Goku Black/Zamasu best villains in Dragon Ball since _____?

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

Moderators: Kanzenshuu Staff, General Help

WittyUsername
I Live Here
Posts: 2974
Joined: Sun Dec 22, 2013 12:09 am
Location: Houston, Texas

Re: Goku Black/Zamasu best villains in Dragon Ball since _____?

Post by WittyUsername » Wed Jan 25, 2017 8:59 pm

Freeza9000 wrote:
WittyUsername wrote:I can understand the idea behind it, but it didn't really fit with what we saw of him earlier. There was no indication that Zamasu genuinely felt sorry for all the destruction he caused. On the contrary, he actually seemed to enjoy all the carnage he was causing, so having him just suddenly breaking down and crying just seemed silly to me. It didn't really feel earned.
He didn't cry because he regretted his actions, he cried because of how much he had to sacrifice by having switched bodies with Goku and having Goku fused within him.
That just makes his crying scene even more pathetic, considering that he's the one who decided to switch with Goku. No one forced him to do that.

User avatar
Doctor.
Banned
Posts: 10558
Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2014 10:02 am
Location: Portugal

Re: Goku Black/Zamasu best villains in Dragon Ball since _____?

Post by Doctor. » Wed Jan 25, 2017 9:02 pm

It's supposed to be pathetic, it's showing how delusional and pretentious Zamasu is.

User avatar
Freeza9000
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1438
Joined: Sat Jul 02, 2016 2:51 am
Location: Outside of time

Re: Goku Black/Zamasu best villains in Dragon Ball since _____?

Post by Freeza9000 » Wed Jan 25, 2017 9:14 pm

WittyUsername wrote:That just makes his crying scene even more pathetic, considering that he's the one who decided to switch with Goku. No one forced him to do that.
It's not so much that he was forced to do it or not, but the amount of sacrifice of discarding his original body for another body that is more efficient and powerful in combat. He's basically reflecting on all that not because he regretted the action, but looking at his past sacrifices. Plus, I always hate it whenever people see a villain cry, they go "OMG, DIS CRYBABY EXCUSE OF A VILLAIN IS PATHETIC!!!". It's honestly a really shallow way to try to criticize a villain. Zamasu crying shows that he has some human emotions, even if he's supposed to be your typical edgelord pretentious psychopath.
Last edited by Freeza9000 on Wed Jan 25, 2017 9:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

WittyUsername
I Live Here
Posts: 2974
Joined: Sun Dec 22, 2013 12:09 am
Location: Houston, Texas

Re: Goku Black/Zamasu best villains in Dragon Ball since _____?

Post by WittyUsername » Wed Jan 25, 2017 9:24 pm

Doctor. wrote:It's supposed to be pathetic, it's showing how delusional and pretentious Zamasu is.
That's fine I suppose, but it's not exactly the most flattering interpretation for a villain who they seemed to be trying to paint as a complex individual, when he was basically just an entitled brat.

Sure, Freeza was spoiled and snobbish as well, but he was never meant to be painted as anything other than a sadistic conqueror. With Zamasu though, it seemed like the writers were trying their hardest to make him a complex and disturbing character (especially with the way Gowasu described him after his mutation), but it didn't really work. His reasons for hating non-deities were underdeveloped and only served to make him come off as a shallow hypocrite, not some tortured soul.

Again, he was fine for what he was, but I don't think he was as complex as he's sometimes cracked up to be.

User avatar
Doctor.
Banned
Posts: 10558
Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2014 10:02 am
Location: Portugal

Re: Goku Black/Zamasu best villains in Dragon Ball since _____?

Post by Doctor. » Wed Jan 25, 2017 9:26 pm

They didn't seem to be portraying him as complex at all. He was a joke. Characters interrupted his speeches by punching him in the face, made comments about how weird he is, Beerus thought of him as a nuisance, Trunks then tells him at the end nobody cares about his justice. Nobody besides Gowasu took his ideals seriously.

WittyUsername
I Live Here
Posts: 2974
Joined: Sun Dec 22, 2013 12:09 am
Location: Houston, Texas

Re: Goku Black/Zamasu best villains in Dragon Ball since _____?

Post by WittyUsername » Wed Jan 25, 2017 9:30 pm

Freeza9000 wrote:
WittyUsername wrote:That just makes his crying scene even more pathetic, considering that he's the one who decided to switch with Goku. No one forced him to do that.
It's not so much that he was forced to do it or not, but the amount of sacrifice of discarding his original body for another body that is more efficient and powerful in combat. He's basically reflecting on all that not because he regretted the action, but looking at his past sacrifices. Plus, I always hate it whenever people see a villain cry, they go "OMG, DIS CRYBABY EXCUSE OF A VILLAIN IS PATHETIC!!!". It's honestly a really shallow way to try to criticize a villain. Zamasu crying shows that he has some human emotions, even if he's supposed to be your typical edgelord pretentious psychopath.
I never said that Zamasu crying was bad because it makes him a "crybaby", I said that his reason for crying was ridiculous. It just made him look like a contradictory idiot.

