Goku Black/Zamasu best villains in Dragon Ball since _____?

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Re: Black Goku/Zamasu best villains in Dragonball since Frieza??

Post by SaiyanZ » Sun Sep 04, 2016 2:18 am

Doctor. wrote:
Kakarotto92 wrote:I hate this preconceived notion that a villain needs to have complex, deep, gritty or sympathetic motivations or backstory in order to be considered a "good villain".
But that's exactly what he needs. A villain can be entertaining, but if he doesn't have a good motivation and a compelling background, then he isn't "good", he's just "entertaining". Sure, this doesn't mean that every villain needed to be some good guy turned bad, they could have been evil from the start, but Dragon Ball villains lack depth regardless.

Also, you're right that just because you TRY to be deep and complex, that doesn't make a good villain, but just because you TRY to have a deep and complex villain doesn't mean that he'll actually turn out to BE one.
The motivation has to be good and sensible, but they don't need a background. Its what makes Joker great before The Killing Joker came out, or what makes Hisoka from Hunter x Hunter great (minus that story Ishida wrote for him). Being entertaining is the same thing as being "good", unless its the kind of entertainment where you laugh at it because the writing is so bad. Having your villain stay mysterious can give him or her or it a captivating aura that makes them interesting.
ekrolo2 wrote:
Kakarotto92 wrote:
SaiyanZ wrote:Nah, I think Cell and Buu are better so far, because of how they ran through the entire cast, not to mention their humor. Zamasu and Black are certainly the villains whose ideologies are a bit more forefront and philosophical, but that doesn't make them better yet.
precita wrote: Sometimes just having a pure evil character who kills without reason or conscience can be just as entertaining as a complex character.
This!

I hate this preconceived notion that a villain needs to have complex, deep, gritty or sympathetic motivations or backstory in order to be considered a "good villain".

Villains with more simple and selfish motivations and goals can be just as (if not more) interesting and entertaining. They also aren't any less realistic, specially when you think about human history and society (both modern and pre-modern): power-hungry warlords and emperors, greedy capitalists, gangsters, mafia families, sadistic psychopaths who take pleasure (sometimes erotic) from watching human or animal suffering, the list goes on and on. Do any of these real life villains have any complex or deep philosophical motivations/reasons to be as they are? No, most of them are either straight up mentally ill or just lack ethics and emphaty. On the other hand, some of the best villains in fiction are just nihlistic lunatics who want to spread chaos and watch the world burn.

Then you have examples like Naruto, which despite Kishimoto's efforts to make his major villains (specially during Part II/Shippuden) these complex, philosophical and sympathetic ambigous characters, in the end they all turned out mediocre and boring villains after a while (with the exception of Nagato). At some point Naruto didn't even had villains anymore, just antagonists with a different worldview from the protagonist. This isn't necessarly bad, but the way Kishimoto executed it left much to be desired, to the point that, his more simple and standard villains like Orochimaru and most Akatsuki members ended up being much more effective and entertaining as villans than Obito, Madara or Kaguya (which in the end were all just bad rehashes of Nagato/Pain).

Give me Freeza, Piccolo Daimao, Cell or Buu any day over Shippuden's major villains.

TL;DR: Just because something tries to be deep and complex doesn't automatically mean it's better.
The problem is that 95% of Dragon Ball villains ARE nothing but evil purely for the sake of evil and that would be fine if they at least had an interesting personality to back it up but they don't. Piccolo Daimao is an arrogant asshole who enjoys to kill people because he thinks he's top dog, that's the same as Freeza which is the same as Vegeta which is the same as Piccolo Jr which is the same as Cell which is the same as Super Boo which is the same as Super 17 which is the same as most of the Shadow Dragons.

The only guys who stick out are Baby, Black, Fat Boo and Beerus. Don't even get me started on the movie bad guys cause a lot of them have even LESS going on than the main ones. As Doctor said, just because something is entertaining doesn't make it good. I can find the Cell arc entertaining but if you ask me quality wise what I think of it, I'll call it what it is: a gargantuan piece of shit. But you're also right that just because something tries to be deep and complex doesn't make it automatically better either.

