiyan Arc.
I was personally annoyed, that Vegeta just stood there and did nothing until the last second against Fat Buu, when he had previously been landing all the hits, even though Buu didn't really take damage. At least dodge and then try to another strategy. Since he seemed to have greater speed, perhaps he could use that as an advantage.
At least the Future Trunks arc hasn't ended yet, so perhaps we'll get to see Vegeta do more than being the main villain's punching bag.

[Baggie_Saiyan]

Ha people were overreacting again. Funny how no one is complaining that Goku and Trunks got demolished and Vegeta mustered every bit of energy to deflect the big bang attack from Black and Zamasu (sort of similar to how he did in the Cell arc) this week. Were are all the meme's and collage's this week? Toriyama hates Goku now right?

[TheMikado]

So I've been meaning to write this analysis for a long time..

Vegeta, true to his personality, is fiercely independent. Prior to Super, we see no instances of Vegeta training under or with someone outside of his own bloodline. Vegeta did have substantial character development, but character development does not equal personality change. Vegeta's pride, competitive spirit, and independence are aspects of his personality.

How does this apply to Vegeta? In DBZ we always see Vegeta advancing under his own terms. He doesn't train with Goku or Future Trunks to obtain SSJ, he doesn't work with Goku or Gohan to obtain SSJ2. You could argue whether he was SSJ2 prior to Majin but that's another debate. The point is, even when he "subjected" himself his mind was always independently willed.

Many often use Vegeta's revelations about Goku in the Buu saga as to his willingness to work with Goku and Whis in Super. However, Vegeta's development was far more than that. His true character development came in his love for his family and the acknowledgement of Goku's ability to surpass his limits. Vegeta's world view expanded as well as narrowed down to the thing which were most important to him.

Why Super's Vegeta is a regression.
The main reason Vegeta can be seen as regressing is his companionship with Goku. Vegeta's story is now constantly interlaced with Goku's at every turn. This is a far, far, far cry from the Goku/Vegeta relationship where years would span between the time they would see each other. Vegeta lived life independently of Goku with no need or desire to follow him on his adventures. Furthermore, his function now only seems as a foil to expand on Goku as main protagonist.
To put this into context, imagine how annoying it would be for Ken Masters to constantly follow Ryu around rather than expanding out and living his own life. Vegeta leaving his family after his character development for months on end to catch up to Goku goes against his end of Z/Buu saga revelations. Further, Vegeta training in the RoSaT, heading off to the tournament, and then to the future make Vegeta feel more like a lost puppy dog then the Prince of Saiyans. This is only really increased by Vegeta adding little substance by his presence. His place could easily be taken by Gohan, or a powered up Piccolo. Vegeta, as a character is no longer that independent character.

What GT did right:
Regardless of what you feel about GT, its characterization of Vegeta was far more consistent with both the end of Buu saga and EoZ Vegeta. He has not lost his independence, pride, or temper. Furthermore he actively lives his life with the character developments towards his family that he made in Z. Choosing to not run off into space with Goku but stay and home on Earth even when no active threat was present. Further he had fights totally independent of Goku and was technically the Big Bad of the Baby arc. Even further he made a stand against Super 17 as the last Z warrior standing and in the Shadow Dragon arc it was Vegeta who suggested fusion which shows his acknowledgement of Goku in Z. He is still able to put his pride aside long enough to work with Goku to defeat Omega Shenron. Another nugget is that his interactions with Bulma feel far more natural in GT than in Super... The "My Bulma" scene of Super was a fairly gross exaggeration of Vegeta as compared to his usual raging and still garners snickers today.

I don't think its really just about taking out the big bad, but rather the usage of Vegeta as a whole in Super. Many feel that if you're going to bring Vegeta along for the ride at least let him have a better fight than 3 hits and out on the Big Bad. Yes his RoF fight in Super was better but remember that's not even how it was originally written. As I said before, I'd rather see Vegeta have his own adventures than tagging along after Goku only to make him look good. That's not Vegeta's style as consistent with his personality, but that now seems to be the character's primary function.