Besides, Zamasu didn't have to steal Goku's body. If he wanted to be more powerful, he could've either trained some more, or he could've have just wished to switch bodies with another God.

User avatar
Freeza9000
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1438
Joined: Sat Jul 02, 2016 2:51 am
Location: Outside of time

Re: Goku Black/Zamasu best villains in Dragon Ball since _____?

Post by Freeza9000 » Wed Jan 25, 2017 9:40 pm

WittyUsername wrote:Besides, Zamasu didn't have to steal Goku's body. If he wanted to be more powerful, he could've either trained some more, or he could've have just wished to switch bodies with another God.
The reason he stole it in the first place was because he saw how much potential Goku has in "surpassing even gods" as stated in EP 66 when Vegetto was impaling him. He at first never thought of the fact that a mere mortal can reach the realms of the gods, but after meeting Goku, he has and that's why he took Goku's body. A mortal was siding with a God of Destruction, a rare privilege for a mortal indeed. Not to mention, Whis did at one point state that if Beerus kicks the bucket, Goku can take his place as God of Destruction. And when he took Goku's body, he kept getting boosts and powering up everytime he fought, especially with Goku when he jumped from SSJ3 tier to SSJB tier. You know, the Saiyan specialty in powering up at the heat of battle. Hell, Black did also state that he sees Goku's body and power as the ultimate combat strength and would elevate him to unlimited heights.

WittyUsername
I Live Here
Posts: 2974
Joined: Sun Dec 22, 2013 12:09 am
Location: Houston, Texas

Re: Goku Black/Zamasu best villains in Dragon Ball since _____?

Post by WittyUsername » Wed Jan 25, 2017 9:48 pm

Freeza9000 wrote:
WittyUsername wrote:Besides, Zamasu didn't have to steal Goku's body. If he wanted to be more powerful, he could've either trained some more, or he could've have just wished to switch bodies with another God.
The reason he stole it in the first place was because he saw how much potential Goku has in "surpassing even gods" as stated in EP 66 when Vegetto was impaling him. He at first never thought of the fact that a mere mortal can reach the realms of the gods, but after meeting Goku, he has and that's why he took Goku's body. A mortal was siding with a God of Destruction, a rare privilege for a mortal indeed. Not to mention, Whis did at one point state that if Beerus kicks the bucket, Goku can take his place as God of Destruction. And when he took Goku's body, he kept getting boosts and powering up everytime he fought, especially with Goku when he jumped from SSJ3 tier to SSJB tier. You know, the Saiyan specialty in powering up at the heat of battle. Hell, Black did also state that he sees Goku's body and power as the ultimate combat strength and would elevate him to unlimited heights.
Given how much more powerful Beerus (who's not even one of the top 15 strongest beings in the multiverse) is than Goku, I don't buy the argument that Zamasu was genuinely worried about Goku possibly surpassing the Gods. Him switching bodies with Goku was done out of pure spite. There was nothing more to it than that.

WittyUsername
I Live Here
Posts: 2974
Joined: Sun Dec 22, 2013 12:09 am
Location: Houston, Texas

Re: Goku Black/Zamasu best villains in Dragon Ball since _____?

Post by WittyUsername » Wed Jan 25, 2017 9:51 pm

Doctor. wrote:They didn't seem to be portraying him as complex at all. He was a joke. Characters interrupted his speeches by punching him in the face, made comments about how weird he is, Beerus thought of him as a nuisance, Trunks then tells him at the end nobody cares about his justice. Nobody besides Gowasu took his ideals seriously.
I just figured that since Gowasu was supposed to have known Zamasu better than anyone else, we were just supposed to take his statements about him at face-value.

I guess Gowasu is just a really horrible judge of character. :?

User avatar
Freeza9000
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1438
Joined: Sat Jul 02, 2016 2:51 am
Location: Outside of time

Re: Goku Black/Zamasu best villains in Dragon Ball since _____?

Post by Freeza9000 » Wed Jan 25, 2017 9:56 pm

WittyUsername wrote:Given how much more powerful Beerus (who's not even one of the top 15 strongest beings in the multiverse) is than Goku, I don't buy the argument that Zamasu was genuinely worried about Goku possibly surpassing the Gods. Him switching bodies with Goku was done out of pure spite. There was nothing more to it than that.
But if Black were to continuously engage in combat, then he would get stronger and approach further heights. That is even proven when Black opens some sort of rift in space after turning his anger to power with his ki scythe. Black even stated in EP 59 that he wanted to get even stronger through Goku's body and that's like a living thrill to him. Without immortality or using the SBD for the extermination of mortals.
WittyUsername wrote:I just figured that since Gowasu was supposed to have known Zamasu better than anyone else, we were just supposed to take his statements about him at face-value. I guess Gowasu is just a really horrible judge of character. :?
That's just because Gowasu pities what Zamasu has become, a hideous hulking monster. In reality, he's nothing more than a pathetic edgelord whose ideals and speeches aren't even remotely taken seriously by characters like Mai, Trunks, Goku, Vegeta, Beerus, etc.