Ultimately it all comes down to execution, but given how Super is Regression/Stagnation: The Show, I'll fucking take something that breaks from the general shit tier that is the villain roster of the DB franchise even if it doesn't go down in the history of anime as the greatest thing ever. Just the fact they're trying shows that there is someone involved in this thing with the beginning of an inkling of a fucking clue.
Every villain ever thinks he's top dog though. From Walter White to Darth Vader, being arrogant can lend itself to making a good character, even if its their only sole and/or good character trait. Like Gyp Rosetti from Boardwalk Empire. I don't need them to spout some philosophical thesis on the human condition. That has never been a requisite for what separates good and bad writing. And imo, I'm fine with all the DB villains' personalities, Freeza is the only one that makes me go meh because all he does is get mad. With King Piccolo, he had those quotes about how he cared about his family and Cell and Buu liked making a spectacle of things, so I find them entertaining and interesting. I just find Zamasu a little hypocritical though, because I wonder what good his godhood means if he intends to kill all mortals.
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Re: Goku Black/Zamasu best villains in Dragon Ball since _____?

Post by Rip the Jacker » Sun Sep 04, 2016 3:59 am

Best since Cell. Easily. These are entertaining characters that keep you on your toes. That's all you can really ask for. They're definitely better than buu.

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Re: Goku Black/Zamasu best villains in Dragon Ball since _____?

Post by Kishido » Sun Sep 04, 2016 5:09 am

Both are absolutely awesome

I think the only way to beat Zamasu is to beat Black... If they are rally a pair meining God of Destruction and Kaioshin we have elarnt that the only way is to kill one of them and the other is gone as well.

If not I bet Zeno-sama will get involved

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Re: Black Goku/Zamasu best villains in Dragonball since Frieza??

Post by ekrolo2 » Sun Sep 04, 2016 5:12 am

SaiyanZ wrote:Every villain ever thinks he's top dog though. From Walter White to Darth Vader, being arrogant can lend itself to making a good character, even if its their only sole and/or good character trait. Like Gyp Rosetti from Boardwalk Empire. I don't need them to spout some philosophical thesis on the human condition. That has never been a requisite for what separates good and bad writing. And imo, I'm fine with all the DB villains' personalities, Freeza is the only one that makes me go meh because all he does is get mad. With King Piccolo, he had those quotes about how he cared about his family and Cell and Buu liked making a spectacle of things, so I find them entertaining and interesting. I just find Zamasu a little hypocritical though, because I wonder what good his godhood means if he intends to kill all mortals.
The way their arrogance is portrayed is very one note and makes them all seem like carbon copies of one another. While they're winning, they all love to mess around with their opponents for sadism sake or to stroke their own egos, when they start losing? Immediately they flip shit like a temperamental five year old spouting how its impossible for some lowly being to hurt them.

Walter White and Vader are different from them. Walter's interesting to watch as he spirals into a villain and when he finally becomes one, the contrast between his new self and his old one is what makes it interesting. Vader is arrogant but not in the same way as DB villains. He's a guy who's perpetually pissed off at everything and he mastered that anger. Where as Freeza will throw a bitch fit at how he can't win, Vader will keep his anger controlled and use it for more power or as incentive to come up with a new strategy.

DB villains with their arrogance and temper tantrums WISH they could master both like Darth Vader has.
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Re: Black Goku/Zamasu best villains in Dragonball since Frieza??