Also note* I even like Toriyama designed mustache Vegeta and the scene where he contemplates it in the mirror, he seems to have retained a level of vanity and it's even more hilarious that he's taking time to ponder something that superficial rather than focusing on ways to get stronger than Kakkorat.. Subtle things like this show true character development yet retain a characters personality. Both Vegeta and Goku seem to be written by people who do not understand the characters or traveled their long journey with them.

[Yomi]

So I've been meaning to write this analysis for a long time..

Vegeta, true to his personality...

.... Subtle things like this show true character development yet retain a characters personality. Both Vegeta and Goku seem to be written by people who do not understand the characters or traveled their long journey with them.

Hmm, I see.
That's an interesting interpretation.

[TheMikado]

I think the main thing I was trying to convey, is that by tying Vegeta so intimately to Goku and his storyline it actual reduces the character and makes them smaller while increasing their inclusion to the story.

If this were a sitcom Vegeta would now be the wingman who never hooks the hot girl instead of the guy friend who's always out on his own looking for a hot date.

[Muffin Man]

Super's problem in general is that it's structured too much like a sitcom now. The plot always focuses on Goku and his group of supporting characters that are always immediately surrounding him, each with a static "role", rather than a bunch of different characters who are all doing their own thing and interacting with each other in a variety of interesting ways,

[shomangaka]

So I've been meaning to write this analysis for a long time..


Why Super's Vegeta is a regression.
The main reason Vegeta can be seen as regressing is his companionship with Goku. Vegeta's story is now constantly interlaced with Goku's at every turn. This is a far, far, far cry from the Goku/Vegeta relationship where years would span between the time they would see each other. Vegeta lived life independently of Goku with no need or desire to follow him on his adventures. Furthermore, his function now only seems as a foil to expand on Goku as main protagonist.
To put this into context, imagine how annoying it would be for Ken Masters to constantly follow Ryu around rather than expanding out and living his own life. Vegeta leaving his family after his character development for months on end to catch up to Goku goes against his end of Z/Buu saga revelations. Further, Vegeta training in the RoSaT, heading off to the tournament, and then to the future make Vegeta feel more like a lost puppy dog then the Prince of Saiyans. This is only really increased by Vegeta adding little substance by his presence. His place could easily be taken by Gohan, or a powered up Piccolo. Vegeta, as a character is no longer that independent character.

I agree with you to a slight degree. I would love for Vegeta to do his own thing without Goku (in other words no more Goku aimlessly wasting time at CC instead of being in his own home). But you're making it seem like Vegeta is chasing Goku around in his adventures *I would argue is the other way around* You're only right on the instance when they went to RoSaT to prepare for the tournament. But may I remind you that it was Vegeta who first decided to train under Whis and Goku chased after him. Vegeta is a saiyan therefore he likes fighting and I find it natural for him to be interested in participating in the tournament. Now regarding the fact that he traveled to the future.... by any chance do you not want him to get involved in saving his son's world ??? I don't understand how that can be seen as character regression. Again I really liked that Vegeta hasn't been hanging around Goku so much recently because the gravity of the situation is involving his family (this is why I keep hoping Trunks or Vegeta get to kill Black)

[Baggie_Saiyan]

So I've been meaning to write this analysis for a long time..


Why Super's Vegeta is a regression.
The main reason Vegeta can be seen as regressing is his companionship with Goku. Vegeta's story is now constantly interlaced with Goku's at every turn. This is a far, far, far cry from the Goku/Vegeta relationship where years would span between the time they would see each other. Vegeta lived life independently of Goku with no need or desire to follow him on his adventures. Furthermore, his function now only seems as a foil to expand on Goku as main protagonist.
To put this into context, imagine how annoying it would be for Ken Masters to constantly follow Ryu around rather than expanding out and living his own life. Vegeta leaving his family after his character development for months on end to catch up to Goku goes against his end of Z/Buu saga revelations. Further, Vegeta training in the RoSaT, heading off to the tournament, and then to the future make Vegeta feel more like a lost puppy dog then the Prince of Saiyans. This is only really increased by Vegeta adding little substance by his presence. His place could easily be taken by Gohan, or a powered up Piccolo. Vegeta, as a character is no longer that independent character.