User avatar
SaiyanZ
OMG CRAZY REG
Posts: 814
Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2012 11:04 pm

Re: Goku Black/Zamasu best villains in Dragon Ball since _____?

Post by SaiyanZ » Mon Jan 30, 2017 9:09 am

I pretty much agree with everything WittyUsername said. As for the "pathetic" aspect of Zamasu's character, I didn't think Zamasu was pathetic, I just thought he was delusional. Not justifiably delusional within the context of the writing, but delusional nonetheless. Also, about Zamasu being a "joke" because people didn't take him seriously (a la that shedding tears moment), that just makes his character worse. Its not about him feeling empathy or having humanity or feeling human emotions or anything like that that is the problem, the problem is its just plain faceplam worthy in terms of its execution, either in trying to be funny or sympathetic (for the viewer); there are moments where villains can be flustered or cry or whatever but here it was just bad. He's giving Vegetto some impassioned speech about how Goku is a failure and part of his body and then starts crying because its for the universe? Gtfo with that shit :lol:
Tim Duncan is dope and forever.

My favorite anime and manga (characters included): https://myanimelist.net/profile/SaiyanZ?q=SaiyanZ

User avatar
Saturnine
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1480
Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2016 8:45 am

Re: Goku Black/Zamasu best villains in Dragon Ball since _____?

Post by Saturnine » Mon Jan 30, 2017 10:15 am

I think he was just as good a supervillain as Cell or Buu. Not to mention he had a lot of weight on the plot, requiring an entire timeline to be wiped out in order to end him. This marks the first time in Dragon Ball where something cannot simply be reversed by using the Dragon Balls. And that in my opinion is big in its own right.

User avatar
toadma
Newbie
Posts: 22
Joined: Sat Apr 09, 2016 8:26 pm

Re: Goku Black/Zamasu best villains in Dragon Ball since _____?

Post by toadma » Tue Jan 31, 2017 12:16 am

I never did liked Zamasu as a villain.He was the only one shoving it into our faces in every episode he was really getting annoying.His concept was interesting but it was poorly done and that ending didn't even felt like Dragon ball.The only good thing Black had was his design but in the end it was ruin by that disgusting fusion.

User avatar
Freeza9000
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1438
Joined: Sat Jul 02, 2016 2:51 am
Location: Outside of time

Re: Goku Black/Zamasu best villains in Dragon Ball since _____?

Post by Freeza9000 » Tue Jan 31, 2017 2:45 am

SaiyanZ wrote:I pretty much agree with everything WittyUsername said. As for the "pathetic" aspect of Zamasu's character, I didn't think Zamasu was pathetic, I just thought he was delusional. Not justifiably delusional within the context of the writing, but delusional nonetheless.
Can you please elaborate more on this?
SaiyanZ wrote:Also, about Zamasu being a "joke" because people didn't take him seriously (a la that shedding tears moment), that just makes his character worse. Its not about him feeling empathy or having humanity or feeling human emotions or anything like that that is the problem, the problem is its just plain faceplam worthy in terms of its execution, either in trying to be funny or sympathetic (for the viewer); there are moments where villains can be flustered or cry or whatever but here it was just bad.
I personally believe it's meant to showcase how much Zamasu has been pushed to the edge and to show how overwhelmed he is physically and mentally. Overwhelmed, of course, over the fact that these lowly mortals continue to resist against his way of justice and now that he's learning the fact that he's no longer immortal due to having a mortal fused within him. He's constantly taking damage after damage and can't heal from it. That, of course, with Vegetto mocking Zamasu due to the fact that the mortal body Zamasu took caused his immortality to be ineffective.

User avatar
SaiyanZ
OMG CRAZY REG
Posts: 814
Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2012 11:04 pm

Re: Goku Black/Zamasu best villains in Dragon Ball since _____?

Post by SaiyanZ » Tue Jan 31, 2017 9:59 am

Freeza9000 wrote:
SaiyanZ wrote:I pretty much agree with everything WittyUsername said. As for the "pathetic" aspect of Zamasu's character, I didn't think Zamasu was pathetic, I just thought he was delusional. Not justifiably delusional within the context of the writing, but delusional nonetheless.
Can you please elaborate more on this?

Delusional in that he thinks what he's doing is right, but when i say justifiably, I mean the writing did not show effectively and convincingly how he got to said delusional mindset or why he believes that.
Tim Duncan is dope and forever.