Post by SaiyanZ » Mon Sep 05, 2016 12:57 am

ekrolo2 wrote:
SaiyanZ wrote:Every villain ever thinks he's top dog though. From Walter White to Darth Vader, being arrogant can lend itself to making a good character, even if its their only sole and/or good character trait. Like Gyp Rosetti from Boardwalk Empire. I don't need them to spout some philosophical thesis on the human condition. That has never been a requisite for what separates good and bad writing. And imo, I'm fine with all the DB villains' personalities, Freeza is the only one that makes me go meh because all he does is get mad. With King Piccolo, he had those quotes about how he cared about his family and Cell and Buu liked making a spectacle of things, so I find them entertaining and interesting. I just find Zamasu a little hypocritical though, because I wonder what good his godhood means if he intends to kill all mortals.
The way their arrogance is portrayed is very one note and makes them all seem like carbon copies of one another. While they're winning, they all love to mess around with their opponents for sadism sake or to stroke their own egos, when they start losing? Immediately they flip shit like a temperamental five year old spouting how its impossible for some lowly being to hurt them.

Walter White and Vader are different from them. Walter's interesting to watch as he spirals into a villain and when he finally becomes one, the contrast between his new self and his old one is what makes it interesting. Vader is arrogant but not in the same way as DB villains. He's a guy who's perpetually pissed off at everything and he mastered that anger. Where as Freeza will throw a bitch fit at how he can't win, Vader will keep his anger controlled and use it for more power or as incentive to come up with a new strategy.

DB villains with their arrogance and temper tantrums WISH they could master both like Darth Vader has.
I don't think there's much of a difference tbh. Walt at several times in the show goes into a panicked state when things don't go his way, even towards the end of Season 5. Not saying DB villains > Vader as Vader is one of the best villains of all time but the "mastering" of arrogance doesn't really come across as different to me. Even if we were to talk about other great villains like Kefka from Final Fantasy, he's the same as well. Or Bowser, or Lex Luthor or any such villain, etc.
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Re: Black Goku/Zamasu best villains in Dragonball since Frieza??

Post by Freeza9000 » Mon Sep 05, 2016 1:40 am

SaiyanZ wrote:Nah, I think Cell and Buu are better so far, because of how they ran through the entire cast, not to mention their humor. Zamasu and Black are certainly the villains whose ideologies are a bit more forefront and philosophical, but that doesn't make them better yet. Zamasu comes across as hypocritical to me, what good is him being a god/Kaioshin if all mortals are dead? More needs to be explained before I form an opinion about them being the best.
Well, Zamasu has his own idea of how to make a utopia. He clearly hates those that use their free will given by the gods that use their for bad purposes. Therefore, leading to his idea of eliminating mortals. Who knows? He might try to create civilizations that he would deem perfect and are not like the Barbarians with the SDB or all I care, at least in my headcanon.

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Re: Goku Black/Zamasu best villains in Dragon Ball since _____?

Post by KidGoku>3 » Mon Sep 05, 2016 10:39 am

The issue I have with Zamasus character is that it makes little sense to me. His reasoning to wipe out humans especially from someone in his position. His transformation is not believable to me. It comes across as forced and hypocritical. The buildup with his character has failed to convince me of his beliefs. Someone who speaks of justice, peace should not be having thoughts of genocide for no good reason. And his reasons so far ? He hates humans. Why ? How did he get to that point ? Even Goku in his interaction with him was incredibly kind towards him despite Zamasu acting more of an @ss. The only thing they showed are those alien looking creatures they called humans. Why not show you know...humans ? The good and the bad so we can see the reasoning for that transformation in Zamasu. The thought behind the creation of such a villain with philosophical viewpoints is great but the execution has lacked immensely to me. His transformation was not believable based on what we've seen.

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Re: Goku Black/Zamasu best villains in Dragon Ball since _____?