I agree with you to a slight degree. I would love for Vegeta to do his own thing without Goku (in other words no more Goku aimlessly wasting time at CC instead of being in his own home). But you're making it seem like Vegeta is chasing Goku around in his adventures *I would argue is the other way around* You're only right on the instance when they went to RoSaT to prepare for the tournament. But may I remind you that it was Vegeta who first decided to train under Whis and Goku chased after him. Vegeta is a saiyan therefore he likes fighting and I find it natural for him to be interested in participating in the tournament. Now regarding the fact that he traveled to the future.... by any chance do you not want him to get involved in saving his son's world ??? I don't understand how that can be seen as character regression. Again I really liked that Vegeta hasn't been hanging around Goku so much recently because the gravity of the situation is involving his family (this is why I keep hoping Trunks or Vegeta get to kill Black)

Also at the beginning of the arc Vegeta went off to train with Whis without telling Goku. They both do it.

[TheMikado]

So I've been meaning to write this analysis for a long time..


Why Super's Vegeta is a regression.
The main reason Vegeta can be seen as regressing is his companionship with Goku. Vegeta's story is now constantly interlaced with Goku's at every turn. This is a far, far, far cry from the Goku/Vegeta relationship where years would span between the time they would see each other. Vegeta lived life independently of Goku with no need or desire to follow him on his adventures. Furthermore, his function now only seems as a foil to expand on Goku as main protagonist.
To put this into context, imagine how annoying it would be for Ken Masters to constantly follow Ryu around rather than expanding out and living his own life. Vegeta leaving his family after his character development for months on end to catch up to Goku goes against his end of Z/Buu saga revelations. Further, Vegeta training in the RoSaT, heading off to the tournament, and then to the future make Vegeta feel more like a lost puppy dog then the Prince of Saiyans. This is only really increased by Vegeta adding little substance by his presence. His place could easily be taken by Gohan, or a powered up Piccolo. Vegeta, as a character is no longer that independent character.

I agree with you to a slight degree. I would love for Vegeta to do his own thing without Goku (in other words no more Goku aimlessly wasting time at CC instead of being in his own home). But you're making it seem like Vegeta is chasing Goku around in his adventures *I would argue is the other way around* You're only right on the instance when they went to RoSaT to prepare for the tournament. But may I remind you that it was Vegeta who first decided to train under Whis and Goku chased after him. Vegeta is a saiyan therefore he likes fighting and I find it natural for him to be interested in participating in the tournament. Now regarding the fact that he traveled to the future.... by any chance do you not want him to get involved in saving his son's world ??? I don't understand how that can be seen as character regression. Again I really liked that Vegeta hasn't been hanging around Goku so much recently because the gravity of the situation is involving his family (this is why I keep hoping Trunks or Vegeta get to kill Black)

I'm talking about chasing after Goku both physically and metaphorically. In GT, Vegeta felt no need to chase the same levels of power as Goku except for the sake of protecting the world and his family. And even then he didn't enlist the help of Old Kai to pull out his tail or anything. He had his wife build the Blutz wave machine ( and as I said earlier Vegeta ONLY has ever trained/advanced with those in his own bloodline/family). At no point did Vegeta ever seek or Roshi, or King Kai, or Kaioshin in an effort to catch up to Goku. It was always independently and on his own terms, even in GT. As to the Vegeta going to the future, it is more of the way he went it and his contributions thus far. Vegeta's personality and pride would take it as an insult to his bloodline. I would have expected a resolute stance and statement that he is going and that it is his fight, rather than asking for permission from Bulma. Further I would have expected him to insist on taking on Black personally the first time around. Even when deciding who would fight Black while in the future we didn't get the typical Vegeta vibe, especially knowing that Goku took his Frieza kill, went first in the tournament, and just recently sparred with Black the last time.

Look Vegeta has obviously had character development, but his personality has been severely dulled in order to advance the plot, basically the same issues Goku is having where they are forcibly dumbing him down just for the sake of connecting plot points. Many of the things I'm mentioning are incredibly minor such as asking permission from Bulma, and in isolation the mean VERY little. However as they begin to add up and point to a pattern of behavior, they indicate a very different personality altogether.