My favorite anime and manga (characters included): https://myanimelist.net/profile/SaiyanZ?q=SaiyanZ

User avatar
Freeza9000
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1438
Joined: Sat Jul 02, 2016 2:51 am
Location: Outside of time

Re: Goku Black/Zamasu best villains in Dragon Ball since _____?

Post by Freeza9000 » Fri Feb 03, 2017 1:54 am

SaiyanZ wrote:I mean the writing did not show effectively and convincingly how he got to said delusional mindset or why he believes that.
He observed the depravity of the mortals and what chaos they have caused in different kinds of planets and civilizations. Of course, considering he's about to become a Kaioshin, one who regulates and watches over life, he won't stand for mortals continuing to do what they do.

HeroR
Kicks it Old-School
Posts: 7935
Joined: Sun Feb 28, 2016 11:28 pm

Re: Goku Black/Zamasu best villains in Dragon Ball since _____?

Post by HeroR » Fri Feb 03, 2017 9:36 am

Freeza9000 wrote:
SaiyanZ wrote:I mean the writing did not show effectively and convincingly how he got to said delusional mindset or why he believes that.
He observed the depravity of the mortals and what chaos they have caused in different kinds of planets and civilizations. Of course, considering he's about to become a Kaioshin, one who regulates and watches over life, he won't stand for mortals continuing to do what they do.
We also don't need to be shown what Zamasu is talking about when he was talking about mortals flourishing, warring, and then killing themselves. We only have to look at ever villain in the series, especially Freeza, Dr. Gero, and Bibidi and Babidi. All mortals who used their great gifts of the gods to murder their fellow mortal and spread terror across the universe. One of them actually wiping out all but one of the upper gods.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

Lujin_16
Regular
Posts: 726
Joined: Tue Apr 12, 2016 7:18 pm

Re: Goku Black/Zamasu best villains in Dragon Ball since _____?

Post by Lujin_16 » Fri Feb 03, 2017 11:24 am

toadma wrote:I never did liked Zamasu as a villain.He was the only one shoving it into our faces in every episode he was really getting annoying.His concept was interesting but it was poorly done and that ending didn't even felt like Dragon ball.The only good thing Black had was his design but in the end it was ruin by that disgusting fusion.
that ending didn't even felt like Dragon ball??? It seems like you can enjoy only happy endings in Dragonball ??? i like the ending because we have seen for the
first time the heroes lose

User avatar
SaiyanZ
OMG CRAZY REG
Posts: 814
Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2012 11:04 pm

Re: Goku Black/Zamasu best villains in Dragon Ball since _____?

Post by SaiyanZ » Sat Feb 04, 2017 7:20 am

Freeza9000 wrote:
SaiyanZ wrote:I mean the writing did not show effectively and convincingly how he got to said delusional mindset or why he believes that.
He observed the depravity of the mortals and what chaos they have caused in different kinds of planets and civilizations. Of course, considering he's about to become a Kaioshin, one who regulates and watches over life, he won't stand for mortals continuing to do what they do.
And that is the only conclusion he came to after 1000+ years of watching people. Horrible reason for him to act the way he does.
Tim Duncan is dope and forever.

My favorite anime and manga (characters included): https://myanimelist.net/profile/SaiyanZ?q=SaiyanZ

User avatar
Freeza9000
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1438
Joined: Sat Jul 02, 2016 2:51 am
Location: Outside of time

Re: Goku Black/Zamasu best villains in Dragon Ball since _____?

Post by Freeza9000 » Sat Feb 04, 2017 12:55 pm

SaiyanZ wrote:
Freeza9000 wrote:
SaiyanZ wrote:I mean the writing did not show effectively and convincingly how he got to said delusional mindset or why he believes that.
He observed the depravity of the mortals and what chaos they have caused in different kinds of planets and civilizations. Of course, considering he's about to become a Kaioshin, one who regulates and watches over life, he won't stand for mortals continuing to do what they do.
And that is the only conclusion he came to after 1000+ years of watching people. Horrible reason for him to act the way he does.
I have no clue why the fuck this didn't show up in my notifications. But anyways, he's not completely wrong as there are a plethora of mortals, especially in the DB verse, that are prone to chaos and destruction. Other than creatures like Barbarians, there are also races like Saiyans causing mass genocide across the universe and even FUCKING EATING PEOPLE! Not to mention, planets being obliterated and Boo who has caused immense destruction and even managing to kill almost all the Kaioshins. Sure you may argue there's also *some* good, but *some* of that good is overshadowed by the amount of "evil", at least in Zamasu's eyes. We actually have people on this Earth on the belief that humanity is a sin, so why is it hard for you to grasp the villain's motivations? It also doesn't help the fact that almost all the gods are negligent fucktards.

Post Reply