Post by Freeza9000 » Mon Sep 05, 2016 11:28 am

KidGoku>3 wrote:The issue I have with Zamasus character is that it makes little sense to me. His reasoning to wipe out humans especially from someone in his position. His transformation is not believable to me. It comes across as forced and hypocritical. The buildup with his character has failed to convince me of his beliefs. Someone who speaks of justice, peace should not be having thoughts of genocide for no good reason. And his reasons so far ? He hates humans. Why ? How did he get to that point ? Even Goku in his interaction with him was incredibly kind towards him despite Zamasu acting more of an @ss. The only thing they showed are those alien looking creatures they called humans. Why not show you know...humans ? The good and the bad so we can see the reasoning for that transformation in Zamasu. The thought behind the creation of such a villain with philosophical viewpoints is great but the execution has lacked immensely to me. His transformation was not believable based on what we've seen.
Well, the guy does hate assholes and would want to wipe out all of "humanity". I mean, he has said that he has seen numerous examples of "failures" and probably taking the action of genocide is the best action for him. There are villains that are entirely convinced that bringing apocalypse is bringing peace and are just exposed to "humanity's" bad side. Take David Nix from TommorowLand as he believes that apocalypse to the Earth is the best way because of humanity not doing anything to stop the incoming prophecy of the world ending, that is if you have watched the movie.

The term "humans" translates to "ningen". That is a derogatory term used to refer to humans or beings that are beneath divine beings. Mortals would be a more accurate term for Zamasu.

It's quite obvious why he wants to destroy mortals. He claims they have used their wisdom and free will to cause horrible deeds as what was seen of the Barbarians and countless of other planets. Not to mention, Saiyans that cause genocide all across the universe and etc. From what we have seen is that he has been exposed to many of the negatives of the universes and very little good.

I wouldn't say the way Goku greeted Zamasu is "kind" or polite, at least in Zamasu's perspective. LOL! Guy was literally chasing him all around asking for a fight and rubbing his arms, acting pretty childish. The way Zamasu sees Goku is that he's just a lowly mortal that would dare go hand to hand combat with deities higher than Goku is, a lowly mortal with an obsession to always fight. That wounded Zamasu's pride like Vegeta.

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Re: Goku Black/Zamasu best villains in Dragon Ball since _____?

Post by KingofWisdom » Sun Jan 22, 2017 3:04 am

Goku Black's backstory completely killed any potential the character had at being worthwhile. And Super Dragon Balls? Really? That was an unwelcome reminder of GT. I almost feel like it would be less stupid if Goku Black were just a random Saiyan who looked like Goku, similar to Tullece.
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Re: Goku Black/Zamasu best villains in Dragon Ball since _____?

Post by dbs fanboy » Sun Jan 22, 2017 3:33 pm

KingofWisdom wrote:Goku Black's backstory completely killed any potential the character had at being worthwhile. And Super Dragon Balls? Really? That was an unwelcome reminder of GT. I almost feel like it would be less stupid if Goku Black were just a random Saiyan who looked like Goku, similar to Tullece.
I disagree and i'm glad this wasn't the case :P
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Re: Goku Black/Zamasu best villains in Dragon Ball since _____?

Post by Merged Zamasu » Sun Jan 22, 2017 3:43 pm

I really like how they executed the dull "Evil Goku" concept. Zamasu truly is a unique and revolutionary villain.

Once a proud and intelligent Apprentice Supreme Kai, Zamasu's heart was torn by doubt for mortals, whose violence ruins the Universe. Zamasu also questioned the Gods, who did nothing to teach mortals their place. Zamasu's doubt for mortals became hatred when a mortal, Son Goku, had dared to raise fists against a God. The interesting thing, is that Zamasu's hatred for mortals was more like...fear. Zamasu feared the mortals for what they had become. For the powers they had achieved. The reason he wished for Goku's body is because he was indeed scared of the strenght a mere mortal had obtained. I also love how every version of Zamasu is different. As Black Goku, Zamasu has clearly been corrupted by the Sayan's desire to fight and grow stronger: ironically, a God has become much alike a mortal. Future Zamasu doesn't care about being the strongest, as long as he possesses the ultimate power of immortality, which he revels in. Merged Zamasu is a combination of the two: he revels in his immortality, much like Future Zamasu, but also wants to grow stronger. Merged Zamasu is also a sadist, much like Black: he willingly hurt himself with the Light of Justice so that he could achieve greater power.

Zamasu is a really ironic character when you think about it. In the end, he became no better than the filthy mortals he swore to destroy. When he realized he had a weakness, that he was not a perfect God, Zamasu became even more violent and savage, to the point there was no difference between him and a Babarian. Zamasu did everything he could to destroy mortals because of their violence, but didn't realize he himself had become as violent as a mortal. I LOVED how, in Episode 67, all Zamasu did was laughing maniacally like a psycopath. It truly represented the fact Merged Zamasu had lost what little sanity he had left.

In short, Zamasu doesn't look like the standard Dragon Ball villain at all. Dragon Ball's villains are dull characters who are evil cuz "UM, I AM EVIL RAWR". Zamasu has ideals, a compelling motivations, and a tragic yet ironic ending. In short, i wouldn't define Zamasu as "the best villain in Dragon Ball". He certainly is, in my opinion, the best, but it's up to personal taste.

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Re: Goku Black/Zamasu best villains in Dragon Ball since _____?

Post by WittyUsername » Sun Jan 22, 2017 3:47 pm

I'd say they're about on par with Baby. They're solid villains, but their motives are a little on the cliche side, and by the time they fused, they basically just became your typical egomaniacal bad guy who throws a tantrum when things don't go their way.

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Re: Goku Black/Zamasu best villains in Dragon Ball since _____?

Post by Merged Zamasu » Sun Jan 22, 2017 3:59 pm

WittyUsername wrote:I'd say they're about on par with Baby. They're solid villains, but their motives are a little on the cliche side, and by the time they fused, they basically just became your typical egomaniacal bad guy who throws a tantrum when things don't go their way.
I didn't find Merged Zamasu very clichè. He was indeed very egocentric, but he still believed what he was doing was for the good of the Universe, that he was acting based on the Justice of the Gods. Heck, Zamasu's twisted emotions made him cry for one moment. Just as Merged Zamasu's body was unstable, his emotions were also unstable: Merged Zamasu's new form reflected not only the mortality of Black Goku, but also the fear and doubt that had always been in Zamasu's heart, since the times he was but a mere Apprentice. Bad guys usually are on the wrong side, but Zamasu's ideals made sense, because it's true that most mortals are violent and the Gods completely disregard the laws of the Universe for their own, selfish desires. Zamasu was the only one who wanted to fix the corruption running rampart across the once-beautiful Universe. Zamasu was the only one to have the guts to take matters into his own hands, and didn't hide like a coward behind the "We must observe, not destroy" weak excuse.

We have spent entire pages talking about Zamasu's mentality and ideals. That alone is proof of the fact he is a fantastically written character.

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Re: Goku Black/Zamasu best villains in Dragon Ball since _____?

Post by WittyUsername » Sun Jan 22, 2017 4:11 pm

Merged Zamasu wrote:
WittyUsername wrote:I'd say they're about on par with Baby. They're solid villains, but their motives are a little on the cliche side, and by the time they fused, they basically just became your typical egomaniacal bad guy who throws a tantrum when things don't go their way.
I didn't find Merged Zamasu very clichè. He was indeed very egocentric, but he still believed what he was doing was for the good of the Universe, that he was acting based on the Justice of the Gods. Heck, Zamasu's twisted emotions made him cry for one moment. Just as Merged Zamasu's body was unstable, his emotions were also unstable: Merged Zamasu's new form reflected not only the mortality of Black Goku, but also the fear and doubt that had always been in Zamasu's heart, since the times he was but a mere Apprentice. Bad guys usually are on the wrong side, but Zamasu's ideals made sense, because it's true that most mortals are violent and the Gods completely disregard the laws of the Universe for their own, selfish desires. Zamasu was the only one who wanted to fix the corruption running rampart across the once-beautiful Universe. Zamasu was the only one to have the guts to take matters into his own hands, and didn't hide like a coward behind the "We must observe, not destroy" weak excuse.

We have spent entire pages talking about Zamasu's mentality and ideals. That alone is proof of the fact he is a fantastically written character.
They didn't really develop Zamasu's disdain towards humans though. He mentioned he hates humans (mortals) because he sees them as violent and stupid, but that only really serves to make him a massive hypocrite. He spent most of his as a villain just gloating about how wonderful he is, and how all humans must die because they are ruining his "perfect universe".

Again, he's solid enough as a villain by Dragon Ball standards, but I didn't really see anything complex about his character.

He was pretty cool as Black, but once he became his fused-self, he kind of started to annoy me. I also didn't buy the scene where he sgtarted crying. It frankly came off as more pathetic than disturbing, and Vegetto seemed to agree.

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Re: Goku Black/Zamasu best villains in Dragon Ball since _____?

Post by Merged Zamasu » Sun Jan 22, 2017 4:14 pm

He was pretty cool as Black, but once he became his fused-self, he kind of started to annoy me. I also didn't buy the scene where he sgtarted crying. It frankly came off as more pathetic than disturbing, and Vegetto seemed to agree.
I guess they wanted to show us that Zamasu, while being a God, still had mortals' emotions. We don't usually expect Gods to cry.

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Re: Goku Black/Zamasu best villains in Dragon Ball since _____?

Post by emperior » Sun Jan 22, 2017 4:15 pm

Best villain since Buu, as he was the first (new) villain since Buu.
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Re: Goku Black/Zamasu best villains in Dragon Ball since _____?

Post by WittyUsername » Sun Jan 22, 2017 4:21 pm

Merged Zamasu wrote:
He was pretty cool as Black, but once he became his fused-self, he kind of started to annoy me. I also didn't buy the scene where he sgtarted crying. It frankly came off as more pathetic than disturbing, and Vegetto seemed to agree.
I guess they wanted to show us that Zamasu, while being a God, still had mortals' emotions. We don't usually expect Gods to cry.
I can understand the idea behind it, but it didn't really fit with what we saw of him earlier. There was no indication that Zamasu genuinely felt sorry for all the destruction he caused. On the contrary, he actually seemed to enjoy all the carnage he was causing, so having him just suddenly breaking down and crying just seemed silly to me. It didn't really feel earned.

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Re: Goku Black/Zamasu best villains in Dragon Ball since _____?

Post by Freeza9000 » Wed Jan 25, 2017 2:12 am

WittyUsername wrote:I can understand the idea behind it, but it didn't really fit with what we saw of him earlier. There was no indication that Zamasu genuinely felt sorry for all the destruction he caused. On the contrary, he actually seemed to enjoy all the carnage he was causing, so having him just suddenly breaking down and crying just seemed silly to me. It didn't really feel earned.
He didn't cry because he regretted his actions, he cried because of how much he had to sacrifice by having switched bodies with Goku and having Goku fused within him.

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Re: Goku Black/Zamasu best villains in Dragon Ball since _____?

Post by Eternal Super Saiyan » Wed Jan 25, 2017 3:42 am

In my personal opinion, best since Cell. The last villain to be so mysterious/ominous was the start of the Cell saga when we barely knew anything about that "new" character (that had a plan to absorb Androids). The way they portrayed the Goku Black arc was entirely different from anything else earlier in Super. Early on in the arc I had the thoughts of "Future Trunks back again?" or "what, someone who looks like Goku is a villain now?" - but my views changed pretty damn quickly when I gave this arc a 2nd chance. Holy crap, half way through the arc, I'm satisfied I watched it. I don't think there has been a villain like this since Cell.
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Re: Goku Black/Zamasu best villains in Dragon Ball since _____?

Post by TKA » Wed Jan 25, 2017 6:31 am

They're definitely the best antagonists since... Hit.

Black and Zamasu aren't good characters, nor are they compelling villains. Their "mystery" didn't even get solved or built up in any rational manner. They sorta just told the cast what their deal was. It was shallow lipservice. I think people are caught up on the performance Nozawa gives and the "cool" factor, rather than judging them purely as characters.

Every villain in the original manga blows them out of the water. I'd say as far as work outside of the original manga goes, they're a step above the movie villains and GT, but below the other antagonists of Super and Mira, Towa and Demigra.
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